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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/3/2008 8:54:27 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5393
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
It's hard to justify the killing of innocents. I can't do it, I don't see any Bible Verses that back it up.
Go tp the OT. Israel was command to wipe out their enemies. I am NOT saying that we are to do this, but in war inocents will be killed. They key is to minimize the loss of life.
There was no innocent people in Jericho(apart from those who spied for Joshua)... Innocent Canaanites and Philistines?
John
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/3/2008 10:33:58 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
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I wanna get this right, we(americans) know the mind of G-D. We know that He hates the same people we do. So based on this it is ok to start a war with those we feel are our enemies? Because they are G-d's enemies.
Ok
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/3/2008 10:48:10 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2752
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
There was no innocent people in Jericho(apart from those who spied for Joshua)... Innocent Canaanites and Philistines?
John
None.
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/3/2008 10:51:31 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2752
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From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
based on this it is ok to start a war with those we feel are our enemies?
Not FEEL ARE
Beruit
First Twins Towers attack
Somalia
USS Cole
Second Twin Towers
doesn't sound like they wanted to sit down for tea
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/3/2008 11:24:25 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5393
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
There was no innocent people in Jericho(apart from those who spied for Joshua)... Innocent Canaanites and Philistines?
John
None.
I know...
Someone said:It's hard to justify the killing of innocents. I can't do it, I don't see any Bible Verses that back it up
You replied: Go tp the OT. Israel was command to wipe out their enemies. I am NOT saying that we are to do this, but in war inocents will be killed. They key is to minimize the loss of life.
Where in the OT are you referring to in regards to innocents being killed?
John
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/4/2008 12:55:55 AM
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mcp
Posts: 109
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quote:
You wish to make a cause for killing innocent people and the onus is on me to show where that is wrong?
Yes, exactly. Just War and its extended criteria (including war conduct such as collateral damage) has been discussed, theorized, and argued by the church since the 4th century. They had the Bible with all your verses as well; yet you have found comfort that there are no higher principles than non-action when a few innocents may die for the many.
And only on one verse have you weighed in on this concept of never an innocent shall be killed (based on what you have supplied us here); the same verse which you manage to construe this message:
"thou shalt not kill" = "thou shalt kill he who attempts murder on you, else you commit suicide"
This is outlandish deduction.
Was St Stephen suicidal (he could've come out swinging)? What was Jesus' mission as he lay down his life? Did he sin in an earthly death, in order to be saving us from spiritual death?
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/4/2008 1:23:07 AM
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mcp
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quote:
Do you really believe the above is out of line? Do you think if a JDAM bomb landed in a neighborhood in some subrub of America and killed 12 people to get one bad guy there wouldn't be a uproar? Please...
I don't think race is the proper line of demarcation; it may be more nationalism. If our nation is attacked, we take it personally. Hence, when the AQ hit our towers, the whole nation was outraged. Few, if any, were looking at the towers saying "it's ashame we lost all those white folks". Is there racism in the US; of course. Is it the form for every clique or ally; no.
quote:
I didn't make these up myself... From years of debating on this forum these are part of collection... I used to have a web site that had quotes like these on it...
Well, my point then is that these views held by posters are irrelevant to serious leaders making hard decisions (like our case in point). Plus, while some leaders may deserve derision for narcisism or whatever, I also don't think it fair to broadly paint all war decisions with the viewpoints of ignorant or unrefined dolts on a website. Not that you would, but you inferred it in this thread towards someone.
Blues Bros. were appropriate to your point about some people's reasoning; but with some people, they are always on a mission from God, no matter what they are doing.
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/4/2008 1:54:55 AM
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TQ_Fan_4_Life
Posts: 3429
Joined: 5/8/2007
From: Fort Rucker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: trainfan
quote:
The sad thing here is that there are 11 families today that are not celebrating this military action. I wonder how they must feel about all of this. I wonder if the parents feel their kids' deaths were worth it. I wonder how this makes them feel about our country.
Did you all read the link in the OP?
It points out that under this guy the group he led has adopted Iraq style tactics of IED's and assassinations. They have also been responsible for attaks on journalists and aid workers. There is a tape of this guy ordering an attack on peacekeepers. The violence created by this guy has triggered Africa's worst humanitarian crisis and clashes in the capital has killed 6500 people in the last year alone. The article also quoted some terrorist saying that there was two "important" people killed in the airstrike.
Just a little food for thought. Since the top Al Qaida people are rarely without body guards to do their dirty work for them how many of the people who were killed were actually terrorists? Also since terrorists now train women and disabled people to be suicide bombers how many women were actually innocent bystanders?
I wonder how the Somali's feel about the death of this guy who has done nothing but further destablize their home and turn in into more of mess than it already was.
the liberal fruits((and yes I consider liberals fruits)) only they know what the Somalians should feel. They can't feel for themselves so naturally they hate us because we try to help them. only because it somehow will get a liberal into office so they can farther destroy the country we live in and I proudly defend.
now to move on. about the Bible, I suppose since liberals must have wrote it, no wait, it condemns homosexuality((which the democratic party is all for their rights)), and crime(((oh boy. ACLU will not like that one. again liberals))) yet liberlas are freely quoting it to help themselves they think. I simply want to ask, what makes the wars different in Biblical days? when it talks of killing every man woman and child in the lands invaded, aren't they innocents? oh no, they were against the Christians. well America as a whole believes in God. that is a main reason the fanatics want us dead. Because we are"infidels" and killing us will give them 40 or 75 or who knows how many virgins in the afterlife. what makes us so different now? is it because we didnt pucker up and ask the liberals? and heck yes I am 110% republican
_____________________________
Let go of a sanitized Christianity and get back to the powerful, raw and ancient faith that chooses revolution over compromise, peril over safety, and passion over lukewarm and watered-down religion.
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/4/2008 2:21:26 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5393
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcp
Yes, exactly.
I don't agree...
quote:
"thou shalt not kill" = "thou shalt kill he who attempts murder on you, else you commit suicide"
This is outlandish deduction.
No it's not... I don't have a right to give my life in such a manner...
quote:
Was St Stephen suicidal (he could've come out swinging)?
I am not Stephen...
quote:
What was Jesus' mission as he lay down his life?
To lay down His life for His sheep... I am not Jesus...
John
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/4/2008 2:24:53 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5393
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcp
I don't think race is the proper line of demarcation; it may be more nationalism.
I don't agree...
quote:
If our nation is attacked, we take it personally. Hence, when the AQ hit our towers, the whole nation was outraged. Few, if any, were looking at the towers saying "it's ashame we lost all those white folks". Is there racism in the US; of course. Is it the form for every clique or ally; no.
For most people it was a chance to thump their chest and make remarks about Arabs...
John
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/4/2008 2:31:28 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5393
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TQ_Fan_4_Life
I simply want to ask, what makes the wars different in Biblical days? when it talks of killing every man woman and child in the lands invaded, aren't they innocents? oh no, they were against the Christians.
When I see the United States military march around a terrorist camp for seven days in dead silence I'll take notice...
quote:
well America as a whole believes in God.
No, it doesn't... It believes in many things that are said to be God... In America God is more of a term than the God of the Bible... Half the people that claim Christ believe in abortion, homosexual rights, and other ungoldy concepts...
John
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/4/2008 9:07:15 AM
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TQ_Fan_4_Life
Posts: 3429
Joined: 5/8/2007
From: Fort Rucker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: TQ_Fan_4_Life
I simply want to ask, what makes the wars different in Biblical days? when it talks of killing every man woman and child in the lands invaded, aren't they innocents? oh no, they were against the Christians.
When I see the United States military march around a terrorist camp for seven days in dead silence I'll take notice...
quote:
well America as a whole believes in God.
No, it doesn't... It believes in many things that are said to be God... In America God is more of a term than the God of the Bible... Half the people that claim Christ believe in abortion, homosexual rights, and other ungoldy concepts...
John
liberals.
and nowa days, terrorists will attack if they see you marching.
_____________________________
Let go of a sanitized Christianity and get back to the powerful, raw and ancient faith that chooses revolution over compromise, peril over safety, and passion over lukewarm and watered-down religion.
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/4/2008 1:39:17 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5393
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TQ_Fan_4_Life
liberals.
Well they are roughly half the population and most of the floating middle that sticks its finger in the air to see where things are going doesn't care one way or another about God... So as a whole America believes in very little...
quote:
and nowa days, terrorists will attack if they see you marching.
It's all about faith...
John
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/4/2008 1:49:31 PM
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darren.beene
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Joined: 9/14/2007
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I still say the best thing to do woold be just kill all the Moslems, terrists or not. Tne ones who aint terrists now culd become terrists tomorra if we dont take care athem raghead heatherns now before they ge the chaince to kill all us TRUE CONSERVATIVE GOD FEARIN AMERCANS!!! Unless we stand up for are selves now we mite be living under a Moslem dictatership tomorra! Mark my word, they're leaders is clear that they wont to take over the world and kill everbody who aint a Moslem. So its kill or be killt!
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/4/2008 2:20:00 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1964
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: darren.beene
I still say the best thing to do woold be just kill all the Moslems, terrists or not. Tne ones who aint terrists now culd become terrists tomorra if we dont take care athem raghead heatherns now before they ge the chaince to kill all us TRUE CONSERVATIVE GOD FEARIN AMERCANS!!! Unless we stand up for are selves now we mite be living under a Moslem dictatership tomorra! Mark my word, they're leaders is clear that they wont to take over the world and kill everbody who aint a Moslem. So its kill or be killt!
I think this is someone's troll account.
Nobody could argue this with a straight face.
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/4/2008 3:48:20 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5586
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Well they are roughly half the population and most of the floating middle that sticks its finger in the air to see where things are going doesn't care one way or another about God... So as a whole America believes in very little...
And so how long have you been a student and admirant of Rev. Wright?
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/4/2008 3:51:35 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5586
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
I think this is someone's troll account.
Nobody could argue this with a straight face.
You are probably correct, we God fearing Americans just need to ahve a little patience and God will take care of all non-believers.
If you don't thinks so just read the 19th Chaper of Revalations.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/4/2008 4:43:44 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5393
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Well they are roughly half the population and most of the floating middle that sticks its finger in the air to see where things are going doesn't care one way or another about God... So as a whole America believes in very little...
And so how long have you been a student and admirant of Rev. Wright?
Thsnks
RC
No longer than yourself... :) Btw... I won't bite...
Are you going to deny that roughly half of America is on the Left and the middle swings ether way? And that even in the body of Christ roughly half believe that abortion and gay rights are just fine with Jesus?
Rev Wright is wrong, but so are those who pretend everything is ok...
John
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/4/2008 6:00:12 PM
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Closie
Posts: 326
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I guess when the right color of people start being the collateral damage people will take notice..
Well, like I said, we saw 3000 of our own people die, not as collateral, but as the primary target, and still many would sit back and do nothing. I am fairly certain you could kill dozens of Americans without producing much of a reaction from the populace at large in terms of hunting down the perpetrators; 9/11 wasn't the first attack on Americans.
I totally agree. Have you read about the terror in South Central L.A over the past year or two? I'm not sure if dozens of Americans have been killed, but it's close. Innocent kids, not involved with gangs but victims of the gang terrorists. I read about one who was killed because he wouldn't tell what gang he was with - and he wasn't in one! 9/11 wasn't the first attack on Americans and sadly it wasn't the last.
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/4/2008 6:10:55 PM
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Closie
Posts: 326
Joined: 4/14/2005
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PS: All Christians should be sad anytime someone dies without accepting Jesus as his/her Savior. In the case of Somalia, that includes all killed in the airstrike. We don't know why the people were in the house with the target. They could have been held hostage, been duped, been complicit, or just passing by. Let's hope that the powers at be will make every effort to find out which was the case in the situation to make sure that if the 11 were indeed innocent, that it won't happen again.
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/4/2008 6:12:41 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5393
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Closie
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I guess when the right color of people start being the collateral damage people will take notice..
Well, like I said, we saw 3000 of our own people die, not as collateral, but as the primary target, and still many would sit back and do nothing. I am fairly certain you could kill dozens of Americans without producing much of a reaction from the populace at large in terms of hunting down the perpetrators; 9/11 wasn't the first attack on Americans.
I totally agree. Have you read about the terror in South Central L.A over the past year or two? I'm not sure if dozens of Americans have been killed, but it's close. Innocent kids, not involved with gangs but victims of the gang terrorists. I read about one who was killed because he wouldn't tell what gang he was with - and he wasn't in one! 9/11 wasn't the first attack on Americans and sadly it wasn't the last.
That is gang members(terrorist) are killing the kids, not the government while attempting to kill gang members(terrorist)...
John
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/4/2008 7:11:20 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2752
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
not involved with gangs but victims of the gang terrorists
Not to take this on another direction, but Obama is opposed to the death penalty for gang land killings. Then how would he treat a terrorist attack in one of our cities?
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/4/2008 8:52:19 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
Beruit
First Twins Towers attack
Somalia
USS Cole
Second Twin Towers
doesn't sound like they wanted to sit down for tea
Us helped Sadaam to fight Iran for 8 years, then we killed him.
Nicagurara-CIA helped those in power torture those inncoent people
Iraq-Desert Storm
Haiti-took their democaratically president. We have ignored them since Jefferson
We joined WW2 when Japan bombed us, but we did not help the Jews for 7 years.
But we don't fight for Sudanese Christians in Darfar.
WE could pick some better fights.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/4/2008 9:53:08 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2752
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
But we don't fight for Sudanese Christians in Darfar.
But I thought we weren't to get involved in ethnic battles
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