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RE: No comment. Well, maybe a short not - 5/15/2008 1:49:10 PM
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earthless
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Great quote from there: "Since, when does God need money for revival? How on earth can anyone with a conscience make the claim that if you send them money that God would turn that into revival? We thought the Bible said that God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. God is loaded. Why would God make revival contingent upon you sending money to Todd Bentley?"
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RE: No comment. Well, maybe a short not - 5/15/2008 2:13:53 PM
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lw9
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quote:
funny_girl: I just didn't know if you all are saying anything supernatural is impossible? One guy shot down anyone that that I felt was worthy to be mentioned.
Like rlj, I also don't see that anyone is saying that. I think we've stated several times that we do believe in true miracles as well as false miracles [meaning the source of power is not God], just as the Bible points out. Besides the emotional hysteria and possbly some faked experiences, I personally believe something very supernatural is happening in Lakeland, but I do not believe it's of God.
quote:
I have more doubts than hope about this new Florida thing. I wouldn’t be running after it. I still think that despite us, God can save and heal people that are truly seeking Him.
I believe so, too. I think the problem with something like Todd Bentley's 'revival' in particular is that people are going to have to toss God's word aside in order to justify what's happening and what's being taught because there's no way to reconcile it Biblically, and they will have to completely ignore the clear warning signs that should have been evident had they stayed grounded in His word. Seeking God doesn't mean chasing after emotional or miraculous experiences. We have to seek Him through His word and receive a love of His word. We can't say on the one hand we love God and want more of Him while on the other hand ignore His word. I'm not saying this applies to every single person going down there, but in hearing many of the reasons people are flocking there, it sounds as if many want the excitement and the miracles rather than the truth.
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RE: No comment. Well, maybe a short not - 5/15/2008 3:51:25 PM
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itsnotwhatuthink
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My family and I had, a good number of years ago now, a life altering experience with a so-called Evangelist. I won't mention denomination or names on here - I still look over my shoulder. This individual turned out to be a complete charlitan and has caused untold misery and pain to thousands - literally, thousands. I have never been what I should have been and my family has suffered - as have many others. My biggest question over the years was always "Why God? Why?"
No one on here knows me, but I can say with complete honesty and no shame that I earnestly sought after God with all my heart and held nothing back. Of course, it was not God who was responsible for all that happened but rather our ignorance of the devil's devices and the part that liar plays in Christians being fooled. But make no mistake, we are responsible for what we do know and what we do not. The devil does not care if we don't know something - he does not play fair. Why doesn't God intervene if people are honest but are honestly fooled? Only reading the whole Bible will explain that - we are led away be our own desires and sins - if we like what we hear and it is not the truth, then maybe we have itching ears. I do believe the OT prophets dealt with Israel on that line over and over. Disaster follows. And sometimes we just plain old suffer for the sins of others. What they do to us.
I am so weary of the Todds out there but they continue to exist because there is a place for them. There are people who live for it and once upon a time I was one. The only thing that saved me, was that I really did love God - I had a demonic influence in my life that I received at one of those miracle meetings and only the prayer of an honest man delivered me from it. Of course there were 7 years of me begging God for help.
There is no way I can explain - or at this weary point even really want to - all that happened or how I continue to 'pay' for my involvement - innocent though it was - in this dispicable individual's evil demonic ministry. And that, folks, is what is going to happen to many people who follow after this Todd Tatoo individual.
Come on, barking like a dog and making chicken noises are demonstrations of the Holy Spirit? Common sense should say otherwise and the mess I was involved in did not even have this type of stupid nonsense to give it away - it was far more subtle - but things are evolving rapidly and apparently it takes less to fool a Christian than it used to. No, I'm not being smart - it's the truth.
I am so so sorry that this is going on. How I wish it were not so. What we all should do - those who believe that this type of activity is not Godly - what we need to do - is pray that God would expose the charlitans for what they are. These people are deceived and behind that deception are strong demons who have nothing better to do (than deceive)
I have so much to say and absolutely nothing to say. Some of you may understand what I mean by that.
Just to look at Todd you know something is not quite right - to be polite - these guys (Todd Tatoo types) dress like the world - only look more stupid in their vapid attemps at authenticity - and have haircuts like the world - only more so - play music like the world - so sad - and have lyrics that they think are cutting edge - EYE HATH NOT SEEN, NOR EAR HEARD, THE THINGS THAT GOD HATH PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM. Pardon the KJV - I am old enough to have learned that verse in that translation - for those who frown on the King's Olde English :-)
If Paul had conducted himself in the same manner many of these so-called spirit filled Christians do, I think he would have had to have hung out with the Temple prostitutes to make himself authentic - and got to know them better too.
I like the book of Ecclesiates because it really sums up well the tiresome goings-on in this world. There is nothing new under the sun - now that's found in the Bible, so is it true or not? And Solomon should know as he was the wisest man who EVER lived.
OK - this is turning into a Blog now - if you got this far, thanks for listening.
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RE: No comment. Well, maybe a short not - 5/15/2008 4:04:55 PM
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howling wind
Posts: 194
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Texas, y'all...
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lairdutemps
My family and I had, a good number of years ago now, a life altering experience with a so-called Evangelist. I won't mention denomination or names on here - I still look over my shoulder. This individual turned out to be a complete charlitan and has caused untold misery and pain to thousands - literally, thousands. I have never been what I should have been and my family has suffered - as have many others. My biggest question over the years was always "Why God? Why?"
No one on here knows me, but I can say with complete honesty and no shame that I earnestly sought after God with all my heart and held nothing back. Of course, it was not God who was responsible for all that happened but rather our ignorance of the devil's devices and the part that liar plays in Christians being fooled. But make no mistake, we are responsible for what we do know and what we do not. The devil does not care if we don't know something - he does not play fair. Why doesn't God intervene if people are honest but are honestly fooled? Only reading the whole Bible will explain that - we are led away be our own desires and sins - if we like what we hear and it is not the truth, then maybe we have itching ears. I do believe the OT prophets dealt with Israel on that line over and over. Disaster follows. And sometimes we just plain old suffer for the sins of others. What they do to us.
I am so weary of the Todds out there but they continue to exist because there is a place for them. There are people who live for it and once upon a time I was one. The only thing that saved me, was that I really did love God - I had a demonic influence in my life that I received at one of those miracle meetings and only the prayer of an honest man delivered me from it. Of course there were 7 years of me begging God for help.
There is no way I can explain - or at this weary point even really want to - all that happened or how I continue to 'pay' for my involvement - innocent though it was - in this dispicable individual's evil demonic ministry. And that, folks, is what is going to happen to many people who follow after this Todd Tatoo individual.
Come on, barking like a dog and making chicken noises are demonstrations of the Holy Spirit? Common sense should say otherwise and the mess I was involved in did not even have this type of stupid nonsense to give it away - it was far more subtle - but things are evolving rapidly and apparently it takes less to fool a Christian than it used to. No, I'm not being smart - it's the truth.
I am so so sorry that this is going on. How I wish it were not so. What we all should do - those who believe that this type of activity is not Godly - what we need to do - is pray that God would expose the charlitans for what they are. These people are deceived and behind that deception are strong demons who have nothing better to do (than deceive)
I have so much to say and absolutely nothing to say. Some of you may understand what I mean by that.
Just to look at Todd you know something is not quite right - to be polite - these guys (Todd Tatoo types) dress like the world - only look more stupid in their vapid attemps at authenticity - and have haircuts like the world - only more so - play music like the world - so sad - and have lyrics that they think are cutting edge - EYE HATH NOT SEEN, NOR EAR HEARD, THE THINGS THAT GOD HATH PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM. Pardon the KJV - I am old enough to have learned that verse in that translation - for those who frown on the King's Olde English :-)
If Paul had conducted himself in the same manner many of these so-called spirit filled Christians do, I think he would have had to have hung out with the Temple prostitutes to make himself authentic - and got to know them better too.
I like the book of Ecclesiates because it really sums up well the tiresome goings-on in this world. There is nothing new under the sun - now that's found in the Bible, so is it true or not? And Solomon should know as he was the wisest man who EVER lived.
OK - this is turning into a Blog now - if you got this far, thanks for listening.
Wonderful testimony! My prayers are with you...
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They banned my last avatar!
http://londoncalling67.blog.com
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RE: No comment. Well, maybe a short not - 5/15/2008 4:14:25 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lairdutemps
My family and I had, a good number of years ago now, a life altering experience with a so-called Evangelist. I won't mention denomination or names on here
Biblically speaking, you should. God forbid more get hurt because you didn't warn them.
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RE: No comment. Well, maybe a short not - 5/15/2008 4:24:35 PM
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lw9
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Hello lairdutemps, and welcome!!
quote:
I am so weary of the Todds out there but they continue to exist because there is a place for them.
I think many of us are so weary of the Todds, as you might notice in this thread. The false teachers grow more arrogant, and the false signs and wonders grow more blatant. But you also pointed out one of the key problems of why they keep coming: There is a place for them and a crowd to prop them up. Until that changes, there will be more Todd's, more false 'revivals', and more false signs and wonders. All we can do is continue to point out the truth and pray that people's eyes are opened to what's happening.
quote:
Why doesn't God intervene if people are honest but are honestly fooled? Only reading the whole Bible will explain that - we are led away be our own desires and sins - if we like what we hear and it is not the truth, then maybe we have itching ears. I do believe the OT prophets dealt with Israel on that line over and over. Disaster follows. And sometimes we just plain old suffer for the sins of others. What they do to us.
Excellent observations.
quote:
OK - this is turning into a Blog now - if you got this far, thanks for listening.
God bless you. It's clear that you and your family have been through so much and I'm so sorry for that, but I praise God that He showed you the truth and brought you out. That is very good news, and I'm really glad you stopped by to share it. Because of your firsthand experience, you can witness to others about these kinds of dangers. You may help someone else out of the fog, and that's the upside.
quote:
My family and I had, a good number of years ago now, a life altering experience with a so-called Evangelist. I won't mention denomination or names on here
quote:
earthless: Biblically speaking, you should. God forbid more get hurt because you didn't warn them.
I have to agree with earthless. If this particular church or person is still deceiving people, you should warn others away from him by name and explain why. Otherwise, someone else might fall into the same trap you did.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 5/15/2008 4:36:18 PM >
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RE: No comment. Well, maybe a short not - 5/15/2008 4:28:22 PM
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wintery
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J. Lee Grady of Charisma magazine finds the courage to speak about Todd Bentley and Lakeland:
"But I would be dishonest if I told you that I wholeheartedly embraced what I saw in Lakeland. Something disturbed me, but I kept my mouth shut for three weeks while I prayed, got counsel from respected ministry leaders and searched my heart to make sure I was not harboring a religious spirit. The last thing we need today is more mean-spirited heresy hunters blasting other Christians."
Yeah. Then he proceeds to outline "words of warning" which are very much the same as have been expressed here.
Thank you, Mr. Grady!
Read it here.
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RE: No comment. Well, maybe a short not - 5/15/2008 4:33:21 PM
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earthless
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Well, that is certainly not the norm for Charisma Magazine.
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RE: No comment. Well, maybe a short not - 5/15/2008 4:36:01 PM
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2shaye
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I've been reading this thread each day with much interest. Some at my church have recommended this guy and that has me confused. Dh just briefly looked around on his site and didn't see the big deal.
I am sincerely seeking. I'm not a hit and run poster, as you can tell by my post count. I grew up in the Conservative Baptist Church, then within the past few years have been attending an AG church. I've been spiritually growing and growing like never before and I'm excited about my relationship with Christ. He is bringing to light many things which I never thought were sins and I'm slowly dealing with each new "thing". I love my pastor and my church. At first, I thought they did some pretty whacky things, but since I know the people now, I don't think they are quite so whacky.
And now this. I don't agree with a lot of you, and that's okay. I'm not sure about this Bentley guy. That's just where I'm at right now. I've hesitated posting because I didn't have the courage to go against the main flow of this conversation. But you guys seem like a gentle bunch...... I must say, though, it's kinda hard to learn from the sarcasm. I much prefer the gentleness of some of the posters - thank you for that.
One thing I'd like to ask those of you who are more on the conservative side - what does "revival" look like to you?
Thanks for listening.
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RE: No comment. Well, maybe a short not - 5/15/2008 4:47:35 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 2shaye
One thing I'd like to ask those of you who are more on the conservative side - what does "revival" look like to you?
Thanks for listening.
Firstly, I don't know if I could be considered conservative on this issue. I spent a good number of years pastoring a church that was Pentecostal and depending on the service, Charismatic even. it saddens me that those who hold Scripture to be the rule, the standard, the litmus for all that is Christian - are viewed as "conservative" and not just as those that adhere to the Bible.
Not saying that in a bad way about you, not at all. Lord knows tone is a hard thing to sometimes convey properly over the Internet.
When it comes to this topic we just have to look at a recent example with the Toronto "Blessing". On January 20th, 1994, a Pentecostal pastor named Randy Clark spoke at the church and gave his testimony of how he would get drunk in the Spirit and laugh uncontrollably.
In response to this testimony, the congregation erupted in pandemonium with people laughing, growling, dancing, shaking, and even some stuck in positions of paralysis. These experiences were attributed to the Holy Spirit entering people's bodies. The pastor of the church, John Arnott, referred to it as a big Holy Spirit party.
The moniker "Toronto Blessing" was given, and the church was soon in the international spotlight.
When this "blessing" is held to the light of Scripture, however, it can scarcely be called a blessing; abomination, maybe, but not blessing. Absolutely nowhere in Scripture can one find any precedent for what was happening at the Toronto Airport church, except, perhaps, the physical conditions demon possessed people suffered.
In fact, the Toronto Airport church became so embroiled in emotional outbursts and psychological displays that Pastor Arnott ceased preaching salvation, and instead preached about the party of the Holy Spirit.
Experiences were being held in higher authority than Scripture. This was even too much for the already extremely charismatic Vineyard movement, which severed ties with the Toronto Airport church in 1995, prompting the name change to Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship.
A lot can and should be said about what Scripture says about revival - a believer's focus needs to be Jesus Christ, the "author and perfecter of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2), not on oneself, ones experiences, or even the Holy Spirit.
The Toronto Blessing focuses on the latter, to the detriment of Biblical faith. Believers can have fun, dance, sing, even shout to the Lord. However, when a worship service resembles the dream of a demented schizophrenic, and attributed to the work of the Holy Spirit, only one word comes to mind: heresy.
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RE: No comment. Well, maybe a short not - 5/15/2008 4:51:55 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1187
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quote:
wintery: J. Lee Grady of Charisma magazine finds the courage to speak about Todd Bentley and Lakeland:
He does admit to and point out some of the obvious occult things happening and being promoted, but yet he's still supporting the movement and making excuses for it, and that I do not understand. Perhaps this is, like, unheard of for Charisma magazine to question one of their own... I don't know. I don't understand the extreme hesitancy to just come right out and call a spade a spade, especially when the spade has made itself very clear in person and on video. I just wish he had been more firm in his stance.
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RE: No comment. Well, maybe a short not - 5/15/2008 4:57:44 PM
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2shaye
Posts: 5151
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: 2shaye
One thing I'd like to ask those of you who are more on the conservative side - what does "revival" look like to you?
Thanks for listening.
Firstly, I don't know if I could be considered conservative on this issue. I spent a good number of years pastoring a church that was Pentecostal and depending on the service, Charismatic even. it saddens me that those who hold Scripture to be the rule, the standard, the litmus for all that is Christian - are viewed as "conservative" and not just as those that adhere to the Bible.
Not saying that in a bad way about you, not at all. Lord knows tone is a hard thing to sometimes convey properly over the Internet.
Thank you, Earthless. I did not mean any offense at all. I'm just going on my limited experiences. Baptist = conservative, AG = not conservative. This is obviously over generalized and I know there is much more to it - again, just my own limited experience.
Also, thank you Wintery, for the link to the article by J. Lee Grady. I will be reading that one through several times. He seemed like he really knew what he was talking about. I think I may even shoot my pastor an email with that link and get his opinion as well. It will be a must read for my dh too!
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RE: No comment. Well, maybe a short not - 5/15/2008 5:05:20 PM
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laura...
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quote:
One thing I'd like to ask those of you who are more on the conservative side - what does "revival" look like to you?
Like Earthless, I don't know if I could be called "conservative". &:) Most of my life as a Christian has been spent in an AoG church. I would still be in one if I hadn't married a man who is committed to a nondenominational church.
I believe there are legitimate manifistation of the Holy Spirit. Most of what is described of this Lakeland Revival I would not classify as such.
What does true revival look like?
* Repentance -- weeping over one's own sins and the sins of the world.
* Changed lives -- leaving behind the old ways of sin and embracing a new life of following Jesus Christ.
* Prayer -- a deep, abiding, unrelenting desire to pray.
* The production of fruit of the Holy Spirit -- love, joy, peace, patience, self-control, perseverance, faith, etc.
* Good works -- feeding the poor, housing the homeless, ministering to the down-trodden
* and FINALLY and MOST IMPORTANTLY -- lifting up the Name of all Names, Jesus Christ. Proclaiming HIS gospel. Not the name or gospel of Emma, the angel. But, the only Name by which we can be saved "JESUS".
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This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: No comment. Well, maybe a short not - 5/15/2008 5:19:20 PM
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earthless
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Laura,
Amen, sister. Your outline of what true/Godly revival is is spot on.
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RE: No comment. Well, maybe a short not - 5/15/2008 5:20:22 PM
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csl7037
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lairdutemps
There is no way I can explain - or at this weary point even really want to - all that happened or how I continue to 'pay' for my involvement - innocent though it was - in this dispicable individual's evil demonic ministry. And that, folks, is what is going to happen to many people who follow after this Todd Tatoo individual.
This is what has so many of us so upset by what's going on right down the road from me. It's not harmless foolishness. It's dangerous. Thanks for sharing.
Wintery, thanks for the link!
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RE: No comment. Well, maybe a short not - 5/15/2008 5:25:02 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1187
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Ditto laura's most excellent reply.
Edit to add: I just thought of this. Since I've never run in Pentecostal circles, the term 'revival' is not one I was even familar with until recently and it's not a term I've heard used any of the churches I've attended, and it's not a term I use myself. But no matter. Whatever people want to call it, laura's post outlines the process and results of the gospel being preached, Christ focused on and confessed, and hearts and lives being changed.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 5/15/2008 5:47:02 PM >
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RE: No comment. Well, maybe a short not - 5/15/2008 5:28:15 PM
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itsnotwhatuthink
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I was 20 yrs old when I got mixed up in a so called revival. I am now 55 - there is no point in naming names etc. Otherwise I would. Wouldn't you like to know. I don't care anymore - it's all the new ones springing up.
Seriously, the NT warns over and over and over about deception - but who believes that? I mean "Jesus would never let me be deceived." That, is deception itself.
The devil comes as an angel of light - sometimes that light is so bright, you are blinded by it.
Listen, "You have not seen how bad it is going to get." If you have ANY check in your spirit, stop and ask God why you have that check. I had one, a very small one, and I ignored it. But I remember it.
Just because it feels good does not mean it is good. Hey, it sure did not feel good to Jesus when He hung on the cross - good thing He didn't go by feelings.
Todd will have his day in front of God. I think he will hear this "I never knew you."
< Message edited by lairdutemps -- 5/15/2008 5:56:19 PM >
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RE: No comment. Well, maybe a short not - 5/15/2008 5:30:47 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5026
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lairdutemps
I was 20 yrs old when I got mixed up in a so called revival. I am now 55 - there is no point in naming names etc.
There definitely is if those individuals (or their off springs/associates) are still in the circuit/limelight. It is biblical to name names, to warn the brethren.
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RE: No comment. Well, maybe a short not - 5/15/2008 5:48:35 PM
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itsnotwhatuthink
Posts: 111
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o
< Message edited by lairdutemps -- 5/15/2008 8:34:09 PM >
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RE: No comment. Well, maybe a short not - 5/15/2008 5:49:10 PM
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dwtramm
Posts: 125
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quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
quote:
One thing I'd like to ask those of you who are more on the conservative side - what does "revival" look like to you?
Like Earthless, I don't know if I could be called "conservative". &:) Most of my life as a Christian has been spent in an AoG church. I would still be in one if I hadn't married a man who is committed to a nondenominational church.
I believe there are legitimate manifistation of the Holy Spirit. Most of what is described of this Lakeland Revival I would not classify as such.
What does true revival look like?
* Repentance -- weeping over one's own sins and the sins of the world.
* Changed lives -- leaving behind the old ways of sin and embracing a new life of following Jesus Christ.
* Prayer -- a deep, abiding, unrelenting desire to pray.
* The production of fruit of the Holy Spirit -- love, joy, peace, patience, self-control, perseverance, faith, etc.
* Good works -- feeding the poor, housing the homeless, ministering to the down-trodden
* and FINALLY and MOST IMPORTANTLY -- lifting up the Name of all Names, Jesus Christ. Proclaiming HIS gospel. Not the name or gospel of Emma, the angel. But, the only Name by which we can be saved "JESUS".
This is a great list. I personally would add one thing.
The true preaching of God's Word. Not pop theology and the latest fad.
By the way, I'm a former A/G Pastor and current Non-Denominational Pastor. If I would have to classify myself it would be Reforming Pentecostal.
So, I don't know exactly if I fit in the conservative catagory or not that you are looking for.
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RE: No comment. Well, maybe a short not - 5/15/2008 7:40:05 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1475
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
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Thank you Laura for an EXCELLENT description of TRUE revival. 
Revival must begin with ones self before it can spread.
This Lakeland fiasco, like Brownsville and Toronto before it are as far away from TRUE revival as one can get.
I remember reading that Brownsville was PLANNED and not the spontaneous outporing like they claimed. John Kilpatrick's wife and others went up to TACF with the intent to bring the chaos back to their church. In addition, studies showed that there was absolutely NO change in the the Pensacola area. If there was true revival, hearts would have changed, more people would have come to the Lord, marriages would have flourished, crime would have dropped, etc. NONE of that happene during the Brownsville "revival"
They are nothing but orchestrated freak shows centered around experience over substance.
Todd Bentley is a false teacher and a false prophet. And so as to not be accused of gossip, I would have NO problem telling that to his face!
I don't know what upsets me more...These pulpit pimps that PERVERT the Word of God for profit, or the biblically ILLITERATE lap-dogs that chase around the latest "signs and wonders"
< Message edited by Soxfan -- 5/15/2008 7:46:09 PM >
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"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: No comment. Well, maybe a short not - 5/15/2008 10:53:27 PM
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gaylel1
Posts: 1465
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southern California, the land of Fruit and nuts...
Status: offline
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You know, Bentley's antics reminds me of the late A.A. Allen back in the day and his "Carnaval Travelling Salvation Show." (Anyone remember him?--if you were not born in 1959 or so, this was one of the evanglists who strive on this sort of thing).
But Bentley and his irk is worse because I was watching the circus | | | |
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