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RE: Todd Bentely - 8/22/2008 1:25:11 PM
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Lapidoth
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I was thinking along those same lines.
And prayerfully hoping that perhaps the repentance
would go deeper than pronounced. I'm praying the
"scales" will fall from all the professed christendom.
Hopefully, it's a step in peeling the onion.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Todd Bentley - 8/22/2008 1:40:44 PM
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sirwintery
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
Dutch Sheets is a false aspotle and belongs to the same Latter Rain/Kingdom Now movement as Todd Bentley. Unless he has repented and renounced this theology, this statement has NO credibility!
Once Bentley fades away, Sheets, Wagner, Joyner and the rest of the ICA will find another phony revival to create.
There you go, Soxfan! No matter how they repackage themselves, it is still the Latter Rain crowd finding another way to patch the holes in the boat and sail on. Sheets' statement is amazing in what it _does_ recognize, but _where_ will he point the flock? Lakeland was SO bad, I don't know if "embarrassed" is the right word, but "damage control" might be a better phrase.
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RE: Todd Bentely - 8/22/2008 1:45:15 PM
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dwtramm
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Let me quote one other thing Dutch Sheets wrote in his open letter.
Whether it is true repentance or not, I guess time will tell, but I do rejoice in what he wrote. It is a step forward, none the less, I feel.
Here is a short quote from the website.
quote:
For this compromise in the way we build, for giving the church watered down wine, commercial Christianity, a flashy but week church and hype disguised as anointing, I repent to God and ask forgiveness of the body of Christ.
I highlighted a portion of the quote.
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RE: Todd Bentely - 8/22/2008 2:10:48 PM
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peacebringer
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and that is what some folks miss it seems.
When being asked for forgiveness are we to give it at only sings of true repentence? Serious question folks. We each need to examine our level of willingness to forgive others. Also at what point is it okay not to forgive, if there is any?
_____________________________
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True peace is not the absence of conflict, it is surrender to the King of Kings.
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RE: Todd Bentely - 8/22/2008 2:13:19 PM
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bluestone
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It would help if Bentley would man up and say "I am so sorry for all I have done. Don't listen to Emma, she don't know what she's talking about "
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RE: Todd Bentely - 8/22/2008 2:28:21 PM
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dwtramm
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
It would help if Bentley would man up and say "I am so sorry for all I have done. Don't listen to Emma, she don't know what she's talking about "
I for one would love to see this as well, plus I do feel it would be biblical for Todd to do this for true repentance.
But here we have a member of that crowd, Dutch Sheets, confess that he repents of those things.
While we shouldn't be gullible, at the same time I feel we should pray concerning what he said, that his repentance is genuine, plus rejoice that there is someone who has seemingly taken a step toward repentance.
I guess I can be a little sympathetic here as I was once part of this crowd. When I saw the light of my sin, there was no one really to support me and for a while I seemed to be on an Island. The WOF crowd I hung out with no longer trusted me, and neither did the others. While I new that I was forgiven by the Lord, I struggled with forgiveness from other believers and especially myself. I was angered and hurt for a long period of time because I couldn't believe how blinded I was for so long.
There seemed to be some unwritten rule of penance that I had to perform before I could be trusted, the only problem was, it was subjective and determined by each person whether they would forgive me or not.
I don't think we should blindly trust Dutch Sheets after his comment, that is not what I'm saying. I'm just hoping that there will be some people who can be there to talk to him and help him as well as just the common person hurt from the lies, sin, and garbage of Lakeland.
How many people are now turned off completely because of all the hype, talk of angels, sin, and manipulation, plus the fact that there was no clear gospel witness.
I told you so's shouldn't be a part of the conversation I feel. We should reach out to those hurting and restore as they turn from that darkness to light of truth.
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RE: Todd Bentely - 8/22/2008 2:51:47 PM
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laura...
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http://www.dutchsheets.org/index.cfm
quote:
The risks are broad: with some of my dearest friends and co-laborers, I risk harming those relationships; with many in the charismatic body of Christ, ...
I sincerely believe that Dutch Sheets is honestly repenting or he would not be taking the huge risk that he is taking. Again, there is certainly more that he could/should repent of and renounce regarding false teaching, but this is a huge step.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Todd Bentely - 8/22/2008 2:53:44 PM
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bluestone
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Even politicians apologize when they have affairs and get caught.
I think it behooves Bentley to come out and make a statement.
_____________________________
I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: Todd Bentely - 8/22/2008 2:56:43 PM
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Soxfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
http://www.dutchsheets.org/index.cfm
quote:
The risks are broad: with some of my dearest friends and co-laborers, I risk harming those relationships; with many in the charismatic body of Christ, ...
I sincerely believe that Dutch Sheets is honestly repenting or he would not be taking the huge risk that he is taking. Again, there is certainly more that he could/should repent of and renounce regarding false teaching, but this is a huge step.
Repenting because he supported Bentley is one thing and I commend him for that. But until he repents and renounces his espousing Latter Rain theology, the words are hollow. I don't hear that in his statement.
His Dominionist doctrine is false and dangerous.
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Todd Bentely - 8/22/2008 3:03:20 PM
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stateofgrace
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I am pleased to see the statement from Dutch Sheets. I hope he will repent of and renounce more of the false teaching, lack of discernment, false prophecies as time goes on.
As far as Bentley and forgiveness...forgiveness for having been deceived and wronged (which he basically did to the entire body of Christ) is one thing. Allowing him back into a position of leadership and influence is quite another.
_____________________________
America Needs Revival. Will you commit to pray for it?
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RE: Todd Bentely - 8/22/2008 3:59:09 PM
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dwtramm
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stateofgrace
I am pleased to see the statement from Dutch Sheets. I hope he will repent of and renounce more of the false teaching, lack of discernment, false prophecies as time goes on.
As far as Bentley and forgiveness...forgiveness for having been deceived and wronged (which he basically did to the entire body of Christ) is one thing. Allowing him back into a position of leadership and influence is quite another.
I personally believe that Todd can repent, and I pray that he does. I also feel it needs to be a public repentance, since he has such a public open ministry.
However, I do think that perhaps he has been disqualified from further leadership in ministry, at least a huge public ministry because of the damage he has done. First Timothy 3:2 says an overseer must be one above reproach. With Todd this will be extremely difficult even if he truly repents and turns to the truth of God's word and rejects the myths of Angels and hyped up religion. The reason is people have memories and do not like to forget error or forgive sin.
As far as Dutch Sheets. I will say one more time. We should rejoice in what he did confess. That is a huge step. I feel it could be perhaps a first step. Let's trust that God can take him further and further down the road of repentance as Dutch submits himself the Christ's Lordship and becomes more obedient to the Word.
On Dutch's website he quoted a passage. I will post it Here.
quote:
Galatians 6:1-5 ESV - 1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. 2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor. 5 For each will have to bear his own load.
Though we may not be able to go to Dutch and do what this passage says. Can we at least pray in a gentle matter that there would be some spiritual believers that would be there to restore him (and Todd for that matter, though I feel Todd's problem goes much deeper than restoration)?
Plus, let's not think to highly of ourselves as well. We've all got to do what this passage says, and test our own work. I'm not saying anyone is thinking to highly of yourself, I'm just repeated what the passage says as an exhortation.
I for one choose to pray for Dutch and Todd. I pray for Dutch's complete repentance and for other believers who are spiritual to be there to restore and help him on this road, and I pray for Todd. I first pray for his salvation, I'm just not sure that he is saved, quite honestly. I pray for his soul, that he would come to know the Christ of the Bible, and not the Christ that Emma or Extreme Prophetic, or his mentors preach of.
And I also pray for those who have been deceived. That there would be spiritual people, full of the Holy Spirit, ready to pick up the pieces and share God's healing Word with them.
I just don't want to see us shoot our walking wounded. Frankly, religious people have a habit of doing this sometimes.
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RE: Todd Bentely - 8/22/2008 4:19:25 PM
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laura...
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quote:
I just don't want to see us shoot our walking wounded. Frankly, religious people have a habit of doing this sometimes.
Interestingly, Dutch Sheets said something about "shooting our wounded":
quote:
"Leaders can live in sin--adultery, homosexuality, financial wrongdoing, drugs, etc.--for years without it being realized. They can offer completely unacceptable lifestyles for the body of Christ to follow and still keep their TV programs and lavish lifestyles. In the name of grace, compassion and forgiveness we have lowered the standard so much that often there isn't one. We have bought into the lie that true discipline is "shooting our wounded." We have made a mockery of biblical restoration, making "ministry"--not healthy individuals, marriages and families--its ultimate goal."
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Todd Bentely - 8/22/2008 4:43:38 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5754
Joined: 4/13/2005
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I'm with Soxfan on the "targeted" repentance.
Sheets does recognize the "lack of" credibility,
but still will be pushing their own version of Gospel.
"We are to be gentle as doves, but wise as the serpent."
Gentle as dove, we accept the confession about leadership
and give forgiveness. But repentance is a 180 turn about
in doctrine more than saying "I'm sorry."
So, we pursue to be gentle as doves; "compassionate,"
but, we pray for the wisdom of the serpent; "discernment."
Being compassionate does not mean we throw out the discernment.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Todd Bentely - 8/22/2008 4:44:54 PM
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earthless
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Wise words from Dutch Sheets. Who would have ever thought I would be typing that up. Someone look to the sky for some flying bacon.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Todd Bentely - 8/22/2008 4:55:06 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5754
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ROFL.......................Pigs flying!!!!!!!!
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Todd Bentley - 8/22/2008 5:27:57 PM
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sirwintery
Posts: 2505
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from the linked article, Dutch Sheets:
quote:
Fathers, when given the voice to do so, bear the responsibility of
giving correction and wisdom.
Dutch thinks he's a spiritual father.
quote:
As far as the heresy hunters and revival police—not those who raised legitimate questions about Lakeland, but the attack dogs who make their
living and build their ministries criticizing everyone else—I lost
respect for them long ago and couldn’t care less what they think.
Was it so long ago than anyone questioning Lakeland was "opposing God" and refusing to "think outside their box"?
quote:
Like other leaders I tried to push past my uneasiness
with the showmanship, the “bams,” the head butts and kneeing,
along with certain experiences and doctrines, all in order to
embrace the good.
"...tried to push past" it??? How do you consider yourself a Christian, much less a "father", and not know that that was wrong, and that to consider God "manifesting" in this violence was wrong?
quote:
Should those who “aligned” Todd with spiritual fathers (which was a good thing and positioned him to receive help if he chooses to accept it)
What "fathers"? Joyner, Che Ahn and Wagner? Perhaps now you begin to see that Sheets is _not_ turning from the Latter Rain crowd. While he may be beginning to recognize the nature of a Christian circus, how can anyone possibly "clean up" the false while still believing it? Let us not forget the extravagant "prophesying" that went on about Todd and Lakeland that is now shown for the complete fantasy that it was.
This is like the whitewash of the Kansas City Prophets. When criticism, Biblical criticism, comes in, they attack the attackers, and when they've put enough derogatory labels on them, then they act like they're in control and say, well, we've turned from whatever errors were there and are now on the right track, and it's just ungodly to not forgive and forget. I do not agree. Turn from the errors, false prophecy, phony apostolic titles, imaginary trips to heaven, frenzied emotionalism called spiritual warfare and the whole Latter Rain trip---THAT would be repentance.
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RE: Todd Bentely - 8/22/2008 5:38:54 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Sheets does recognize the "lack of" credibility,
but still will be pushing their own version of Gospel.
Sheets presents a non-biblical salvation message?
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Todd Bentely - 8/22/2008 6:03:45 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OLEEguacamole
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Sheets does recognize the "lack of" credibility,
but still will be pushing their own version of Gospel.
Sheets presents a non-biblical salvation message?
Sheets presents a Jesus that does not exist. So the message is skewed from the get.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Todd Bentley - 8/22/2008 6:06:42 PM
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stateofgrace
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quote:
As far as the heresy hunters and revival police—not those who raised legitimate questions about Lakeland, but the attack dogs who make their
living and build their ministries criticizing everyone else—I lost respect for them long ago and couldn’t care less what they think.
I am so sick and tired of this cop out regarding supposed "heresy hunters." Most people I'm familiar with who have spoken up about false teachings don't appear to be salivating with joy about bringing these things to light.
_____________________________
America Needs Revival. Will you commit to pray for it?
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RE: Todd Bentley - 8/22/2008 6:55:02 PM
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peacebringer
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Just started a thread on the Ramp. Right now this is one of the places to watch and pray for. These children accept and look up to teachings of Dutch Sheets, Bill Johnson, Todd Bentley, Mike Bickle, and so on... see the thread on the Ramp.
_____________________________
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http://www.peacebringer.net/phpBB3
True peace is not the absence of conflict, it is surrender to the King of Kings.
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RE: Todd Bentley - 8/22/2008 6:56:16 PM
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peacebringer
Posts: 251
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stateofgrace
quote:
As far as the heresy hunters and revival police—not those who raised legitimate questions about Lakeland, but the attack dogs who make their
living and build their ministries criticizing everyone else—I lost respect for them long ago and couldn’t care less what they think.
I am so sick and tired of this cop out regarding supposed "heresy hunters." Most people I'm familiar with who have spoken up about false teachings don't appear to be salivating with joy about bringing these things to light.
Well we are going to be called the spirit of Lawlessness soon...
_____________________________
http://peacebringer7.wordpress.com/
http://www.peacebringer.net/phpBB3
True peace is not the absence of conflict, it is surrender to the King of Kings.
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RE: Todd Bentely - 8/22/2008 8:26:56 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: OLEEguacamole
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Sheets does recognize the "lack of" credibility,
but still will be pushing their own version of Gospel.
Sheets presents a non-biblical salvation message?
Sheets presents a Jesus that does not exist. So the message is skewed from the get.
have not heard this specific claim against sheets, except that it is a common claim against WOF and others. details? link?
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Todd Bentely - 8/22/2008 9:09:35 PM
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ChristopherJ007
Posts: 160
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
Dutch Sheets is a false aspotle and belongs to the same Latter Rain/Kingdom Now movement as Todd Bentley. Unless he has repented and renounced this theology, this statement has NO credibility!
Once Bentley fades away, Sheets, Wagner, Joyner and the rest of the ICA will find another phony revival to create.
As a Bible believing, charismatic believer, one who believes that the gifts of the Holy Spirit - healing, prophecy, miracles, etc. - are for the church today, I disagree strongly with your statement. I read the link to Dutch Sheets website, and was thoroughly impressed and blessed by his courage. I know that their will undoubtedly be those in the charismatic community who will frown upon Dutch Sheets for his bold and honest stand concerning Todd Bentley and the Lakeland situation, but I applaud it.
Having said that, I would also strongly encourage everyone on this site to read through Dutch Sheets' August 21st Statement and Appeal Regarding Lakeland, as I believe it shows a lot of wisdom, humility and maturity. I also want to echo the Scripture he closed with, Galatians 6:1-5...
quote:
Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another. For each one will bear his own load.
_____________________________
Chris Jordan
www.beausejourchurch.ca
http://thelandofpromise.blogspot.com/
(visit our website for free MP3 audio sermons, sermon notes, articles, devotionals and more).
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RE: Todd Bentely - 8/23/2008 12:32:21 AM
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rlj
Posts: 3859
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
It would help if Bentley would man up and say "I am so sorry for all I have done. Don't listen to Emma, she don't know what she's talking about"
That was kind of funny but pathetic at the same time. :/
I believe what he said was sincere and correct. I don't know anything about the man but it's about time some of the bozos in the charismatic movement pull their heads out of the river long enough to see they're in the wrong body of water. : / I'm almost done with the first chapter of Charismatic Chaos and JM is shaming me to the core because in the begginning he's quite right.
Two parts though stand out to me. One is where he says speaking out against Lakeland is one of the biggest risks of his ministry. If speaking the truth is that big of a risk since he is so worried about it he needs to go buy himself a spine. I would rather lose my ministry and tell the Lord one day I spoke the truth then cover it up, lie, and such and face Him as a leader who refused to do so.
The other part that stands out to me is near the end when he says my heart is to help shape a movement. Our hearts need to be on the Mover not the movement. Lakeland happened because the movement was the most important thing. That's my biggest pet peeve about charismatic leaders they want the credit for the movement. None of them want to till the land, plant the crops, water the crops, pull the weeds but man they want to make sure we all know they're in the thick of it at harvest time.
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RE: Todd Bentely - 8/23/2008 10:34:51 AM
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rlj
Posts: 3859
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
Dutch thinks he's a spiritual father.
It's a reference to what Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 4:15 Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. (NIV)
I believe it is saying that himself as a leader (or a father in Christ) it is his responsibility to correct. He didn't do this and he is saying he should have using the "spiritual father" example.
quote:
"...tried to push past" it??? How do you consider yourself a Christian, much less a "father", and not know that that was wrong, and that to consider God "manifesting" in this violence was wrong?
I would like to hear the answer to that from many people myself. : /
_____________________________
Thbbbt!!!!
A video of our cat and kitten:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ycCndVNctA
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