RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters

RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (Full Version)

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blessedinnyc -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/4/2008 1:54:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc The government's job is to maintain order, not make things fair or moral. It's a matter of hyprocisy... The government says murder in the womb is ok, yet outside it's not.. Well acutally one can be charged with murder for killing an unborn child... Ask Scott Peterson... What a mess... The laws are allover the place... That's fine, but abortion does not affect the country's law and order. quote: Actually it's an express command...And killing anyone without just cause is evil and the government is being sinful in not owning up to its expressed duty... Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. This is set in the context of a Roman society that fed Christians to lions or hung them upside-down in the ampitheater simply because they were Christian. When the Christians took over the Roman government under Diocletian, even more atrocities followed. The government should be seen as an agent of God, but is also under the influence of the other entity that influences all systems of worldly power on this planet. quote: Sorry, an unborn child isn't an intruder and it's hypocrisy to say it's ok to kill a child in the womb, but not outside... It's inconsistent, but technically, it's only hypocrisy if you see a liberal advocating for harsher punishments against mothers who kill their 6 month old babies if they've had abortions themselves. The question is whether an individual should be sovereign over their own body- or whether the government can declare eminent domain on their kidney. The problem that children form inside of peoples' bodies is one of the tragedies of modern politics, but the alternative- giving the government the power to control your body- is much worse than 1 million dead babies a year.

lightshineon -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/4/2008 3:13:09 PM)
That is so wrong, sorry. Can you give an reply to the verses I listed? quote: ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc The government's job is to maintain order, not make things fair or moral. It's a matter of hyprocisy... The government says murder in the womb is ok, yet outside it's not.. Well acutally one can be charged with murder for killing an unborn child... Ask Scott Peterson... What a mess... The laws are allover the place... That's fine, but abortion does not affect the country's law and order. quote: Actually it's an express command...And killing anyone without just cause is evil and the government is being sinful in not owning up to its expressed duty... Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. This is set in the context of a Roman society that fed Christians to lions or hung them upside-down in the ampitheater simply because they were Christian. When the Christians took over the Roman government under Diocletian, even more atrocities followed. The government should be seen as an agent of God, but is also under the influence of the other entity that influences all systems of worldly power on this planet. quote: Sorry, an unborn child isn't an intruder and it's hypocrisy to say it's ok to kill a child in the womb, but not outside... It's inconsistent, but technically, it's only hypocrisy if you see a liberal advocating for harsher punishments against mothers who kill their 6 month old babies if they've had abortions themselves. The question is whether an individual should be sovereign over their own body- or whether the government can declare eminent domain on their kidney. The problem that children form inside of peoples' bodies is one of the tragedies of modern politics, but the alternative- giving the government the power to control your body- is much worse than 1 million dead babies a year.

Closie -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/4/2008 3:47:24 PM)
It's 3 days after the post so I pray that she didn't go through with it. But be clear, she didn't do it because of the law. People break the law everyday. Even if abortion were illegal, and she chose to have one anyway, the baby would still be dead. She and the doctor might be in jail, but the baby would still be dead. If she went through with it, it was because Christians in life failed her. Christians did talk about her about the Word. Christians didn't fight the battle for her heart and head. Christians didn't offer the tangible and spiritual support to her prior to making the decision to live a lifestyle that results in unplanned pregnancy. If she went through with it, I pray that the Christians around won't throw her to the wolves. Firmly but gently let her know that while this wrong and the wages of sin is death, that the gift of God is eternal grace. And that upon repetance of this sin, God and her Christian family will throw it away. Only to be resurrected should the Holy Spirit direct her to use that abortion as a witness to the Lord's goodness. But as I said in the beginning, I just pray that it didn't happen. So no I don't vote on just one issue. I will always vote against recognizing gay marriage, but I'd rather put my efforts into making sure that boys and girls have good strong role models at home: a male father and female mother, married to each other prior to the child's conception. Because I understand civics, I understand that the president supporting gay marriage means little or nothing. He will have one vote in his state, just like I have one in my state. I'm more concerned about my Rep or Senator supporting it. Similarly the president's position on abortion will not sway me. I'm influenced by those things that the president can control. Like war. The Fed Reserve. The VP choice (who remember is president of the Senate).

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/4/2008 4:57:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc That's fine, but abortion does not affect the country's law and order. When laws are not consistent they affect law and order... quote: This is set in the context of a Roman society that fed Christians to lions or hung them upside-down in the ampitheater simply because they were Christian. When the Christians took over the Roman government under Diocletian, even more atrocities followed. The government should be seen as an agent of God, but is also under the influence of the other entity that influences all systems of worldly power on this planet. Are you denying what Paul wrote, or attemping to say he was influnced by the current events? Romans 13 is about what God has ordained and what the role of the civil government is... quote: It's inconsistent, but technically, it's only hypocrisy if you see a liberal advocating for harsher punishments against mothers who kill their 6 month old babies if they've had abortions themselves. Liberals say it ok to murder a baby in the womb, but not in the crib... That's Hypocrisy 101 quote: The question is whether an individual should be sovereign over their own body- or whether the government can declare eminent domain on their kidney. We are not talking about a kidney... quote: The problem that children form inside of peoples' bodies is one of the tragedies of modern politics, but the alternative- giving the government the power to control your body- is much worse than 1 million dead babies a year. The only problem is people who kill children in the womb and those who support it... Regardless of whatever the country does God will judge those who do so accordingly and deal with them... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/4/2008 5:11:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Closie It's 3 days after the post so I pray that she didn't go through with it. But be clear, she didn't do it because of the law. People break the law everyday. Even if abortion were illegal, and she chose to have one anyway, the baby would still be dead. She and the doctor might be in jail, but the baby would still be dead. What's wrong with people who commit murder being in jail? If The woman and the doctor killed a baby in crib nobody would take issue with them being in jail... For the record, abortions increaded after 1973.... So yes, the law has influnce... quote: If she went through with it, it was because Christians in life failed her. No, she went through it because she doesn't fear God... As well, if you believe in "Free will" how can you blame others? quote: Christians did talk about her about the Word. From the tone of your post is this a complaint? quote: Christians didn't fight the battle for her heart and head. What does that mean? They didn't tell her God would understand? quote: Christians didn't offer the tangible and spiritual support to her prior to making the decision to live a lifestyle that results in unplanned pregnancy. They didn't choose to have sex, rape her, and or force her to murder the unborn child... quote: If she went through with it, I pray that the Christians around won't throw her to the wolves. Firmly but gently let her know that while this wrong and the wages of sin is death, that the gift of God is eternal grace. Given it's all the Christians fault how can they tell her its wrong? For heavens sake it's her right to do so! quote: So no I don't vote on just one issue. I will always vote against recognizing gay marriage, Why? Making it legal or illegal won't change things, right? Gay people are still going to live together and pretend... quote: but I'd rather put my efforts into making sure that boys and girls have good strong role models at home: a male father and female mother, married to each other prior to the child's conception. Because I understand civics, I understand that the president supporting gay marriage means little or nothing. He will have one vote in his state, just like I have one in my state. My civic class gave the impression the office of the President had a tad bit more influnce on matters... He can veto a law with a stroke of pen, thereby off setting many a vote... He can wage war without consent of the Congress... As well there is simply the influcnce that come with the weight of the office itself... quote: I'm more concerned about my Rep or Senator supporting it. Similarly the president's position on abortion will not sway me. I'm influenced by those things that the president can control. Like war. The Fed Reserve. The VP choice (who remember is president of the Senate). The VP only has one vote, just like the President, right? Heck the best the VP can do is break a tie in the Senate.. John

Closie -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/4/2008 5:45:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe What's wrong with people who commit murder being in jail? If The woman and the doctor killed a baby in crib nobody would take issue with them being in jail... But the baby is still dead, right? Fine put the doctor in jail. Put the mother in jail. If the father paid for it, put him in jail. But the baby would still be dead!!!!

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/4/2008 6:17:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Closie quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe What's wrong with people who commit murder being in jail? If The woman and the doctor killed a baby in crib nobody would take issue with them being in jail... But the baby is still dead, right? Fine put the doctor in jail. Put the mother in jail. If the father paid for it, put him in jail. But the baby would still be dead!!!! Same goes for someone who shot dead the clerk at the 7-11... The clerk is still dead, yet justice was served... Same goes for those involved in the murder of the unborn child... Laws are not simply there to stop,they are there because something are simply wrong... Mother? Mother's don't kill their children, they raise them... Let me repeat myself... More Abortions happened after it was made legal... John

tracydolls -> RE: How does voting for economy reasons vs. ethical reasons mesh (5/4/2008 8:31:08 PM)
quote: Slaves were an asset. They were only good to the owner if they were alive. While their freedom was stolen and they suffered much, their lives were generally valued by the owner. Unwanted children on the other hand are not permitted even one breath. Generally valued? So "you can NOT read the BIBLE was what? Slave owners did murder their slaves all the time. There's too many documented cases of that. did all do it, no. I agree, abortion is terrible. Paying $ to murder an innocent baby. In this day and age, we have birth control, so pregnancy does not have to come about. But it is the law, a terrible law. I say let's get rid of it today. but how? We have voted in Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush 1 & 2 since the inception of Death Roe. those SC Justices are conservative, 7 out of 9, so that ain't working. so people (I'm guessing) probaly go to the next issue which is economics. People are told don't abort. But then live in a culture, that says"they have too many kids", "get a job, you lazy bums," but have no support for daycare. and in order for them to get welfare, "you lazy bums, you can't even have welfare, I'm tired of my tax $ paying for you" the father must be out of home, We cannot have our cake and eat it too.

lightshineon -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/4/2008 10:39:59 PM)
No,Closie prasie God she did not have it, git to the clinic and refused to do it despite the evil families big abortion fit. Pro-Choice means, choosing to keep you drawers on. quote: ORIGINAL: Closie It's 3 days after the post so I pray that she didn't go through with it. But be clear, she didn't do it because of the law. People break the law everyday. Even if abortion were illegal, and she chose to have one anyway, the baby would still be dead. She and the doctor might be in jail, but the baby would still be dead. If she went through with it, it was because Christians in life failed her. Christians did talk about her about the Word. Christians didn't fight the battle for her heart and head. Christians didn't offer the tangible and spiritual support to her prior to making the decision to live a lifestyle that results in unplanned pregnancy. If she went through with it, I pray that the Christians around won't throw her to the wolves. Firmly but gently let her know that while this wrong and the wages of sin is death, that the gift of God is eternal grace. And that upon repetance of this sin, God and her Christian family will throw it away. Only to be resurrected should the Holy Spirit direct her to use that abortion as a witness to the Lord's goodness. But as I said in the beginning, I just pray that it didn't happen. So no I don't vote on just one issue. I will always vote against recognizing gay marriage, but I'd rather put my efforts into making sure that boys and girls have good strong role models at home: a male father and female mother, married to each other prior to the child's conception. Because I understand civics, I understand that the president supporting gay marriage means little or nothing. He will have one vote in his state, just like I have one in my state. I'm more concerned about my Rep or Senator supporting it. Similarly the president's position on abortion will not sway me. I'm influenced by those things that the president can control. Like war. The Fed Reserve. The VP choice (who remember is president of the Senate).

tracydolls -> RE: How does voting for economy reasons vs. ethical reasons mesh (5/4/2008 11:06:26 PM)
quote: Matthew 5, vs 25-34, and Luke 12 22-31. I tell you not to worry about your life. Don't worry about having something to eat, drink or wear......................................... Don't worry and ask yourselves " will we have anything to eat? Will we have anything to drink?" Your Father in Heaven knows you need all of these, but more than anything else seek thekingdom of God first, and all these things will be added to you., for those who do this, are doing as pagans do. Matthew 5:24, and Luke 16:14 YOu can not be the slave of two masters! You will like one more than the other or be more loyal to one than another. You cannot serve both God and money. This verse says do not do as the pagans do? Follow money or worry about what you will eat/drink. Who are pagans: Non-Believers, those that do not have Christ. I would show this verse to show how confusion can come in: Jer 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. Jer 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. Jer 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. To myself,[8\|] anyone that puts up a Xmas tree is doing a pagan/heathen thing. It gets confusing for people. Look an average day on TV: A tornado hit arkansas today and killed 8 The Dow Jones dropped 100 points amisdts fear of a recession Gas prices broke another record today the average price $3.50 Oprah gave another 200 cars to members in her audience. 17 insurgents and 4 American Soldiers were killed today in Basra Another Catholic priest was found guilty of molesting little boys in court today A monster was found to have locked up his daughter in a torture chamber and had 7 children with her The boys from the polymist sect of Latter Day Saints were found to have been molested also. Unemployment is up at 4.6 %, the highest since 2004 Rev. Wright says preaches racist sermons. also says " Barak is lying, he just saying that 'cause he is a politician". TBN is having a tele-a-thon. Jan Crouch needs you to send in a seed, it can be $5.00, $10.00, $100.00. Creflo Dollar made $100 million from the sale of his book" G_d wants to bless you financially. In it, he talks about how the poor are not recieving the blessings of G-D. He is pastor of a Church in Atlanta. He'll be here live tonight at 9PM on "Larry King Live. Christians that have read the Bible, follow it, follow Christ. Should know that we can't chase money, the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. Plead for the poor. Some don't, as evidenced by these boards! I think people then began to vote for whats important to them. Will I get healthcare, enough wages from a job to feed family?

blessedinnyc -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/5/2008 7:47:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lightshineon That is so wrong, sorry. Can you give an reply to the verses I listed? My response is very simple- that since the bible is true, nothing in the Bible can contradict reason. If you are interpreting the bible to mean that the government can enforce morality, then you are interpreting it in a way that contradicts reason, and thus interpreting it incorrectly.

lightshineon -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/5/2008 8:55:54 AM)
Ummm Yeah. quote: ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc quote: ORIGINAL: lightshineon That is so wrong, sorry. Can you give an reply to the verses I listed? My response is very simple- that since the bible is true, nothing in the Bible can contradict reason. If you are interpreting the bible to mean that the government can enforce morality, then you are interpreting it in a way that contradicts reason, and thus interpreting it incorrectly.

tracydolls -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/5/2008 9:52:22 AM)
quote: The problem that children form inside of peoples' bodies is one of the tragedies of modern politics, but the alternative- giving the government the power to control your body- is much worse than 1 million dead babies a year. The babies that G-D put into women is a blessing, not a tradegy of modern politics Huh?..... The gov't does already control us if they can get us to believe that mess. 1million babies being killed a year is nothing to sneeze at. Pro 29:2 When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn. We can have good gov't, we don't right now, we are caught in the middle of voting for people that support abortions, murderers, liars, etc. we are mourning, at least I am. for the 1 million babies a year and....... Christians should not be pro-choice.....

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/5/2008 10:20:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc quote: ORIGINAL: lightshineon That is so wrong, sorry. Can you give an reply to the verses I listed? My response is very simple- that since the bible is true, nothing in the Bible can contradict reason. If you are interpreting the bible to mean that the government can enforce morality, then you are interpreting it in a way that contradicts reason, and thus interpreting it incorrectly. God ordained the civil government to keep order and be to be His minister for those who do evil... When the government says one cannot steal, murder, cheat someone, and so on they are to a degree enforcing morality. John

blessedinnyc -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/5/2008 2:03:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe God ordained the civil government to keep order and be to be His minister for those who do evil... When the government says one cannot steal, murder, cheat someone, and so on they are to a degree enforcing morality. John See, I think this is the beauty of what God set up with human society- in order for society to have order, it has to be moral to a certain extent. But that doesn't mean that the government's job is to enforce morality in every corner of peoples lives. The government's job is to enforce whatever morality it needs to enforce to maintain the order the we need to have civilization.

Jhud -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/5/2008 3:08:27 PM)
quote: But that doesn't mean that the government's job is to enforce morality in every corner of peoples lives. The government's job is to enforce whatever morality it needs to enforce to maintain the order the we need to have civilization. One would hope the morality of not taking an innocent life would be somewhat essential to the maintaining the order of a civil society.

blessedinnyc -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/5/2008 3:17:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud One would hope the morality of not taking an innocent life would be somewhat essential to the maintaining the order of a civil society. Sadly, in the case of abortion, it isn't.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/5/2008 3:22:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc See, I think this is the beauty of what God set up with human society- in order for society to have order, it has to be moral to a certain extent. But that doesn't mean that the government's job is to enforce morality in every corner of peoples lives. The government's job is to enforce whatever morality it needs to enforce to maintain the order the we need to have civilization. Anyone that doesn't think the cold blooded murder of over 40,000,000(and counting) unborn children hasn't had an (adverse) affect on the the United States is kidding themselves... Or the fact that God will hold folks and that includes the government responsible for such sinful behavior. Further... God said the civil government is to deal with those who do evil... Murder is evil. The government is in the wrong to allow abortion, and it compounded by the fact they charge, convict and punish others for murder outside the womb... Judge a righteous judgment. The government is being partial in judgment... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/5/2008 3:25:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud One would hope the morality of not taking an innocent life would be somewhat essential to the maintaining the order of a civil society. Sadly, in the case of abortion, it isn't. The lack of regard for the rule of law and life in general is due in part to the 40,000,000 murdered children... Sin doesn't reside in a vacuum. The lack of morality that allows a group of men to push an agenda of having sex with boys has is fuel by the lack of regard for life and the rule of law... John

Jhud -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/5/2008 3:29:40 PM)
quote: Sadly, in the case of abortion, it isn't. It either is or isn't whatever the case. If it *isn't* essential to the maintaining the order of a civil society in the case of an unborn child, then we must conclude that preventing the death of innocents isn't essential at all, and so, 'not the government's job' in any case. Of course, it is highly unlikely that a society would continue to exist under those circumstances, at least not a civil one.

blessedinnyc -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/5/2008 3:42:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud If it *isn't* essential to the maintaining the order of a civil society in the case of an unborn child, then we must conclude that preventing the death of innocents isn't essential at all, and so, 'not the government's job' in any case. It's not the government's job to prevent the deaths of innocent civilians. Indeed, the government isn't even capable of preventing the deaths of all innocent civilians. The reason that the government makes murder- as the government understands it- illegal is that society couldn't function if it were- not because murder is immoral. Paul's comment about the government bearing the sword to those who do evil was written at a time when various prisoners of war and Christians were fed to lions for the enjoyment of Roman citizens. Clearly, Romans 13 isn't meant to imply that the government is charged with enforcing morality- it implies that Christians are to obey the government because one of the beneficial side-effects of government is that immorality tends to be punished.

tracydolls -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/5/2008 4:59:55 PM)
quote: It's not the government's job to prevent the deaths of innocent civilians. Indeed, the government isn't even capable of preventing the deaths of all innocent civilians. this is a law that is intentionally murdering innocents, it's an immoral law. It needs to be changed. Today. I Tracy would close the clinics down today by military rule if I could.

Jhud -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/5/2008 5:06:01 PM)
quote: It's not the government's job to prevent the deaths of innocent civilians. Indeed, the government isn't even capable of preventing the deaths of all innocent civilians. It's certainly the governments job to have laws in place so that those who intentionally kill innocent civilians can be prosecuted, the eventuality of which is prevention. quote: The reason that the government makes murder- as the government understands it- illegal is that society couldn't function if it were- not because murder is immoral. You are contradicting yourself here; if murder is the intentional killing of innocent human beings, and it inevitably results in the disruption of society, then how could we excuse this very action in the case of abortion? quote: Paul's comment about the government bearing the sword to those who do evil was written at a time when various prisoners of war and Christians were fed to lions for the enjoyment of Roman citizens. Clearly, Romans 13 isn't meant to imply that the government is charged with enforcing morality- it implies that Christians are to obey the government because one of the beneficial side-effects of government is that immorality tends to be punished. Romans 13:3 - 13:4 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority ? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. Paul here is talking about God's purpose for legitimate governmental authority; obviously, being run by men, governments can do what is evil. Paul, as well of the other apostles, had at times disobeyed direct orders from governing authorities. But that determination is made by weighing one authority (God's) against another (government's) and as Christians we are obligated to obey the latter as long as it doesn't contradict the former.

lightshineon -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/5/2008 5:46:36 PM)
I was reading Tracy, the niece of MLK Jr. is fighting abortion and planned parenthood. I wish we could close down the butcher shops. quote: ORIGINAL: tracydolls quote: It's not the government's job to prevent the deaths of innocent civilians. Indeed, the government isn't even capable of preventing the deaths of all innocent civilians. this is a law that is intentionally murdering innocents, it's an immoral law. It needs to be changed. Today. I Tracy would close the clinics down today by military rule if I could.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/5/2008 7:10:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc It's not the government's job to prevent the deaths of innocent civilians. Indeed, the government isn't even capable of preventing the deaths of all innocent civilians. Romans 13 says you're 100% wrong... For the sake of order and because the civil government is supposed to be the minister of God to those who evil it is more assuredly one of its jobs... quote: The reason that the government makes murder- as the government understands it- illegal is that society couldn't function if it were- not because murder is immoral. I thought laws don't stop things from happening? Are you willing to say that simply having the law in place deters a percentage of the crime itself? quote: Paul's comment about the government bearing the sword to those who do evil was written at a time when various prisoners of war and Christians were fed to lions for the enjoyment of Roman citizens. Paul was moved by the Holy Spirit not what was going on with the civil government of his time... quote: Clearly, Romans 13 isn't meant to imply that the government is charged with enforcing morality- it implies that Christians are to obey the government because one of the beneficial side-effects of government is that immorality tends to be punished. Romans 13... 1. Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4. For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Nothing in the above supports your view... God is saying that the civil government is HIS minster.. A revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. It's all about morality.... Unless of course you are willing to say God isn't about morality... John

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