How does voting for economy reasons vs. ethical reasons mesh (Full Version)

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lightshineon -> How does voting for economy reasons vs. ethical reasons mesh (5/1/2008 2:12:39 PM)

I was thinking about this, because at this moment, a young girl is on her way to have an abortion, in my SIL family. This scripture came to my mind Matthew 5, vs 25-34, and Luke 12 22-31. I tell you not to worry about your life. Don't worry about having something to eat, drink or wear......................................... Don't worry and ask yourselves " will we have anything to eat? Will we have anything to drink?" Your Father in Heaven knows you need all of these, but more than anything else seek the kingdom of God first, and all these things will be added to you., for those who do this, are doing as pagans do.
Matthew 5:24, and Luke 16:14 YOu can not be the slave of two masters! You will like one more than the other or be more loyal to one than another. You cannot serve both God and money.

This is not a judgment thread, but just a question for believers who I have heard the economy is more important than abortion, gay marriage issues. I am trying to see both points of view, in fairness. So no one take offense, just a question I need to find out. Thank you for your kind replies.



blessedinnyc -> RE: How does voting for economy reasons vs. ethical reasons mesh (5/1/2008 2:25:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

I was thinking about this, because at this moment, a young girl is on her way to have an abortion, in my SIL family. This scripture came to my mind Matthew 5, vs 25-34, and Luke 12 22-31. I tell you not to worry about your life. Don't worry about having something to eat, drink or wear......................................... Don't worry and ask yourselves " will we have anything to eat? Will we have anything to drink?" Your Father in Heaven knows you need all of these, but more than anything else seek the kingdom of God first, and all these things will be added to you., for those who do this, are doing as pagans do.
Matthew 5:24, and Luke 16:14 YOu can not be the slave of two masters! You will like one more than the other or be more loyal to one than another. You cannot serve both God and money.

This is not a judgment thread, but just a question for believers who I have heard the economy is more important than abortion, gay marriage issues. I am trying to see both points of view, in fairness. So no one take offense, just a question I need to find out. Thank you for your kind replies.


I think that we are to render unto Caesar what it's Caesar's, and as voters we have a fiduciary duty to act in the interests of the country 30 years in the future.

JMHO.



Jhud -> RE: How does voting for economy reasons vs. ethical reasons mesh (5/1/2008 2:33:32 PM)

quote:

I think that we are to render unto Caesar what it's Caesar's, and as voters we have a fiduciary duty to act in the interests of the country 30 years in the future.


I agree, which is why I don't want to irrevocably abort the futures of a million children a year.



blessedinnyc -> RE: How does voting for economy reasons vs. ethical reasons mesh (5/1/2008 2:42:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud
I agree, which is why I don't want to irrevocably abort the futures of a million children a year.

I understand that perspective, but I am also concerned about aborting the futures of six billion human beings in the nuclear-armed, potentially Chinese-dominated world we will live in in 50 years.

I didn't want to make a political statement with my first comment, but alas, everything that winds up in the election folder always has political subtleties to it.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: How does voting for economy reasons vs. ethical reasons mesh (5/1/2008 2:44:13 PM)

Anyone that believes they can vote for people and or policies that support clearly ungodly actions and or ideals for any reason without consequences is kidding themselves...

John



blessedinnyc -> RE: How does voting for economy reasons vs. ethical reasons mesh (5/1/2008 2:45:13 PM)

quote:

Anyone that believes they can vote for people and or policies that support clearly ungodly actions and or ideals for any reason without consequences is kidding themselves...

John

So in other words, people shouldn't vote for sinners.

This means we should all stay home in November.



WesP -> RE: How does voting for economy reasons vs. ethical reasons mesh (5/1/2008 2:48:56 PM)

For me, the two decisions are not mutually exclusive. I vote for the candidate that is the closest match to my beliefs, and those beliefs include fiscal policy as well as other obviously ethical considerations. That being said, I do not see how I can rank money above life, so I would be hard pressed to support someone who thinks abortion is acceptable.



WesP -> RE: How does voting for economy reasons vs. ethical reasons mesh (5/1/2008 2:50:21 PM)

quote:

alas, everything that winds up in the election folder always has political subtleties to it.


LOL!!! Ya think? [8D]



Jhud -> RE: How does voting for economy reasons vs. ethical reasons mesh (5/1/2008 2:57:52 PM)

quote:

I understand that perspective, but I am also concerned about aborting the futures of six billion human beings in the nuclear-armed, potentially Chinese-dominated world we will live in in 50 years.

I didn't want to make a political statement with my first comment, but alas, everything that winds up in the election folder always has political subtleties to it.


Which of the candidates today is going to prevent a nuclear armed Chinese dominated world in the future; particularly as China already has nukes?



cow451 -> RE: How does voting for economy reasons vs. ethical reasons mesh (5/1/2008 3:03:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

I understand that perspective, but I am also concerned about aborting the futures of six billion human beings in the nuclear-armed, potentially Chinese-dominated world we will live in in 50 years.

I didn't want to make a political statement with my first comment, but alas, everything that winds up in the election folder always has political subtleties to it.


Which of the candidates today is going to prevent a nuclear armed Chinese dominated world in the future; particularly as China already has nukes?


The candidate that can rally the dogs. If dogs can be armed and organized they can fight for freedom in China by overthrowing the existing evil government. PETA and the CIA would have a common foe.



Evangel70 -> Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/1/2008 3:04:56 PM)

quote:

This is not a judgment thread, but just a question for believers who I have heard the economy is more important than abortion, gay marriage issues. I am trying to see both points of view, in fairness. So no one take offense, just a question I need to find out. Thank you for your kind replies.


Your question is a great one as single-issue voters (those voting SOLELY on where a candidate stands on abortion or gay marriage) don't often understand where "big picture" voters are coming from.

Our American constitutional systems is structured on a system of checks and balances. This means that no single branch of government -- Executive, Judicial or Legislative -- has the ability to create constitutional change without the consent of the other branches. As such, no presidential candidate -- despite what he/she may otherwise promise on the campaign trail -- has the power to overturn something like Roe v. Wade or legislate that individuals regard marriage as sacred.

As contentious as our congressional system has been, I'm sure you see the difficulty in believing that any ONE candidate is going to create sweeping changes. President Bush had the ideal system of a Republican majority in congress for 6 years and yet did nothing to overturn the political right's hot-button issues. He spent 6 years pretending democrats didn't exist and if they did they were just aligning themselves with terrorists and were unpatriotic. This philosophy only lead to a democratic sweep in 2006 and a "lame duck" presidency with a deadlocked congress.

For those of us who look at the "big picture" we vote for whomever we believe has the best and most-likely-to-get-through-congress policies. While our definition of who might be the "best" may differ, we believe that individual "morality" issues are best legislated through the institute of the church and through evangelism than through politics.

As in your example with the young lady in your SIL's family, no one is taking this young lady against her will, kicking and screaming, to an abortion clinic. Perhaps if she had Christians around her to counsel her about the tragedy of abortion and offer whatever support she needed -- be it financial or emotional to keep her baby or put it up for adoption, she may be making a different decision now. There is no guarantee that if abortion were made illegal, this young girl would then keep her baby. She may simply end killing herself and her baby trying to abort the baby herself or getting some back-alley hack job. Only the message of the gospel and the power of the holy spirit can change a heart. No presidential candidate EVER will.



blessedinnyc -> RE: How does voting for economy reasons vs. ethical reasons mesh (5/1/2008 3:06:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

Which of the candidates today is going to prevent a nuclear armed Chinese dominated world in the future; particularly as China already has nukes?

The one that can make sure we stay a superpower and help reduce tensions between nuclear-armed India, China, and Pakistan. Staying a superpower means keeping the deficit down first and foremost, and beyond that, also cutting spending.



Jhud -> RE: How does voting for economy reasons vs. ethical reasons mesh (5/1/2008 3:23:38 PM)

quote:

The one that can make sure we stay a superpower and help reduce tensions between nuclear-armed India, China, and Pakistan. Staying a superpower means keeping the deficit down first and foremost, and beyond that, also cutting spending.


Which one is that again?



Jhud -> RE: How does voting for economy reasons vs. ethical reasons mesh (5/1/2008 3:27:55 PM)

quote:

The candidate that can rally the dogs. If dogs can be armed and organized they can fight for freedom in China by overthrowing the existing evil government. PETA and the CIA would have a common foe.


Rin Tin Tiananmen.



CatholicCritter -> RE: How does voting for economy reasons vs. ethical reasons mesh (5/1/2008 3:49:19 PM)

Issues are arranged geometrically, not quantitatively. In other words, you don't add up the number of beliefs of candidates that agree with yours and the ones that don't and go with the candidate with the most check marks.

Christian tradition dictates that fundamental, foundational issues take precedence over all others. Look, if a candidate said that he supported Osama Bin Laden's right to perpetrate acts of terror like 9/11 in every US city, would you even ask what his position on education or the economy was? Certain positions automatically disqualify a candidate. If you defy fundamental moral principles, you don't get to tell me what you think about the economy and/or pork barrel spending--you're done. The direct and intentional killing of innocent human life, and support for it, is always wrong and must always be opposed in Christian tradition and history.

See, if a candidate can propose education or health care for all and then deny those things to certain segments of 'all', then it renders his/her position on everything else suspect. Example--obama voted to deny health care to babies who survive the abortion process. This is a LIVE baby outside of the womb who is dying and Obama would refuse them health care and resign them to a dark closet to perish alone and in pain. He has gone on record as regretting his vote to allow Terri Schiavo extra time to live because he deemed she was not worthy of life that God gave her. Couple these with the fact that he believes that abortion is a right and he is ipso facto out of the running for my vote.

To place 'nuclear proliferation' (potential but definitely not likely death) on par with fundamental life issues (ACTUAL past, present, and future direct killing of Americans) is folly. Stay close to Church teaching and who you can and cannot vote for becomes crystal clear.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: How does voting for economy reasons vs. ethical reasons mesh (5/1/2008 3:54:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

quote:

Anyone that believes they can vote for people and or policies that support clearly ungodly actions and or ideals for any reason without consequences is kidding themselves...

John

So in other words, people shouldn't vote for sinners.

This means we should all stay home in November.


To a degree that's unavoidable... So no, that's not my point... And to use that fact to support clearly ungodly actions and or ideals would bring about consequences as well...

John



Jhud -> RE: How does voting for economy reasons vs. ethical reasons mesh (5/1/2008 3:56:06 PM)

quote:

Christian tradition dictates that fundamental, foundational issues take precedence over all others. Look, if a candidate said that he supported Osama Bin Laden's right to perpetrate acts of terror like 9/11 in every US city, would you even ask what his position on education or the economy was? Certain positions automatically disqualify a candidate. If you defy fundamental moral principles, you don't get to tell me what you think about the economy and/or pork barrel spending--you're done. The direct and intentional killing of innocent human life, and support for it, is always wrong and must always be opposed in Christian tradition and history.


Excellent point.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/1/2008 4:08:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Evangel70
For those of us who look at the "big picture" we vote for whomever we believe has the best and most-likely-to-get-through-congress policies. While our definition of who might be the "best" may differ, we believe that individual "morality" issues are best legislated through the institute of the church and through evangelism than through politics.


When did murder become a individual "morality" issue? What hypocrisy it is to have people serving prison time for murder and even having their life(rightly so) taken for their crime, while a million people get away with it...

quote:


As in your example with the young lady in your SIL's family, no one is taking this young lady against her will, kicking and screaming, to an abortion clinic. Perhaps if she had Christians around her to counsel her about the tragedy of abortion and offer whatever support she needed -- be it financial or emotional to keep her baby or put it up for adoption, she may be making a different decision now. There is no guarantee that if abortion were made illegal, this young girl would then keep her baby. She may simply end killing herself and her baby trying to abort the baby herself or getting some back-alley hack job. Only the message of the gospel and the power of the holy spirit can change a heart. No presidential candidate EVER will.


No law guarantees the crime will not take place and that's not the basis for having them... It's safe to say if robbing banks didn't have consequences people would be making withdrawals daily... Same goes for murder...

As for the woman killing herself in the attempt to murder the child? Do people generally lament over people who die when attempting to murder another person?

John



tracydolls -> RE: How does voting for economy reasons vs. ethical reasons mesh (5/1/2008 4:15:33 PM)

quote:

By a wide margin -- 56% to 30% -- more Americans say the economy and health-care issues trump terrorism and social issues when it comes to casting their vote for president, according to the latest Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll.



I think with the economy being the number one issue in every poll. People are gonna vote for economic issues. A WHOLE lot of people it seems.

believers, nonbelievers, consevatives, liberals, etc.



Evangel70 -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/1/2008 4:46:10 PM)

quote:

When did murder become a individual "morality" issue? What hypocrisy it is to have people serving prison time for murder and even having their life(rightly so) taken for their crime, while a million people get away with it...


If you truly believe that, why are you not petitioning legislators to put girls and women who have abortions in jail as "murderers". Would you support a "death penalty" for teenagers having abortions?

Don't you realize that parents and churches have a greater influence on whether or not a young girl has an abortion than legislators do? Don't you believe parents have as much culpability for abandoning their parental responsibilities and expecting the government to regulate the behavior and morality of their children?

There are dozens of other "abortion" threads so I'll end here.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/1/2008 5:49:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Evangel70

If you truly believe that, why are you not petitioning legislators to put girls and women who have abortions in jail as "murderers".


First I have to get those who claim Christ to believe that nobody has the right, nor a good reason to murder a child... What hope do I have in the secular world if half the body of Christ supports the murder of children?

quote:


Would you support a "death penalty" for teenagers having abortions?


If the circumstancs dictated it, yes...

quote:

Don't you realize that parents and churches have a greater influence on whether or not a young girl has an abortion than legislators do?


Not the point... This country allows some to murder and others are put in jail for it... That alone is wrong...


quote:

Don't you believe parents have as much culpability for abandoning their parental responsibilities and expecting the government to regulate the behavior and morality of their children?


I am not operating under some assumption that children are the only ones getting abortions...

John



lightshineon -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/1/2008 5:58:34 PM)

In my view these verse as Gods promises, to take care of those that seek his kingdom first, so that would put to rest voting morals vs. economic issues. Thanks everyone for kind replies



blessedinnyc -> RE: How does voting for economy reasons vs. ethical reasons mesh (5/1/2008 7:19:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

The one that can make sure we stay a superpower and help reduce tensions between nuclear-armed India, China, and Pakistan. Staying a superpower means keeping the deficit down first and foremost, and beyond that, also cutting spending.


Which one is that again?

Either of the two that have a strategy- albeit a very unpopular one- for reducing the deficit.

quote:

Christian tradition dictates that fundamental, foundational issues take precedence over all others. Look, if a candidate said that he supported Osama Bin Laden's right to perpetrate acts of terror like 9/11 in every US city, would you even ask what his position on education or the economy was? Certain positions automatically disqualify a candidate. If you defy fundamental moral principles, you don't get to tell me what you think about the economy and/or pork barrel spending--you're done. The direct and intentional killing of innocent human life, and support for it, is always wrong and must always be opposed in Christian tradition and history.

Actually, Christian tradition normally dictates that smart Christians avoid letting Christianity influence politics too much. The last time we had a true, lasting Christian takeover of the government on a wide scale, we found ourselves entering the Middle Ages.

Most Protestants tried to keep Christianity out of politics after Martin Luther- content to let Christian values subtly influence votes on their own. Head up to parts of Wisconsin or Michigan and you'll find a lot of Dutch Calvinists who still follow this tradition- despite being very quiet ultra-Conservatives.



lightshineon -> RE: How does voting for economy reasons vs. ethical reasons mesh (5/1/2008 7:25:37 PM)

My question though is how does this mesh, with Gods word, which is truth. It say's pagans worry about such things, and we as believers should not. We do not have to take over whole goverment, or world, but have freedom to obey Gods word in practice and deed as believers. And God is always right, always.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Single Issue vs Big Picture Voters (5/1/2008 7:26:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
First I have to get those who claim Christ to believe that nobody has the right, nor a good reason to murder a child... What hope do I have in the secular world if half the body of Christ supports the murder of children?

I don't think many Christians believe that anyone has the right to murder a child. The question is whether the US should have the authority to regulate what goes on inside a person's body. Would you want them to force you to donate a kidney? How 'bout have a chip implanted in your right hand or forehead?

quote:

If the circumstancs dictated it, yes... [I would support the death penalty for abortions]

What if they did it because their life was threatened by the pregnancy? Will self-defense be allowed as a defense at trial?

quote:

Not the point... This country allows some to murder and others are put in jail for it... That alone is wrong...

We punish thefts here at home but don't punish them on cruise ships- because the government does not have the authority to punish crimes committed on the high seas.



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