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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 5:23:19 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 542
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
We all sin, and we all sin all the time. You may speak for yourself, URF, but you have no sane interpretation of 1 John 3:4-10 if you believe Christians "sin all the time"! I agree with Brother James - I'll pray for you as well as Dennis.
And I for you. 
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 5:28:38 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3164
Joined: 7/10/2006
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The prayers of constant sinners are pretty much worthless - John 9:31. 
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 5:39:21 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 542
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
The prayers of constant sinners are pretty much worthless - John 9:31.
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." Galatians 5:21-2
Are you ever unloving? Are you ever not joyful? Are you ever not peaceful? Are you ever not patient? Are you ever unkind? Are you ever not good? Are you ever not faithful? Are you ever not gentle? Are you ever not in in control of yourself?
How ya doin' holy one? Or are you still asleep? lol.
Peace
< Message edited by URForgiven -- 5/10/2008 7:41:54 PM >
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 8:08:56 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3164
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Well URF, I appreciate that you have conceded the point that Christians do not sin all the time. Now, would you like to discuss how often we sin (as in "are you ever...") or focus on what God does in, through, and with us to be holy. That is the subject of the OP!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 9:58:02 PM
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Shrommer
Posts: 117
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Romans says that God's kindness (KJV goodness, etc.) leads us to repentance. As far as being brought "back" to repentance ...
Have you ever seen the bridge illustration? The top picture is of someone on the left side of an abyss, headed AWAY from the abyss. On the other side (right side) of the abyss is God and all the goodness He is and has for us.
The middle picture shows someone on the left side trying to get across, but it is like jumping off a cliff and there is a huge barrier in the middle called SIN.
The bottom picture shows how the cross came to remove the sin barrier, and it becomes the bridge across the abyss. The person is now on the right side, with God, enjoying his blessings, and has found a way to cross over through Christ Jesus our Lord.
So what's the point? Well the person on the left side is doing something stupid. They say they want the things God has to offer, but they are looking for them in places where God isn't, not even trying to please God or do what he commands. This person is at a place where they need to REPENT - turn around the other direction and go after what God wants for their life.
The second picture has a person who has repented, but has not trusted in Christ for salvation. They are trying in their own way to please God - good works, good doctrine perhaps, - but the barrier of sin always keeps them separated from God, and there is no way that any goodness in themselves can ever remove the sinful heart or the sin record. This person needs to BELIEVE.
The third person has TURNED and TRUSTED (aka repented and believed). They are trusting Christ to take away the sin and forgive them and take them to God's presence - be it heaven for eternity or His friendship on earth.
So how can someone be brought back to repentance who has never believed to begin with? It is like someone on the left side of the abyss, who at times is facing God trying to get across, then turns away and goes his or her own way, then comes back to the edge again and tries good works again, etc.
The Bible teaches us that we must repent and believe. Too many times people repent and trust in themselves or trust in their repented attitude and behavior, or else they try to trust in Christ without really crucifying the self. Neither of these ways works. Jesus is the way, and he says we need to repent and believe = turn and trust.
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 10:00:29 PM
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Shrommer
Posts: 117
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On the main topic, I have two things to say.
First, I think we waste a lot of time reading and writing on-line, when we could be reading good books on this topic. I suggest the writings of John Wesley.
Second, any study on holiness in the believer should have as main element the study of the person and work of the Holy Spirit. It's not that "Holy" is even His middle name; it's His FIRST name.
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 10:52:15 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 542
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Well URF, I appreciate that you have conceded the point that Christians do not sin all the time. Now, would you like to discuss how often we sin (as in "are you ever...") or focus on what God does in, through, and with us to be holy. That is the subject of the OP!
Add 'em all up and your left with a massive amount of face time on the floor.
Watch out for rug burns...
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 10:55:49 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3164
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Sorry, I'm too busy living a holy life in, through, and with the Lord to spend "massive" time in prayer over sins He empowers me to not commit.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 10:59:17 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 542
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Sorry, I'm too busy living a holy life in, through, and with the Lord to spend "massive" time in prayer over sins He empowers me to not commit.
Wait a minute, isn't that an oxymoron? 
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 11:02:14 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3164
Joined: 7/10/2006
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Please show me where holy living involves praying over sins we haven't committed!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 11:05:03 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 542
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Please show me where holy living involves praying over sins we haven't committed!
I hope you were being funny cause it made me laugh. If not, then I was laughing with you and not at you. 
Night all....
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 11:10:36 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3164
Joined: 7/10/2006
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Hey, I'm all for growing in the Lord. If you can find Biblical support for praying over sins never committed, I'm willing to consider it. Otherwise, God has way better things for me to do with the limited time He's blessed me.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 11:54:59 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 552
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmc4Jesus
There have been some excellent verses given to establish that our holiness is a gift from God. At the same time, we also see Scriptures above that establish that we have a responsibility to walk in that holiness by how we live our lives.
gm,
Responsibility is a word many Christians choose to ignore. They label that word under the title of "Works." And "how we live our lives" is irrelevant to many Christians because they look at their "walk" with Jesus as vicarious, not something done purposefully, with the intention to imitate Jesus Christ. IOW, "doing" just about anything as far as their walk with Christ is not in their vocabulary. How one vicariously loves has got me scratching my head though.
quote:
Holiness, sanctification is not we can earn or diserve, but as you can not be a police officer if you won't wear the uniform and uphold the law, you will not remain in God's grace if you do not reject sin in your life and at least make a sincer attempt to uphold the life worthy of the name Christian.
Those kind of words will not sit well with many Christians, gm. But then I expect you already know that, right?
quote:
God sees us believers as holy, saints unless or until we totally reject Him, His salvation through Jesus and return to the life of sin that entrapped us before we ever became believers.
gm, Are you looking to be unpopular on this forum? If you haven't discovered this already, you will eventually realize that a large majority of Christians do not think we can reject Jesus and return to a life of sin. You know, OSAS.
Heavendweller
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/10/2008 11:59:55 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 552
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GraceBro
Being holy means to be who you are! I don't "live a holy life" I am holy already because of my faith in Christ and now I allow Christ to live His life through me.
I suppose the same thing goes for love. I don't have to love my neighbor, or my husband or my children, or my enemies, because it just comes naturally now that I'm a Christian. I'll call it vicarious love. Or better yet, love by osmosis. 
Heavendweller
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/11/2008 12:11:03 AM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 552
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GraceBro
Being holy means to be who you are! I don't "live a holy life" I am holy already because of my faith in Christ and now I allow Christ to live His life through me.
God desired to have a relationship with us. Therefore, He gave us everything we need, through Jesus Christ, so we would not seek, that which we already have in Him, by engaging in sin. A Christian is holy and sanctified because of their faith in Christ.
So how does a Christian grow spiritually if they already have it "all." If nothing needs to be done because all that the Christian needs they instantaneously receive upon salvation, then what does God expect of the Christian, if anything at all? What I hear is it's all been done for me and I don't have to do a doggone thing. Not one thing. I can just "rest" in the Lord. Where does fighting the good fight of the faith come in? Oh yeah, Christ already did that for me so I don't have to do that either.
Easy Christianity. Gee, I wonder why Christ said "The gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
Heavendweller
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/11/2008 1:34:51 AM
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Heavendweller
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
There is also nothing here about this poor suckers relationship with God being hindered. It was his relationship with the body of Christ that was hindered.
Sins affect us and our relationship with others, not our relationship with God. God has already dealt with the sin issue between Himself and man. For God "It is finished".
Sin effects our relationship with God and with others. When we deliberately sin, we are ignoring God and showing by our actions that we don't care what He thinks. We are demonstrating that we would rather please ourselves than Him. This apathetic attitude most certainly grieves our Heavenly Father, just as it grieves earthly parents when their children deliberately disobey them.
Heavendweller
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/11/2008 1:51:54 AM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 552
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven:
"We all sin, and we all sin all the time."
I don't know what guys you are referring to, or where you got these presumptions, or even what the questions mean. But I do know that being led by the indwelling Spirit of God is about as life changing an experience that one could have.
It is just incredible what He will do...if we just get the heck out of the way. 
So which is it? We all sin all the time (meaning of course that sin permeates our very being, and infiltrates all that we do.) OR "being led by the indwelling Spirit of God" so that one is partaking of the divine nature of Christ and being changed into His likeness.
How can I be sinning all of the time and at the same time being changed into the likeness of Christ?
Heavendweller
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/11/2008 7:44:12 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 789
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Heaven Dweller, everything you have brought up is at the heart of this passionate debate. GMC doesn't appear to have been looking for popularity by creating this thread. I fshe had of been , she probably would have posted the easy believing them that is redundant throughout this topic. The topic itself is what is not popular, it describes the narrow way. So many don't want to hear that it requires effort, it requires us to take action, love is action not just emotion. It is easier for people to believe that they can follow a Jesus with no further action needed. The Bible speaks differently than this mentality. It commands action. It commands accountability and responsibility. It commands us to live holy and encourage others to do so as well. People want to focus on "now therefore is no condemnation...". This is not saying live how you want because you believe in Jesus. Or that we won't suffer consequences when we do sin. People want to forget than we will stand before the judgment seat and answer for everything, both good and bad. No this certainly is not a popular message and people revolt upon hearing it because it means they have to do and live differently and that requires more effort.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/11/2008 10:56:41 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 1989
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmc4Jesus
Thirty five years ago, I aspired to write the perfect sermon. One in which everyone who heard it would choose to come to Jesus. I soon realized that my goal, while noble, was humanly impossible. Jesus preached and performed many signs and wonders to persuade His audience that He was the Christ, the Messiah. Even then, there were those who chose to reject Him.
2000 years ago God walked among us !
In Jesus' Presence for 3 years, the 12
apostles lived intimately with God day
in, and day out. These men still sinned !!!
Explain why these men continued sinning ?
Don't say because Pentecost hadn't happened-
_____________________________
"WHOSOEVER"are the elect-
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/11/2008 11:29:06 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 789
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That's easy...
Because of our sinful nature, hence our need for confession and repentance to continue running the race of faith.....
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/11/2008 12:17:12 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 4582
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
2000 years ago God walked among us !
In Jesus' Presence for 3 years, the 12
apostles lived intimately with God day
in, and day out. These men still sinned !!!
Explain why these men continued sinning ?
Please show us in Scripture where these men sinned after the Holy Spirit came (Acts 2).
And the naysayers on the thread have spoken repeatedly of daily and continually sinning; please show me Scripture for that; even before Acts 2.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/11/2008 12:32:43 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 737
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
2000 years ago God walked among us !
In Jesus' Presence for 3 years, the 12
apostles lived intimately with God day
in, and day out. These men still sinned !!!
Explain why these men continued sinning ?
Please show us in Scripture where these men sinned after the Holy Spirit came (Acts 2).
And the naysayers on the thread have spoken repeatedly of daily and continually sinning; please show me Scripture for that; even before Acts 2.
Thanks
RC
If you will accept nothing but the direct phrase, "These men sinned after the Holy Spirit came," I don't think I'll be able to help you, however there are many verses which indicate that people still sin from time to time once saved.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/11/2008 12:53:13 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 4582
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
If you will accept nothing but the direct phrase, "These men sinned after the Holy Spirit came," I don't think I'll be able to help you, however there are many verses which indicate that people still sin from time to time once saved.
Please give me some that indicat the apostles walked in sin or even sinned after acts 2.
That is what Mannamuncher is claiming and I would like some Scripture to back it up.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/11/2008 1:37:35 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 542
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven:
"We all sin, and we all sin all the time."
I don't know what guys you are referring to, or where you got these presumptions, or even what the questions mean. But I do know that being led by the indwelling Spirit of God is about as life changing an experience that one could have.
It is just incredible what He will do...if we just get the heck out of the way.
So which is it? We all sin all the time (meaning of course that sin permeates our very being, and infiltrates all that we do.) OR "being led by the indwelling Spirit of God" so that one is partaking of the divine nature of Christ and being changed into His likeness.
How can I be sinning all of the time and at the same time being changed into the likeness of Christ?
Heavendweller
When "we" are doing it, it is sin.
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: Be Holy? - 5/11/2008 1:50:08 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 737
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
If you will accept nothing but the direct phrase, "These men sinned after the Holy Spirit came," I don't think I'll be able to help you, however there are many verses which indicate that people still sin from time to time once saved.
Please give me some that indicat the apostles walked in sin or even sinned after acts 2.
That is what Mannamuncher is claiming and I would like some Scripture to back it up.
Thanks
RC
You're asking for the apostles specifically? How about men in general? The apostles were mere men, and therefore what applies to men applies to them.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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