RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? (Full Version)

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BugLady -> RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? (5/8/2008 11:51:24 PM)

quote:

I do a lot of things that are done poorly because I am a man and I am kind of proud of it.


Ah, but do you do them poorly because you are a man or is it simply because you don't possess the skill?

quote:

The question was just a response to a comment. Why should it be bad for a girl to do something "like a girl", even if it is seen as being done poorly?


I guess because, in my thinking anyway, we should strive to do our best at everything we do. If we do our best, it shouldn't then be considered as being done poorly. But that's just my opinion.



TomTurn -> RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? (5/8/2008 11:54:10 PM)

At least two people have made the comment about lace and fru, fru which we all know is not what femininity is all about. But it does kind of sound defensive. And not saying anyone was. Just using the word defensive as a seg way to mention;

Could it be that "femininity" is seen as "weaker" in a lot of ways by the world and especially in the U.S. where "weaker" is seen as bad fairly much at all times?

Now please keep in mind when you read anything I am writing, you could always find something to focus on and make it what it is not. Words will come out sounding wrong and this is just friendly conversation. I think women are the greatest



TomTurn -> RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? (5/8/2008 11:57:44 PM)

quote:

Ah, but do you do them poorly because you are a man or is it simply because you don't possess the skill?


My brain will just not allow me to do some things. I do it like a guy and it is done poorly as viewed by many and always will be done that way.

quote:

I guess because, in my thinking anyway, we should strive to do our best at everything we do. If we do our best, it shouldn't then be considered as being done poorly. But that's just my opinion.


Which I ask again, why is something as simple as "throwing like a girl" not being a girls best and even "praised" for that (of course knowing not all girls do so, just as all men do not have the limits I do)



WaitingforBoaz -> RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? (5/9/2008 12:08:14 AM)

I think it was, but I think all things feminine and matronly are making a comeback.

I think for the most part we are a product of our upbringing.
I was brought up in the 60's right in the middle of the feminist movement.
My mom agreed with much of what they stood for, but was a stay at home mom with 5 kids. She was also brought up to be a "proper" girl with finishing school as well. She was confused about her identity so that reflected on us. On the one hand we had to be "proper" ladies and on the other we were encouraged to be independent and stand on our own two feet and get out there and get whats ours etc. So when we acted too feminine, we were not tough enough. When we acted assertive, we were not feminine enough. It really was a confusing way to grow up, but we are all very independent so that came through loud and clear.



TomTurn -> RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? (5/9/2008 12:15:36 AM)

And we all know a girl can be brought up to be a "proper girl" with finishing school and all and be independent. Being independent is not unfeminine. It to me is how she goes about it.



WaitingforBoaz -> RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? (5/9/2008 12:35:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn

And we all know a girl can be brought up to be a "proper girl" with finishing school and all and be independent. Being independent is not unfeminine. It to me is how she goes about it.


True, Nowdays.
I'm not sure about when my Mom was girl(she is almost 70), they certainly did not encourage independence of any kind. Much of what my Mom was taught in finishing school, was how to get and keep a man. My mom has been married for almost 50 years. At no point would I have considered my Mom independent enough, to survive on her own, with 5 kids. Put in that situation, she would have had to depend on family. My Mom is independent in thought and spirit but not independent of another human being, if you get what I am saying. She could not stand on her own, if necessary. Sorry, answering your statement took me a little off topic.



car2ner -> RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? (5/9/2008 3:36:59 PM)

quote:

At least two people have made the comment about lace and fru, fru which we all know is not what femininity is all about. But it does kind of sound defensive. And not saying anyone was. Just using the word defensive as a seg way to mention;

Could it be that "femininity" is seen as "weaker" in a lot of ways by the world and especially in the U.S. where "weaker" is seen as bad fairly much at all times?


In the context of lace and froo froo (yes, I brought it up). Picture the soft focus pastel world of a lady in fluffy dresses in a field with butterflies and kittens. That is not femininity but a cartoon image of feminine. In that case, if there was any strength, it would be more of a behind the scenes quiet strength. But on the surface, it does seem very weak.

And other thread that might relate to this one is the "are you a tomboy or girly girl?"



ladyamythist -> RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? (5/9/2008 9:14:24 PM)

I think someone, one of the guys, put it well...he wants to marry a woman, not a man. He likes a woman that is not "one of the boys", I felt. I can agree with him. I just don't like a woman who is dominating, curses, is loud, demanding and unkind. Harsh. I don't like a woman who is harsh. I think it is part of my programming, and God's Word, that has me convinced that God loves a gentle, quiet spirit. I think that there is a nurturing, softness about truly feminine women. There is a trusting spirit within them. They know their Savior and it's reflected in their lives. I think femininity means softness. We women can show that in so many ways.

Men don't show that side of themselves. It's there. I know that. But, they show it in masculine ways. That is a real delight. To see a man with his kids, teaching them, concerned about them, guiding them, you can see and hear his love, but, it is not expressed as a woman would do. And the difference is wonderful. We are different!!!

The world has tried so hard and succeeded in making women look like tarts and harlots with their fashion and their self concepts. The world has no defined lines for either sex/gender to follow. God does. He even prohibits a woman from wearing a man's clothes. Well, if God has lines that He has drawn, who am I to say that they are wrong? I may be the one who is wrong, if I don't agree with him.

We all can have characteristics that are both masculine and feminine. It's how we show them, I think, that sets us apart as feminine and masculine. Funny how the world has never tired of the Marilyn Monroes, the soft, sexy woman, and praised the Clint Eastwood man, isn't it?



ladyamythist -> RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? (5/9/2008 9:16:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn

And we all know a girl can be brought up to be a "proper girl" with finishing school and all and be independent. Being independent is not unfeminine. It to me is how she goes about it.


This is true..and I think what we are all fascinated with...."it's how she goes about it". I really think you hit it on the head for both sexes.



ladyamythist -> RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? (5/9/2008 9:21:00 PM)

Which I ask again, why is something as simple as "throwing like a girl" not being a girls best and even "praised" for that (of course knowing not all girls do so, just as all men do not have the limits I do)
[/quote]


There is something we must do. Recognize the differences between the sexes. And, I know we do. I like having that difference; it makes life more enjoyable. My arms are not as strong as most men, even if I do weights. My muscles are not the same, and therefore, I do not throw the ball as most men do. I think it's a compliment to be told, "Mom, you throw like a girl!!!" And there is always a little wink that goes with that. Recognizing our differences, recognizes us!!!



ladyamythist -> RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? (5/9/2008 9:25:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn

At least two people have made the comment about lace and fru, fru which we all know is not what femininity is all about. But it does kind of sound defensive. And not saying anyone was. Just using the word defensive as a seg way to mention;

Could it be that "femininity" is seen as "weaker" in a lot of ways by the world and especially in the U.S. where "weaker" is seen as bad fairly much at all times?



I love lace, soft fabrics to dress in, colors that don't scream, the sexy side of being a woman, the powder on my nose, the fragrance on my toes...I love the fact that I can gently touch a man's arm, that I can be treasured by him as "one of a kind"...that I can be "his"...there is great power in this... it entrances men...I don't care what the world says...I only care what "he" says.....



car2ner -> RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? (5/10/2008 10:23:12 AM)

now as you consider our answers, look at how we chose to show ourselves, ala avatars...Ladyamythist has the look of a glamourous movie star... today mine is a cartoon of a large hunting cat insearch of monsters... how we see ourselves gives a clue to how we answer this question about femininity.



TomTurn -> RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? (5/14/2008 11:58:10 AM)

quote:

now as you consider our answers, look at how we chose to show ourselves, ala avatars...Ladyamythist has the look of a glamourous movie star... today mine is a cartoon of a large hunting cat insearch of monsters... how we see ourselves gives a clue to how we answer this question about femininity.


More female goobldy gook? :-)



car2ner -> RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? (5/14/2008 3:33:16 PM)

I guess alot of woman-speak sounds like gobbildy gook to men. Sometimes I don't get it either. All I am saying is you have to consider the source to understand the answer. True of anyone, male or female.



Sideways -> RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? (5/17/2008 4:16:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn
"You throw like a girl." "Your a sissy." "He screamed like a girl."

Though we know they are made to be male to male slams. Is it wrong for a girl to take pride in that she throws like a girl? Remember years back when I was about 22 and one of the men in the Church made a joke to one of the 14 year od girls "you are such a sissy". She responded "I am a girl, it is ok for me to be" and it sounded so right coming from the girl she was


The term "throw like a girl" means that the person throws very weakly. I would hope no (future) daughter of mine would ever take pride in throwing weakly. In fact, you can bet my husband would have her in the back yard teaching her to throw properly! If she doesn't enjoy sports, well okay, but don't take pride in the fact that you're bad at it.

Here is Webster's definition of sissy. "a timid or cowardly person" It is not ok for a girl to be timid or cowardly. She can be modest and reserved, but a woman should show courage and the willingness to stand up boldly when the need arises. God does not want timid or cowardly followers. I would be sorely tempted to slap any female would said it was ok to be a sissy. I wouldn't, but I would sure want to.



TomTurn -> RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? (5/17/2008 7:32:50 PM)

quote:

The term "throw like a girl" means that the person throws very weakly.


Says who?

If a girl dresses like a girl is she dressing poorly?



LivingParadox -> RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? (5/18/2008 9:26:26 PM)

I see the word feminine as desciptive not something negative. I suppose how you define being "feminine" is applied would play into my thoughts on the question. But I see no contridiction in being able wear makeup, heels and be a capable person in the world. You can also be feminine with old work clothes on, mowing the yard. I think maybe we try to put people into too narrow a definition.

Now if you are wanting me to collect Hummels or other cutsie collection of choice, have tea parties, and faint at the sight of a mouse....you've got the wrong girl. Being a "girly" girl and being feminine is not the same thing.

But otherwise, I like being a girl.



BugLady -> RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? (5/18/2008 9:27:58 PM)

quote:

I think maybe we try to put people into too narrow a definition.


That's almost exactly what I was thinking.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? (5/20/2008 12:03:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn
Has femininity become a dirty word?

Tom, I am not very feminine, in my opinion. Wait -- let me ask my husband. Fortunately, he tells the truth, and I love the truth.

He says yes.
I asked, "What is your evidence?"
Well, you're certainly not a masculine person. Your being feminine is not a negative thing.
Again, what is your evidence?
The way that you love your kids.
But men love their kids.
Not in the same way -- you're quicker to be compassionate with people.
We've lost the definition of femininism, and we've also lost the definition of what it means to be masculine.
You're somewhat of a feminist, but not in the radical way that people think of the term. You are more independent than what most people think of as feminine.
Do I dress femininely?
Yes.
Do I carry myself femininely?
Yes.
When I'm walking down the street, and my back is to you, can you tell I am a woman?
Yes.
I get annoyed sometimes because I want to hold doors open for you, and I get rebuffed. To me, it's my way of showing respect to you as my wife. But we do things out of mutual love and respect, but if it isn't important to you, why should I do it?

Well, there are his answers. I am glad he sees me as feminine, because I know I should be noticeably a woman, because that is what G-d created me to be. I really try. One of the ways I try is by my haircut.



doinkdom -> RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? (6/5/2008 12:08:51 PM)

Femininity is not a dirty word at all.

There is no comparison between biblical femininity with humanistic feminism. They are not the same. But don't be fooled into thinking that biblical femininity is being a doormat or that a Christian woman is no longer to have her mind with valid and trusted opinions, and/or actions. Not true.

However, the history of woman at the hands of men is full of dirt. [;)]

I like being female. It is only tradition that associates pink ruffles with being female...nothing in the bible supports women have only one choice in life to be taken care of. There is as much diversity in being female as there is in being male.



locomom -> RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? (6/6/2008 12:50:31 PM)

To answer your question, TomTurn, I would need to know what you mean by feminine. Your definitions are rather vague since our society has had an ongoing conflict about what it means to be a man or a woman. By traditional, do you mean pre-feminism? I would hope not, because that entail a lot of disrespectful nonsense about women. Since the conflict is now about 50 years old, it would help me if you would explain what you are looking for?



locomom -> RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? (6/10/2008 2:11:10 PM)

After rereading the discussion, it seems to mean the major question is, "What does it mean to be feminine?" At my age, almost 49. I have live through the sexual revolution and hard core feminism. I have also experienced a lot of assumptions about women that are just not true.

Yes, ruffles and lace are female and long tresses are dominantly female, but they do not define feminine. Personally speaking, when I was a young married, learning to be a wife, I looked very young. Although I am 4 weeks older than my husband, someone asked me if I was his daughter. Whenever I tried on much in the way of ruffles and lace, I looked like I was playing dress-up in Mommy's clothes. Needless to say, I didn't purchase much of that.

I am at heart a tomboy. I grew up with three older brothers and of course tried to be like them. I used to be skilled at throwing, loved softball, loved racquetball, loved hiking. My husband knows that I will play rather competitively with him, but only if a lot of laughter goes along with it. In racquetball, I would ace him with my serve and he in return would arc the ball so that I ended up under the highest part of the bounce of the ball so I could not reach it. We laughed a lot mostly.

It is demeaning to equate being unskilled at something as "being a girl." Of course it is also demeaning to assume a man is unskilled in the home and that work is demeaning to him It speaks poorly of him that he doesn't take actual physical care of his baby by not changing a diaper or doesn't want to learn to calm down his child. Those are skill, not women's territory. I played on a church women's softball team with too many women who didn't trust their own beloved husband to handle his own children while they went to practice. I also saw that too many times it was more about control than about ability.

My husband and I cross a lot of traditional gender roles by personality and other traits. It's just the way we are. My husband does not see me as unfeminine. I don't wear perfume or lace or burn linen scented Yankee Candles. If I did, I would have contact dermatitis or itch or my husband would be totally congested with his nose running and his wife coughing from asthma.

After input from others I would like to try to actually define feminine.



rgod -> RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? (6/11/2008 2:29:40 PM)

I don't think that I can answer the question of "what is femininity" in a thorough and definitive way, but I would like to provide some points for discussion. I would say that femininity, like masculinity does indeed have a biological basis. The functioning of the male and female brains are indeed different. Certain processes in women take place across both sides of the brain. When men perform certain functions, their brains tends to process them in one or two localized areas, which I find to be very interesting. I do think that both men and women can be compassionate, caring, aggressive, powerful ... but there is something that is often a bit different in the ways in which these traits are carried out. I think that maybe there are approaches to certain things - like for instance, a more collaborative approach to solving problems, that can be deemed as more "feminine" than "masculine." And yet, even this I don't think is the complete picture - since we know that cultural norms can affect even this.

To me, femininity and masculinity goes beyond the biological differences; it is something intangible but indelible. I am a woman. It goes deeply into the core of who I am; the only thing deeper is the fact that I am a Christian. There is something about the way that I see the world, the way that I move about in it, all of my experiences, my expression, that is definitely female - not lesser, just different. And I know that there is a completely different dynamic when I interact with other females than when I interact with males. There is a kind of a complement that I experience with a man that is not present than I experience during conversation with a woman. It is something that for me, is beyond words or language - and I don't have a metaphor to even express the depth of it right off the top of my head. I just know that femininity is not ... it isn't so much a collection of external things - like whether I wear lace or Carlos Santana shoes (so stylish) or am a mother. It isn't being a man minus certain things and plus certain things - like some sort of mathematical equation. It is something so woven into the fabric of who I am and in the fabric of other women, that I find it difficult to define. But I know it when I experience it.

I have a friend who is very "feminine" - if degrees of femininity can be assigned. When I speak with her, I am aware of my own coarseness - and no one else has ever applied that word to me (I am fairly gentle, but can be a bit brisk if I need to be). Her femininity highlights my own and also highlights the more "masculine" parts of me as well. I want to be more feminine when I am in her presence. Conversely when I am with a man, particularly one who loves me, there is an automatic yielding and adapting that takes place in me. I might be the only one experiencing this, but the presence of masculinity provokes this in me. So, I recognize femininity and masculinity when I see it and feel it - but I think that it is difficult to capture it or put boundaries around it.

I'm looking forward to hearing more thoughts on this issue.



_CANCELLED_ -> RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? (6/14/2008 5:29:53 PM)

Good question. I think among women it has, sadly. I've seen some very heated discussions when someone asks why women don't dress or act very feminine anymore. I'm a woman and I wonder the same thing. I love my femininity. I love being a woman.



PaleHawkWoman -> RE: Has femininity become a dirty word? (6/14/2008 6:02:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn

To expand this, do any of you know of any girls/women who were chastized for being feminine or too feminine?


My mother used to chastise me for being a tomboy. My teachers used to get on to me for being too agressively involved in classroom discussions and answering before the guys, not to mention showing the guys up by answering correctly; they said I'd never get a date doing that.

But I've always been feminine, proud to be female. Growing up in traditional Cherokee culture, there was a clear definition of what are male and female roles in our society. Women are the life-givers, the mothers of the people. We are the keepers of the hearth, we tend the fields and feed the people. The home is ours and so is the responsibility for making it a warm and inviting place where all feel welcome, and where husband and wife can live in peace. The woman is mother, wife, and warrior- protecting her marriage, family, and home, guarding her heart and her husband's heart. She is fierce and gentle, healer and warrior, loyal and generous to those she loves but a formidable foe to those who threaten her family and loved ones. She is capable, competent, compassionate. Her mind's horizon's are as high and as broad as the sky, her heart as deep as the oceans and warm as the summer sun, and her spirit filled with immeasurable strength and fire.

That's the definition of feminine I grew up with and the way I walk as a woman.



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