Heaven here on Earth, really? (Full Version)

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stampinlady -> Heaven here on Earth, really? (5/7/2008 6:07:34 PM)

I've noticed latley that there's this , "I can save the world" mentality in society, even amungst believers. Jesus said that "the poor will always be with us." when speaking to his desciples so if that's true then how can we stop hunger? I was in a service a few weeks ago and the subject was giving to those in need. I swear I heard the speaker say that we could erase hunger, but I kept thinking about what Jesus said. I know WOF teachers teach stuff similer to this, but isn't it suppose to get worse before Jesus returns?



mvic -> RE: Heaven here on Earth, really? (5/7/2008 6:12:10 PM)

When Jesus said: "the poor will always be with you" no one present asked Him: "WHY?"

Or if they did - His answer is not recorded in the Bible.

Could it be perhaps to teach us to look after those worse off than ourselves?

What do you think?



zamdad -> RE: Heaven here on Earth, really? (5/7/2008 6:48:20 PM)

Here's my take on it. There will always be those who, for whatever reason, are down and out. Job losses, death in the family, fire, accidents, natural disaters, mental illness, etc. There are always going to be some who have need and we are to be there to meet those needs. On the other hand, there are those who choose poverty. This second group does not want to work and expects everyone else to provide for them.

I think we have gotten away from what Christ taught. He was speaking to us individually about caring for our neighbors as well as collectively. We, in the past several generations, have adapted a pattern of thinking that we have to solve problems such as hunger, homelessness, etc., through the establishment of programs. While our programs are often designed with the best of intentions, we fail to build the relationships (discipleship) to help those is need grow and be built up in Christ.

Even worse, the government has taken on much of the responsibilty of trying to fix humanity of its problems. The government has yet to get it right. We need to quit looking to the government and the corporate entity of the church to solve our problems and begin seeing Christ in the people we come into contact with on a daily basis. He also told us that He was hungry and we gave Him nothing to eat. He was thirsty and we gave Him nothing to drink. Sometimes, it seems, we start programs to make ourselves feel better as opposed to truly trying to make disciples.



HisCovenant -> RE: Heaven here on Earth, really? (5/7/2008 7:29:16 PM)

We definately won't erase hunger and the poor until sin stops, although we may be able to help to slow it down as we are able. Lots of people who are poor and hungry have done nothing to get themselves poor or hungry... however, many who are poor and hungry are that way because of their own sin or others sin. By that, I mean some make sinful choices and these issues are the consequences... whether you are speaking of a dictator who starves his people so he can become wealthy and powerful to a man who neglects his bills and gets into overwhelming debt.

In Deut. 15, the Lord warns the Israelites that this will be the case for them. If they follow Him there will be no poor... but then He gives instructions for how to treat the poor.



SonInMe1 -> RE: Heaven here on Earth, really? (5/7/2008 9:36:38 PM)

Context. Jesus said there will always be poor amungst us when He was confronted by the "waste" of expensive perfume being applied to Him that should have been sold and the proceeds given to the poor.

Jesus was telling the disciples that His time on earth was limited but the poor will always be with them. Seems to me He was also saying we have an obligation.

To me, it says the reason why there are poor is because there are some, many, who won't believe in Him. That...is true poverty, a poverty of the spirit, that almost certainly will lead to financial poverty.

Why would God tell us to test Him with the tithe if there wasn't a spiritual aspect to financial prosperity? Malchi 3:10.

Sure you can be rich and be in spiritual poverty...no doubt. You can also be poor and be in spiritual prosperity. Its a diuverse creation out there and I'm not advocating any get rich spiritual formula here.

I am just saying poverty of the heart will often lead to financial poverty. The cure for heart poverty? Jesus.



deliveredarling -> RE: Heaven here on Earth, really? (5/8/2008 7:06:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stampinlady

I've noticed latley that there's this , "I can save the world" mentality in society, even amungst believers. Jesus said that "the poor will always be with us." when speaking to his desciples so if that's true then how can we stop hunger? I was in a service a few weeks ago and the subject was giving to those in need. I swear I heard the speaker say that we could erase hunger, but I kept thinking about what Jesus said. I know WOF teachers teach stuff similer to this, but isn't it suppose to get worse before Jesus returns?

You nailed it on the head with the "I can save the world". We aren't meant to save the world. That's Jesus' job. Are there things we can do? Sure. We do more harm than good, when we decide that someone needs saving. That is us wanting that person to be changed and attempting to make that happen. The HS creates in people a desire for change. It is more important for us to live al life reflecting the change in us so that people will ask us what is different. They see it and want it. We are to help the poor, again, there is only so much we are capable of. They have to make choices to. We decided to follow Christ, maybe they have, maybe they haven't. We spread the gospel to "feed the poor", the poor in spirit. We clothe them, in the clothes of righteousness, we shield the with the shield of faith. Sometimes we are the only Jesus they will ever see. We can't solve their problems, but we can point them in the right direction.



stampinlady -> RE: Heaven here on Earth, really? (5/8/2008 9:20:12 AM)

quote:

You nailed it on the head with the "I can save the world". We aren't meant to save the world.


Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about. I believe we are to be good stewards of our "time, money and talents, " but to think we can save the world is very worldly. Right?

Zamdad, you mentioned the government being involved and I think that's a valid point.



ManimalX -> RE: Heaven here on Earth, really? (5/11/2008 9:44:36 PM)

zamdad, excellent post. Folks would be well serve to read what you wrote again. You have really laid bare the problem with liberalism and the Democrat party: they erroneously assign the role of the church to the government, clinging to a belief that if we could just get more programs in place and redistribute enough money from the wealthy then we could solve every human woe.


quote:

We aren't meant to save the world. That's Jesus' job.


I must respectfully but strongly point out that this is false. Though the kingdom of God on Earth is not yet, the beachhead for invasion was established by Christ. We are the body of Christ on Earth. If something is Jesus' job, it is ours. Feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, comforting the afflicted... yup, that's us.

We are responsible for advancing the renewing power of the kingdom of God into every aspect of creation until Christ's return.



Prairiehiker -> RE: Heaven here on Earth, really? (5/11/2008 10:21:41 PM)

My interpretation of the verse when taken in context is that Jesus came here to transform the heart and with the heart transformation, economic transformation will follow. In the story, Mary used a very expensive of perfume to wash Jesus' feet. According to some historians, the bottle of perfume was worth a lot, and if sold, could be used to feed a lot of poor. But Jesus said that there will be poor always. Was he saying that the worship of one woman is better than feeding the poor? I don't believe so. What I understood Jesus to be saying is that this woman has had a heart transformation, and when a heart has been transformed by the power and love of God, she can do so much more. She can offer not just food for the poor, but her heart has been opened that she can see them as Jesus sees them. She can perhaps start making changes in her life that will impact the economic conditions of the poor. Her action suggest that she isn't so self focused anymore; that she is offering her most precious possesion to God. Ever heard of the phrase, "give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day; teach him to fish, and he'll eat for a lifetime". Perhaps this was what Jesus was saying. Don't just feed the poor. Let your heart be transformed that you start seeing the poor through Jesus eyes.



Walker311 -> RE: Heaven here on Earth, really? (5/11/2008 10:42:01 PM)

quote:

but isn't it suppose to get worse before Jesus returns?


The events of 9/11 were indeed terrible and very sad but it gave us all a glimpse into the how such things affect humanity as a whole. It shook us to our core!

Times of trouble has a way of helping us to see clearly. 9/11 stirred people to seek God. It changed many perspectives especially on how vulnerable we truly are. The impact quickly faded but this event does not lessen the probability of another event being much worse and having lasting effects.

We cannot eradicate hunger and many problems that we face in this world but we all have the power to change the world around us. We should start first in our own homes by how we relate to our family members. How can we reach out to others when we are failures with members of our own families? Next, we have a responsibility to our neighbors.

My church has many outreach programs and ministries that can use our help both physically and financially. Everyone should be doing something to help others in some way. We can sit on our hands and let the church and government aid others but what does this say about our Christian walk?



RJR_fan -> RE: Heaven here on Earth, really? (5/13/2008 3:29:14 AM)

quote:

We definately won't erase hunger and the poor until sin stops, although we may be able to help to slow it down as we are able. Lots of people who are poor and hungry have done nothing to get themselves poor or hungry... however, many who are poor and hungry are that way because of their own sin or others sin.


When churches ran charities a few hundred years ago, they could make distinctions between the deserving and undeserving poor. Christians back then knew that the only way to truly feed the poor was from the table of the Lord. Those who were willing to work, and to sit under the discipline of Bible preaching, were made part of the Christian community. They were provided with mentors and pastoral care.

Christian charity is premised on the willingness to work. Even disabled widows can still pray, after all. Everyone has something useful to contribute. And, "If any man will not work, neither let him eat." It is sometimes a sin to feed the hungry. "Government" "charity" depends on the willingness to stand in line and provide jobs for bureaucrats.

Poverty is relative. A guy once said he wanted to move from India to America, "where even the poor people are fat." Nikita Khrushchev asked to tour the American slums, and thought he was getting the "Potemkin village" treatment. After all, those shabby apartments had TV antennas! The poorest people in a rich country today have more conveniences than the kings of medieval Europe.

Meanwhile, Teen Challenge helps 2/3 of the addicts who enter their programs break free. Government programs spend enormous sums of taxpayer money and are legally barred from offering "the J factor" (Jesus) and therefore fail more than 90% of the time. Home schooling families spend a few hundred dollars per child per year, and raise kids who outperform those who have "benefited" from $10,000+ per year of taxpayer money. The "J factor," again. A little, with God's blessing upon it, will normally trump massive doses of stolen money.

Christianity makes a visible difference wherever it is applied -- and we are commanded to pray "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."

Does Jesus tell us to pray for the impossible? Believe it or not, some folks assert that this prayer means, "O, get me out of the time I'm in, and bring the next age in without any connection to what I'm doing now in and with the time I've been given!"

Deuteronomy 11:18-21 connects the theme of this conversation to home schooling, BTW.

quote:

18 Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
19 And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
20 And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house, and upon thy gates:
21 That your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers to give them, as the days of heaven upon the earth.


The Christian marriage bed and the Christian dinner table definitely are designed to provides glimpses of eternal joy. Joy is available to any who are willing to live for God. The kingdom of heaven is like a roaring great party -- and the hilarity of hospitality makes it visible on earth.



RJR_fan -> RE: Heaven here on Earth, really? (5/13/2008 3:31:04 AM)

quote:

but to think we can save the world is very worldly. Right?


No, but God can, using us. Re-read John 3:16 -- what was it that "God so loved?"



deliveredarling -> RE: Heaven here on Earth, really? (5/13/2008 7:10:54 AM)

Quote from delivereddarling
quote:

We aren't meant to save the world. That's Jesus' job.


quote:

I must respectfully but strongly point out that this is false.
quote:




Please take this in context. I am speaking from a salvic point of view here. This we are powerless against. We can speak the truth, lead, guide and disciple, however, we did not die on the cross for anyone's sins. This makes it impossible for us to save anyone.....



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