how to be friends with atheists (Full Version)

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luvmysavior -> how to be friends with atheists (5/14/2008 2:09:24 PM)

Hi, I'm new to this forum and I need advice on an issue that has been tormenting me for some time. I'm married with 2 kids, my oldest is a 6 year old boy. I have a friend I've known since college, 15 years ago, who is married with a nine year old daughter. My friend and her husband are atheists and are raising their daughter as an atheist.

A few months ago, their daughter told my little boy that she does not believe in God. This rocked my son's world. He was very upset and confused. As a result, my husband does not want our son to spend time with our friends' daughter. I agree with him, because our son is at an impressionable age. The problem is, how can I explain this to my friend, without losing her friendship, and without destroying my witness? I'm afraid that she will think, "Another judgemental, close-minded Christian!" But my husband and I are on the same page, and I have been "avoiding" my friend for several months because I have no idea how to handle this.

Any advice? THANK YOU!



KyivJoy -> RE: how to be friends with atheists (5/14/2008 2:44:23 PM)

I had the same problem when my children were little. I have the same problem with my Ukrainian foster children. don't stop him seeing your friend's child, but sit down with him, show him some of the God's wonders, flowers, animals, the beauty of different things, including himself and ask him if they just came into being and that there had to be someone greater than man to creat them. Explain that many people try to explain them away scientifically, but if he thinks about it carefully it can't be. Also explain to him about things that happen when we pray for something, they sometimes come about in strange ways. Athiests call these events coincidence, but they happen too often. My husband and I call them God events.

As you son grows he will come across many people who are athiest, you cannot shield him from them. If you try to he will think you are trying to hide something from him. Be honest with him, about what we KNOW and what anthiest THINK they know.

He will start to ask many questions as he grows and, as I said, you can't shelter him for ever. If you don't know the answer be honest and tell him you don't know, but will try to find out, then start looking in the Bible, asking people in your church, particular the pastor.

Your friend will probably sense or find out why you are avoiding her, don't. Tell her that you probably over reacted and that it was the first time your son had realised that not everyone is a Christian. Also get your son to pray for your friend and her daughter. don't forgot, it took St Augustine's mother 25 years to see the light.



manda59 -> RE: how to be friends with atheists (5/14/2008 2:47:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luvmysavior
A few months ago, their daughter told my little boy that she does not believe in God. This rocked my son's world.


Could I just ask why ("it rocked his world")? Does he not know that some people believe in God and some people don't, that it is for each of us to choose?

quote:


He was very upset and confused. As a result, my husband does not want our son to spend time with our friends' daughter. I agree with him, because our son is at an impressionable age.


I have to say that I don't understand this at all. Could they not still spend time together in your home, whilst you are there to supervise (and show this girl love)?

quote:


The problem is, how can I explain this to my friend, without losing her friendship, and without destroying my witness? I'm afraid that she will think, "Another judgemental, close-minded Christian!" But my husband and I are on the same page, and I have been "avoiding" my friend for several months because I have no idea how to handle this.


I have no way of advising you how to "explain" this, because I would have handled the situation totally differently. I am sure it depends on the individual child, but at age 6 both of my children were at school with non-Christians all day long and were able to understand/cope with those who didn't believe. I actually think your friends may even deserve an apology. After all, they have done nothing wrong. It's not even as if your friend has suddenly become an atheist, so I actually think you are being rather unfair.

My only advice would be to better equip your son to deal with such situations, rather than trying to shield him totally from non-Christians.



luvmysavior -> RE: how to be friends with atheists (5/14/2008 3:02:44 PM)

Thank you, KyivJoy, for your wise words! I agree, he will encounter many, many non-believers as he grows older. My husband's point, however, is that we don't need to unneccessarily expose our son to this, on purpose, in our own home. Our son is not really friends with the nine year old girl--it is more a friendship between me and the other mom, and as a result, the two kids play together a little (or used to). We did talk to our son and explained to him that some people do not believe, etc., and we prayed together, for our friends.

Our thought is that he is still trying to figure out his faith, and that he is too young to defend his faith to a professed atheist, especially since he has not fully come to understand his own salvation (he has not taken that step yet). If he were older, and if he were saved himself, I would be using this situation to teach him how to witness to others. I guess we're just concerned about deliberately placing him into contact with a decided unbeliever (in other words, it is not something happening at school, etc., but instead it's someone we can choose to place in our son's life or not).

One more note--I have talked to my friend in the past about my faith, I've invited her to church, etc., but they are not interested.



miasma -> RE: how to be friends with atheists (5/14/2008 3:30:37 PM)

I don't agree with not allowing your son to spend time with this girl, at all. Your son is going to come into contact with decided and undecided unbelievers.I think it's a wonderful opportunity to start talking to your son, about life outside the Christian bubble and equip him to handle it. That way, as such things happen, he doesn't run scared and hide, but he can talk intelligently and stand his own ground.

It also would be pretty rude to your friend of 15 years.

quote:

I'm afraid that she will think, "Another judgemental, close-minded Christian!"


She's been your friend for 15 years. The difference of faith is no secret. Yet, you can't talk to her about this?



luvmysavior -> RE: how to be friends with atheists (5/14/2008 3:45:05 PM)

I totally agree with the need to equip him to stand firm in his faith. I think that I might not have made my initial point very well. We see our friends periodically, every few months. Ever since this happened, my friend and I have stayed in touch as we normally do. We have done some pet sitting for them while they were away, etc. So maybe my choice of words ("avoiding" them) was not totally accurate. We have still stayed in touch as usual, we just haven't gotten the kids together.

Also, to clarify another point, my friend and her husband were not atheists until a few years ago. I of course remained friends with them, and we just agreed to disagree, and have had a good friendship. I just don't know if this is a life lesson that I want to "force" on my son yet. As I mentioned, if it were happening at school, it would just be something to deal with. But to purposely put them together just now....I'm not sure. I truly do appreciate all your responses and I am taking them to heart!



pbaribeault -> RE: how to be friends with atheists (5/14/2008 5:59:04 PM)

I don't think he has to defend his faith. All he has to say is, "I know some people don't believe in God, but I do."

You can, tactfully talk with your friend and ask her if she thinks it is a good idea to help your 2 kids learn the same sort of agree-to-disagree skills that you two have learned. Let her know it's especially important to you because her child is older (therefore smarter and more articulate) than your child. You know that the girl probably already knows better than to be forceful with her atheism, and you're hoping that religious differences won't be talked about too often between the kids.

I'm not sure what it is about the girl that your son is being 'exposed to' - the knowledge that non-Christians exist is out of the bag now, along with the idea that non-Christians are ordinary people and generally nice enough to be around. So as long as the girl does not challenge him or upset him with her views, and as long as her conduct is wholesome, I don't see any bad-influencing going on.

Your son is at an impressionable age -- ask yourself, what DO you want him to believe about the lost? If exposure to an average non-Christian (who is neither argumentative nor unwholesome) is contrary to what you are trying to teach, then you might want to evaluate whether what you are trying to teach is entirely accurate.



manda59 -> RE: how to be friends with atheists (5/14/2008 7:18:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luvmysavior
I just don't know if this is a life lesson that I want to "force" on my son yet.



I live in the UK, which is a largely secular society. Maybe it's different where you are, but my children mixed with non-believers right from when they started school at age 4, and our raising of them was specifically geared towards equipping and enabling them to know how to deal with this kind of environment. Right now, my 14 yo dd is in a Year Group of 200 at school, where she is the only Christian. In a school of nearly 1500 pupils, there are fewer than 6 who regularly attend the Christian Union meetings. It was much the same when my ds was at school (he is 18 now and at University) - for most of his time at high school, there was just one other believer in his Year Group.

Is your son's year group at school all or mostly Christians? Have you perhaps decided that he is to only be allowed to have Christian friends?



luvmysavior -> RE: how to be friends with atheists (5/14/2008 7:26:07 PM)

Pbaribault, I thank you for your comments. They are very helpful and practical. I know that my son was upset for a period of time after this happened, mostly because he was worried about her (my friend's daughter). He seemed stressed out, and, while I did use his many questions (for several days) as opportunities to talk about faith, some people's lack of faith, etc., I just wondered if this is too much stress for him, especially since it is avoidable (i.e., we don't have to choose this particular child to play with, since the only thing in common is that their mothers are friends).

I know I am probably being overprotective--I do want to do the right thing, and he is my firstborn, so everything is new with him!



luvmysavior -> RE: how to be friends with atheists (5/14/2008 7:35:09 PM)

quote:

Is your son's year group at school all or mostly Christians? Have you perhaps decided that he is to only be allowed to have Christian friends?


Manda59, you make a very good point. My son goes to public school (kindergarten). We live in the southern U.S., so definitely the Bible Belt. Christianity is the norm. However, we attend a nondenominational church that emphasizes reaching out to the lost. I wholeheartedly agree with this. My husband, too, is a pastor's kid, who went to public schools and was in contact with numerous nonbelievers. He wasn't sheltered. I guess the way I feel right now is that I'm fine with my son being friends with nonbelievers (he plays with other boys in his class who don't really go to church). For me, the real issue is whether to purposely place him with a child with whom he has nothing much in common (other than the moms being friends), for no reason except so my friend and I can visit, knowing that she professes atheism (she is being actively taught this), at an age where he himself is just trying to figure things out. Is that too much pressure for him, since he's just learning about his faith himself? Realizing, of course, that I do want him to be strong in his faith after he actually HAS a faith! [;)]



buckifn -> RE: how to be friends with atheists (5/15/2008 6:54:29 AM)

First, I don't think there is such a thing as an atheist. I have always made that clear to my children. Secondly, I go to the Word ..."we are in the world, but not of the world." I also try to make it clear even now to my children that the choices they make do not have to be decided because of the influence of the world. Of course we can't shield our kids from ungodliness in this world, but we can talk to them and teach them how to make wise choices based on the Word of God.

My approach to a 6 yr. old would be something along the lines of this- ______ (name of friend) does not yet know or understand the love of God. How can you and I show him/her today how much God loves them?

After discussing that I would do what we both agreed upon to share God's love and leave it at that. We don't have to convert anyone, but loving them is a commandment. It would be wonderful to begin showing your son how to do that now.



miasma -> RE: how to be friends with atheists (5/15/2008 9:04:10 AM)

quote:

I just don't know if this is a life lesson that I want to "force" on my son yet.


Hm...though I can understand where you're coming from, and what your concerns are, upon further reading of new posts, I think you might be over-reacting a little bit. I can't say I would consider the fact that not everybody is a Christian a "life lesson!"

And it's certainly not being forced, in any way. I'd say a playmate is a pretty natural way for him to find out about life outside the Christian bubble. Atheist parents. Single parents. Gay parents. Jewish parents. *anything different than what he's used to* parents.

I would leave the friends out of it, and address your sons fears. What was he worried about? The thought of someone going to hell? I think if he's old enough to have concerns, he's old enough to have his concerns addressed.

I don't think there's anything wrong with allowing him to play with her, while your friend visits. Perhaps, if you'd feel more comfortable, you can invite one more child over, of your choosing.

If it were me, I'd want to team up with the other parents, and talk to our children together - at least the moms. Over lunch, just have a casual discussion, see what the kids have to say, and talk about it.



cindybode -> RE: how to be friends with atheists (5/15/2008 7:14:30 PM)

One question - if we never associate with non-Christians, how on earth do we ever win anyone to Christ?

This is a great opportunity to teach your son to defend his faith. I know he's pretty young yet, but if your friend's daughter asks him a question about God, he should know how to answer it or know to come to you for an answer. Help him know what to say if the friend asks how he knows there is a God.

Otherwise, teach him to play nicely and find topics of conversation that interest them both.



luvmysavior -> RE: how to be friends with atheists (5/17/2008 1:44:00 PM)

quote:

One question - if we never associate with non-Christians, how on earth do we ever win anyone to Christ?


I think that I have not explained myself very well, and I regret that. I'm not suggesting that we keep from associating ourselves with non-Christians. In fact, my husband and I have other non-believing friends who we regularly invite and take to church with us. Whereas some churches are happy with the members they already have, and don't make a huge effort to grow, our church is "all about" inviting people who don't know Christ, and we have grown to about thirty thousand members in five locations. And my husband and I are part of that effort--we believe that we set a good example for our children that way. Sometimes our kids ask us, "Is anyone going to church with us this weekend?" So, yes, I fully believe in setting this example and I take sharing the gospel very seriously.

I guess my point is, what is the healthy balance between protecting your children and teaching them things prematurely? As parents, we do have to show our kids how to evangelize. But all of us would agree that we do protect our kids from many influences, every step of the way, more so when they are younger. Another person posted earlier that there are many realities, such as gay parents, that our kids will have to learn about. I'm not prepared to introduce that to my son yet, even though it's a fact of life, and I believe that as Christians we are to love everyone, including homosexuals (who are welcome with open arms at our church too).

The other thing is that my son is very persistent. I can predict what he will say just about every time he sees our friends' daughter... he will ask, "Do you believe in God yet?" He will be the pushy one, not her. I've thought about talking with him ahead of time and explaining that we don't want to make her uncomfortable, but I don't want to send the wrong message and have him think that it's not okay to talk about his faith; because that's the opposite of what we teach him. Our family is not private about our faith, and that's what he sees. So, to tell him to avoid the topic when he's around our friends' daughter, would seem inconsistent.

I'm not sure if that goes any further to explain my situation, and I may certainly be an overprotective parent in this particular area. But I wanted to get my point across that my husband and I share a history of going outside the "Holy Huddle," as our pastor calls it, and sharing Christ with many, including most recently a self-proclaimed Wiccan who has now gone to church with us several times!



VisitorinWaiting -> RE: how to be friends with atheists (5/17/2008 2:52:30 PM)

I guess I am going against the norm here, but the Bible does say, "Bad company corrupts good morals." Now, you have to define company...I would say letting your children play together qualifies...so I wouldn't let the children play together. I would rarely talk to the woman, honestly. This may sound harsh, but my first priority is my children and winning them to Christ...friends come second. This is Biblical. A former pastor and his wife were talking to the youth group once, when I was a part of the youth group, about how far you go to win someone to Christ. Do you ask once and if they say no, let it go? No. BUT after several times of asking, and you see it's getting no where, leave it to God. Pray for them, pray for God to place someone in their lives that can lead them to Himself, but at some point, you know that they have tuned you out... I would think that you and your friend have had discussions about this... and agreeing to disagree is not the answer...if she refuses you continually, then at some point, you have to pray and give it to God. Bad company DOES corrupt good morals. I'm sure that many of us have seen this happen.



manda59 -> RE: how to be friends with atheists (5/17/2008 4:55:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VisitorinWaiting
I guess I am going against the norm here, but the Bible does say, "Bad company corrupts good morals."


Well, I don't want to take this off-track, but I personally don't consider somebody to be "bad company" (in terms of morality) just because they are not Christians.

My late father was an atheist, and he was just about the most moral person I've known in my whole life.

Unless we decide to keep our children in some kind of Christian bubble, our children are going to meet up with non-Christian children from a whole variety of backgrounds.

My POV is that they need to be taught how to deal with this company, rather than isolating themselves from it. And that that needs to start from an early age.



VisitorinWaiting -> RE: how to be friends with atheists (5/17/2008 6:18:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: manda59
My POV is that they need to be taught how to deal with this company, rather than isolating themselves from it. And that that needs to start from an early age.


I ducked and covered after my post, knowing that it wouldn't go over well with some. I won't take time to address each part of your post...I tried to make my point clear, to the point, and Biblically based, so I have nothing else to say concerning that. I did want to address this part though. I never said that we should isolate our children. My children are not isolated and have, at age 3 and 4, invited non-Christians to church, but do not keep company with these people. I shield them at their young age, but I do not isolate them. I think that a six year old still needs to be shielded.



sen10tious -> RE: how to be friends with atheists (5/17/2008 6:58:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luvmysavior

. . . I know that my son was upset for a period of time after this happened, mostly because he was worried about her (my friend's daughter). He seemed stressed out, and, while I did use his many questions (for several days) as opportunities to talk about faith, some people's lack of faith, etc., I just wondered if this is too much stress for him, especially since it is avoidable (i.e., we don't have to choose this particular child to play with, since the only thing in common is that their mothers are friends).
. . . --I do want to do the right thing, and he is my firstborn, so everything is new with him!


I’m sorry but I don’t think I understand yet. Are you saying that the reason you son was upset (his world rocked) was because, even as a child, he has a heart for the lost and just could not comprehend anyone not believing in God? Or did you mean it started to make him doubt his own views? Because the approach you should take would very different in each case.

If he is worried about the other girl’s salvation, or lack thereof, he is tougher than you've given him credit for. Start looking at how you ought to be training your evangelist-in-the-making. Some of that training will be protective, like teaching him to be tactful; but it won’t be overprotective from fear. Have you challenged him to accept Jesus for himself yet? That is always a good starting point.



10SNE1? -> RE: how to be friends with atheists (5/17/2008 7:47:16 PM)

Hi luvmysavior and Welcome!

I noticed that you often mention that you and your husband "invite people to church" and that your church is "all about" inviting the lost. May I suggest that, while this might still be the normal form of reaching the lost in the Bible Belt, it really isn't all effective in other parts of the country/world. You need to prepare your son to reach a lost world in which it is no longer out of the ordinary or scandalous to just not go to church on Sunday. And this, by definition, requires that we be willing to meet people where they are and "do life" with them.

We teach our kids ( and I mean the kids at our church more than my own. My own are young adults, I work in Kids Ministry) that they can impact the Kingdom for Christ right now. They aren't "the future of the church" they are the church right now. Of course, the first step is their own faith in Christ as their Savior, however, they need to know that as soon as they are Christians, they are called to share the love of Christ to a lost world.

Putting my "mom hat" back on for a second, let me assure you that you and your husband WILL have a greater impact on your son than friends, school or even the church and this is how God designed it to work. You do not need to fear the world. That which is in us is greater than that which is in the world.

I understand the fear and uncertainty that comes with the realization that your children are now old enough to be influenced beyond your home, however, take courage! Instill in your son the confidence that that comes from being a child of the King. Please don't, by your actions, teach him that the world is to be avoided and feared. Teach him that the world needs Jesus and He has left us here to reach them.

I sense that you are feeling misunderstood and a little beat up. I'm sorry, I don't believe that is anyone's intention. I think it is awesome that you have maintained this friendship and are earnestly seeking to show the love of Christ to your friends. Please don't sell your son short. The love of Christ as it shines thorough a child can be one of the most powerful witnesses there is.

Deb



manda59 -> RE: how to be friends with atheists (5/17/2008 8:07:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VisitorinWaiting
I think that a six year old still needs to be shielded.



We will have to agree to disagree. I think that a six year old needs to be enabled and empowered.



luvmysavior -> RE: how to be friends with atheists (5/17/2008 10:01:31 PM)

quote:

Of course, the first step is their own faith in Christ as their Savior, however, they need to know that as soon as they are Christians, they are called to share the love of Christ to a lost world.


I think you hit on one of my sticking points, that my son is moving toward accepting Christ into his heart, but that spiritual transaction has not yet occured. Last weekend he asked us what baptism means, etc., so we are seeing his spiritual journey take place, but we want to make sure that it's completely his decision, that he truly understands his need for Christ. So, do I put him in the situation of trying to reach the lost, before he himself even fully understands his own need for salvation?



luvmysavior -> RE: how to be friends with atheists (5/17/2008 10:04:53 PM)

quote:

I noticed that you often mention that you and your husband "invite people to church" and that your church is "all about" inviting the lost. May I suggest that, while this might still be the normal form of reaching the lost in the Bible Belt, it really isn't all effective in other parts of the country/world. You need to prepare your son to reach a lost world in which it is no longer out of the ordinary or scandalous to just not go to church on Sunday. And this, by definition, requires that we be willing to meet people where they are and "do life" with them.


You're so right--and once again, I left out details in order to keep my posts brief. With my example of the wiccan who has gone to church with us several times, we also have him out on our boat with us; we socialize with him in lots of ways--not just church. But yes that is a great point!



VisitorinWaiting -> RE: how to be friends with atheists (5/17/2008 10:41:17 PM)

This is my last post in this thread...I can see that no one believes along the same lines as I, and that is fine. I just cannot see how associating with an atheist or a wiccan or any other person that denies God in everyday life, even if they are not outspoken about it, can be good for a child...and especially for a child that is not yet saved and grounded in his faith. The Bible tells us that what would it profit us if we gain the whole world yet lose our own soul. My children may be able to lead many to Christ without being grounded in the faith themselves (which they are, even at a young age), but why would we let them be with people that do not share the same love in their hearts that we do on a regular basis? It's great to invite the lost to church, to communicate with them so that you can have that outreach, but bringing them in on your children who you are trying to train up in the faith...



luvmysavior -> RE: how to be friends with atheists (5/17/2008 11:20:33 PM)

quote:

This is my last post in this thread...I can see that no one believes along the same lines as I, and that is fine. I just cannot see how associating with an atheist or a wiccan or any other person that denies God in everyday life, even if they are not outspoken about it, can be good for a child...and especially for a child that is not yet saved and grounded in his faith. The Bible tells us that what would it profit us if we gain the whole world yet lose our own soul. My children may be able to lead many to Christ without being grounded in the faith themselves (which they are, even at a young age), but why would we let them be with people that do not share the same love in their hearts that we do on a regular basis? It's great to invite the lost to church, to communicate with them so that you can have that outreach, but bringing them in on your children who you are trying to train up in the faith...


Visitorinwaiting, what you just said is basically where I have been coming from. To carry the example further, what about people who homeschool? Are they sheltering their children too much, since their children could be out in the public schools and coming into contact with non-Christians? My son is in public school, but from my understanding, many parents homeschool primarily in order to avoid the negative influences of public schools. I don't know...I'm not trying to get off track, but what is the difference between sheltering a child from one friend, versus a whole school?



sen10tious -> RE: how to be friends with atheists (5/18/2008 7:40:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luvmysavior

My son is in public school, but from my understanding, many parents homeschool primarily in order to avoid the negative influences of public schools. I don't know...I'm not trying to get off track, but what is the difference between sheltering a child from one friend, versus a whole school?


Well, since you are the OP who is asking, I guess this won’t be off-topic—

Anyone who homeschools long-term knows that home education is far, far more about preparing and releasing than about sheltering. It is about having some control over the timing. And you are absolutely right on this one point: you are the mom and in a better position to know when and how to let your son deal with this particular situation. You also know the girl; and that is another important bit of information we don’t have.

Since you and your husband have a 'check in your spirit' about this; I agree you should limit your son’s contact with the girl temporarily, but you should also actively be preparing him to face such situations.

From what you have told us, your son seems very 'ripe' for harvest. Why not look at it this way: God is likely using an atheist girl to get your son to consider his own state and need for salvation. Don’t get too hung up on his young age. Spiritual understanding does not run on an earthly temporal timeline.



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