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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/7/2008 2:03:47 PM
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jbbaab44
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We ask for the Spirit of God to rise up a Pastor. We ask the Spirit of God to rise up a ministry or a program. We ask for the Spirit of God to rise up leaders. We ask the Spirit of God to equip Sunday school teachers. We ask the Spirit of God to call more missionaries. We ask the Spirit of God to lead us in our journey. We ask the Spirit of God to train our children. We ask the Spirit of God to start a new Church. We ask the Spirit of God to help us in our devotions and prayer. We ask the Spirit of God to help us with our words. We ask the Spirit of God to lead us when we witness We ask the Spirit of God to guide everything, except our pocket books. We'll just play that safe and leave that up to tithing.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/7/2008 2:17:47 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
...We'll just play that safe and leave that up to tithing.
Forget about a tithe. I've known dozens of pastors during my lifetime, most, if not all, would be delirious if members would just give 5% toward the church's ministries and financial needs. Delirious. A mere 4% would probably make 'em dizzy.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/7/2008 2:24:52 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
...We'll just play that safe and leave that up to tithing.
Forget about a tithe. I've known dozens of pastors during my lifetime, most, if not all, would be delirious if members would just give 5% toward the church's ministries and financial needs. Delirious. A mere 4% would probably make 'em dizzy.
Forget about the short comings of money, wouldn't God be delirious if missionaries, teachers, children, leaders, churches, and individuals would rise up to the calling the Spirit has called them to?
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/7/2008 2:32:31 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
...We'll just play that safe and leave that up to tithing.
Forget about a tithe. I've known dozens of pastors during my lifetime, most, if not all, would be delirious if members would just give 5% toward the church's ministries and financial needs. Delirious. A mere 4% would probably make 'em dizzy.
Forget about the short comings of money, wouldn't God be delirious if missionaries, teachers, children, leaders, churches, and individuals would rise up to the calling the Spirit has called them to?
Maybe there's a shortage of those in your denomination and church, I dunno. I can't speak to that or how you can fix that. Fact is, I cannot speak about anyone's calling but my own. But since the topic is money... well... I simply made an observation about that.
But if you are saying the lack of giving is a sign of people's hearts not being where they should be, then I tend to agree. I think a believer's checkbook probably could tell you more about their relationship with the Lord than any other indicator.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/7/2008 2:48:02 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 1039
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P31W,
To respond to the following:
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
The early church had a similar discussion about such things in Acts Chapter 15. there it was settled on what should be done regarding the intersection of the NT and the OT. If we apertain to do more, we fall into sin.
The problem the early Chruch was dealing with was "salvation". Did one "have to obey the law of Moses inorde to be saved". The answer to that question is a resounding NO we are saved by faith and not by works.
Let me pull up the passage.
1 Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." 2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.
(the question is are we saved by faith or by works)
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." 12
19 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
See this last bold part. Do you believe that you and I as gentiles are to obey the part about mean of strangled animals and blood or meat that was offered to idols? I bet you don't. I don't either. What I see are people who can distinguish between essential doctrines and non essential doctrines and coming to a compromise. Being of "one mind and heart".
In the passage Act 15:1 where the men from Judea came down teaching circumcision, notice what they said, "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." This is in essence the Judaic belief. They were seeking to create prostylites, which at this point, after the coming of the Messiah are now a non-existent entity. Please understand that the concept of being saved by faith or works is the intergal component that separated the OT believer from the NT believer. It separates what we do and how we live. Let's look at what Peter said:
"He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith." --Acts 15:9
Please note, the very act of purification of the heart occurred by faith and His acceptance of the gentiles is illustrated in His giving of the Holy Spirit to them. Therefore the works of the law have become dead to these men--circumcision and tithing, which are all under the law. Remember, it was the law that assurred salvation for the Hebrews. You cannot separate circumcision from tithing as it regards to salvation according to the law. In OT times, a Hebrew that did not tithe had as much an issue with salvation as a man that was not circumcised. You could easily argue that circumcision was a principle that should be followed--or any number of fleshly cleanings, blood sacrifices, etc. The Apostle wanted to settle this argument once and for all and they did in this very critical chapter.
The OT is full of examples and prophecies of the coming of the Messiah and His new governement. Pleaese note here:
Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth. 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. --Hosea 6:5-7
God is saying He did not want these things.
The Old Testament was a shadow of the things to come. God used it as a tutor to show men their error. For without the law we would not have known evil. Paul summarily describes this in one of his letters. In Hosea, God is actually saying, "I want mercy, not sacrifice--and the knowledge of God moe than burnt offerings." God is showing us His heart here. It's not these things that they bring Him that matters, its their heart--which as He goes on to say in 6:7 that they have transgressed the covenant and deal treacherously gainst him. How can a man who brings God all of the sacrifice and offerings within his duty transgress a covenant and deal treacherously with God? Why would God NOT want your gift when you came to the alter according to the law of Moses? Unless, God is talking about the man's HEART. It was Israel that transgressed His covenant in wickedness of heart.
Regarding the commandment he gave; that was not given ONLY to gentiles, this was it for everyone. And I do not knowingly do any of those things--and should I stumble, there is repentance in the New Covenant. Praise God!
Please look at the way it is explained in Hebrews 10:1-2
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year * * continually * * make the comers thereunto perfect.
10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Amazing, the law had a shadow of good things to come! That being the Word of God written on our heart, that through love, righteousness, and holiness we would attain things so much GREATER than the law. The writer of Hebrews says, that the law that it could NEVER make the offerers perfect! But there was something that was going to make the offerers perfect--And that was Christ who would be that once and final sacrifice & offering of His body. Here again is Hebrews 10:9-14 (I encourage you anyone to read this chapter):
Above when he said *, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
10:9
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10:10
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
10:11
And * * every priest standeth daily * * ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
10:12
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
10:13
From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool *.
10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Do you notice that it says, "He taketh away the first, that He may establish the second" ? The second what? Covenent. And again he says every priest stands daily ministering and offering the same sacrifices which can never really take away sin. And then, that which is perhaps the most pivotal moment, the writer says, "For by ONE offering He hath PERFECTED (finished) for ever them that are sanctified." Tithes and offering are part of a law that sought to sanctify a man by works--and even it could not. NOW this new covenant has come that sanctifies a man by faith and belief in Him. By believing in Him, having faith in Him, He creates in us a heart that goes ABOVE and BEYOND the law. It is by His SPIRIT ALONE that we give and are prompted.
And the rest of Hebrews 10 is glorious!
quote:
Were they in sin by asking the gentiles to obey these laws of Moses? You said in the quote above "If we apertain to do more, we fall into sin."
Well, let's see what Peter said . . .
10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." --Acts 15:10-11.
Wow, Peter actually charged them with "testing God." This is a sin. These men could only understand that what they were doing was a sin by what was written in "The Law," we can understand it is a sin by what is written in our hearts which is HIGHER than the law. We can understand that in great sacrifice and bloodshed, Jesus Christ the Lord Almighty, gave His life and died that we might be free and heirs of the promise and new covenant--we can see with the Spirit that He gave us, that this would be trampling Christ's work underfoot and attempting to make it by our own works. God forbid! But those who do not have such written in their heart NEED the law to show them what is right and wrong. WE DO NOT NEED THAT, as OUR HIGHER LAW IS HOLINESS AND PURITY which we obtain by faith and belief in Him who gives us the Spirit.
quote:
Do you have scripture that shows us using the OT laws inorder to know God's principles for holy living is wrong? If your answer is "yes" can you explain why Paul used the OT scripture inorder to teach us the principle of paying our teachers? If your answer is not then there is nothing to debate.
Remember, the Law is a shadow of the things in the NT. A shadow. Paul goes on to say in 1 corinthians 9 that he does none of those things that his testimony is true. Do you see how the Spirit led Paul to something HIGHER? In fact, giving a tenth is a pittance compared to what the church gave in those early days of Acts. That is because these men and women were acting on the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that urged them on to a HIGHER height. And not just financial giving; but the giving of their lives.
quote:
By that I mean there are simply some of us who see a spiritural principle and have the Holy Spirit confirming what we see in Scripture (check the spirit). Therefore we must obey God and teach what we find to be true in both our conscious with the Holy Spirit and in Scripture God's Holy Word that we make as a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path so that we might not sin against God.
By teaching a man about a "set amount" he must give, it creates a law. God is over that now concept now. It was only a tutor and only a shadow. It is time for us to catch up to where God is now. There is a law of freedom and a law of love at work now that supercedes the carnal 10% law. It's a higher standard. God wants people to be challenged by the Holy Spirit to give, not the law. What do you think Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 9? GO HIGHER! Seek to be in line with the Spirit. If the carnal law says thus, we need to search our hearts to find out God's standard in this matter.
quote:
There are 2 ways people/Paul viewed the law in NT times.
1. The law must be kept inorder to be saved. This we all agree is wrong and Paul spent a great deal of his time trying to destroy this false doctrine.
2. They law shows us our sin. Takes us to the Cross and is a guide for our life in how we are to live. The spirits we hear are to be checked by God's written word. (all of it...in fact when the "test the spirit" verse was written the ONLY test most people had was the OT.
All wonderful points, P31W, but they do not negate the imparative of the Spirit's function in our life. We do not say well, the OT says sacrifice a lamb w/o spot, so I'll sacrifice a cat w/o spot. The NT is teaching us spiritual things. The sacrifices in OT times were bulls and goats--the sacrifices today are spiritual. The requirements in OT times were physical--the requirements in NT times are spiritual! And they are prompted by the Spirit as well! Not the duties and requirements of man.
quote:
Paul like David in the OT times loved the law and could see the spiritural principles contained in them. David understood the principles of Gods laws. It was the Pharasees who missed the spiritural aspects of the law and were hung up on the "letter of the law".
Beautifully put. The NT isn't about the letter of the law (10% or even tithing); its about something SPIRITUAL. It's not the bulls and goats God wanted, He wanted the motive of the the heart behind the giving.
quote:
Paul never said anything negative about the laws themselves. (they are God's perfect standards how could he say anything but good about God's standard)...rather he spoke negative about people who were teaching that obeying the law was required inorder to be saved.
Good words again, P31W, but that does not change the fact that tithing, like sacrifices and offerings are officially under the OT.
God wanted us to act out of a pure heart. He's appealling to things higher than the law--mercy and the knowledge of God. If my heart is full of mercy and the knowledge of God fills my thoughts, I will act in ways GREATER than the law. Not just with financial gifts, but gifts of time, sacrifice of self and the more weighty gifts that are never seen by the eyes of man but are dear in the sight of God. If we have these things, if we immerse ourselves in them, if we are attentative to the Spirit, we will act from a pure heart.
Also in your second Post you wrote:
quote:
I've got one more question for you. Considering that I believe you are of the mindset that unless the NT specifically teaches something we today cannot teach it....do you also belief the "rest" of that line of reasoning. The OT has many lessons in it--it is a shadow of what we have now. It was our tutor when we were in sin. But we have One who perfected the law of Moses in Himself. And now we have HIM.
His Holy Spirit dwells richly in us, teaching us and prompting us how to live.
quote:
If the NT teaches it we are to both teach and obey it without taking into consideration what the OT teaches and trying to understand the command in that light? You can read them in tandem if you like. The Holy Spirit teaches us how to apply God's higher standard of holiness to life--which supercedes the law of Moses. Hense we act not out of duty or legality (without requirements), but out of a sincere desire to do so.
Also when you say there is no biblical basis for NT tithing would you say that there is biblical basis for worshippers of God tithing in pre law, during the law and after the law?
Pre law, Adam and Eve did not tithe. But then, that is prelaw. Each covenant was valid and good in the eyes of God and did not detract away from any of the Words which He spoke. God was ultimately working to get back in Spiritual fellowship with man. He also gave a covenant at the advent of Jesus Christ. All of these developments flow seemlessly with God's plan to get mankind back on track. To resume fellowship with His Spirit and that no flesh should perish. But we as finite men follow whatever He gives us as little children. In Moses times, there was the law--it was right to follow it. In our time we have the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ--it is right to follow it. The New Testament wrapped everything up, from Genesis to present in one great big sacrifice to reconcile mankind--not only Hebrews, back to God. As Moses was not Hebrew; Cain and Able were not Hebrew, Adam and Eve were not Hebrew, yet God in His great loving mercy, set to bring us back to Himself. Thank God! Jesus Christ became both the Priest and the sacrifice. He reconciled us back to Himself. He lives in us. It is done. It is finished.
God Bless you
< Message edited by Dakotasunbeam -- 2/7/2008 2:54:33 PM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/7/2008 3:18:45 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6501
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
Please note, the very act of purification of the heart occurred by faith and His acceptance of the gentiles is illustrated in His giving of the Holy Spirit to them. Therefore the works of the law have become dead to these men--circumcision and tithing, which are all under the law. Remember, it was the law that assurred salvation for the Hebrews. You cannot separate circumcision from tithing as it regards to salvation according to the law. In OT times, a Hebrew that did not tithe had as much an issue with salvation as a man that was not circumcised. You could easily argue that circumcision was a principle that should be followed--or any number of fleshly cleanings, blood sacrifices, etc. The Apostle wanted to settle this argument once and for all and they did in this very critical chapter.
You seem not to understand salvation and law. In the OT, nobody was saved by keeping the law. Why, the most exact keepers of the Law were condemned severely and often by Jesus.
The Law was unable to save.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/7/2008 3:44:37 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 1039
Joined: 6/2/2005
From: Midwest USA
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quote:
You seem not to understand salvation and law. In the OT, nobody was saved by keeping the law. Why, the most exact keepers of the Law were condemned severely and often by Jesus.
The Law was unable to save. I take it you did not read my whole post as you would not have made the above statement.
Thanks!
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/7/2008 3:49:34 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6501
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
quote:
You seem not to understand salvation and law. In the OT, nobody was saved by keeping the law. Why, the most exact keepers of the Law were condemned severely and often by Jesus.
The Law was unable to save. I take it you did not read my whole post as you would not have made the above statement.
Thanks!
Sorry, something that takes more than a couple of screens to explain seems a bit too much for me. In any case, my eyes glaze over when I encounter a novella.
I apologize, I'm just geared that way and it doesn't have anything at all to do with your logic or skills.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/8/2008 8:51:06 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Remember, it was the law that assurred salvation for the Hebrews.
This is completely false therefore the rest of your teachings on that post are based on a false foundation.
Gal. 3: 6 Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 7 Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8 The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9 So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
Hebrews 11 has a nickname. It's call the Hall of Faith chapter. We learn from this passage as well as from many other both old and new testament passages that it has "always been" about faith. Faith in either the coming Messiah or faith in the Messiah that has come.
1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 By faith Abraham, even though he was past age--and Sarah herself was barren--was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 19 Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.
20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
22 By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones.
23 By faith Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king's edict.
24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. 25 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. 26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.
29 By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.
31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.
32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again.
Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37 They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated-- 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. 3
9 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
\\
BTW I don't believe we have any protithers in this debate who are pro keeping the OT laws. For me the Genesis tithing passage in connection to Hebrews and in light of who our High Priest and King is tells me that the act of tithing is somthing God desires. The fact that God also included it in the OT laws is simply a side note in my book.
< Message edited by P31W -- 2/8/2008 9:17:39 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/8/2008 9:38:52 AM
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jbbaab44
Posts: 553
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
BTW I don't believe we have any protithers in this debate who are pro keeping the OT laws. For me the Genesis tithing passage in connection to Hebrews and in light of who our High Priest and King is tells me that the act of tithing is somthing God desires. The fact that God also included it in the OT laws is simply a side note in my book.
Repetition of tithing does not make it something God desires for us. Also in regards to our high priest and king, he is also the lamb of God and i don't see anyone casually sacrificing lambs. In light of the fact that sacrifices are mentioned before tithing in Genesis and After Tithing in Hebrews. Regardless of what book tithing was mentioned, it was always in the context of the old covenant.
< Message edited by jbbaab44 -- 2/8/2008 9:50:12 AM >
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/8/2008 9:58:07 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Regardless of what book tithing was mentioned, it was always in the context of the old covenant.
Abraham gave a tithe first in chapter 14 then in chapter 15 God made the covenant with him.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/8/2008 10:06:31 AM
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jbbaab44
Posts: 553
Joined: 2/6/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
Regardless of what book tithing was mentioned, it was always in the context of the old covenant.
Abraham gave a tithe first in chapter 14 then in chapter 15 God made the covenant with him.
The advent of the old covenant came in Genesis 3 . . . long before Abraham.
You can see that animal sacrifices already had been incorporated with cain and abel. we can see that clean and unclean animals had been incorporated though the story of Noah. Who is to say, what laws were and were not first mentioned to Israel or Abraham? Well i can tell you that if tithing was desired of God already, then Jacob sure made a mistake and God went along with it, when he offered his tithe as a token for safe passage.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/8/2008 2:09:36 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 1039
Joined: 6/2/2005
From: Midwest USA
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LOL. It helps to read the entire post before answering!
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
quote:
You seem not to understand salvation and law. In the OT, nobody was saved by keeping the law. Why, the most exact keepers of the Law were condemned severely and often by Jesus.
The Law was unable to save. I take it you did not read my whole post as you would not have made the above statement.
Thanks!
Sorry, something that takes more than a couple of screens to explain seems a bit too much for me. In any case, my eyes glaze over when I encounter a novella.
I apologize, I'm just geared that way and it doesn't have anything at all to do with your logic or skills.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/8/2008 2:22:20 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 1039
Joined: 6/2/2005
From: Midwest USA
Status: offline
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P31W,
This is entirely false! What a fallacy for you to say! Each covenant was given for salvation. The OT was for the the Hebrews and prosthelytes only, and because it was God's intent from the very beginning to reconcile ALL men to Himself, it was only a shadow and a tutor! The NT reconsiled us all. The writer of Hebrews ties everything together from genesis to the NT to show how God's intent was to bring man to this new point and reconcile them to Himself. The OT and the NT have been settled! Woe to us that we should go back and find some sundry law under the old testament like "tithing" and yoke believers of the new covenant! The issue with the NT and the OT was settled in Acts 15. We have MORE than enough proofs in the OT and the NT that a new testament was coming and would abolish the old and set up something NEW.
Just look at the scriptures you posted! You negate your own point!
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ORIGINAL: P31W
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Remember, it was the law that assurred salvation for the Hebrews.
This is completely false therefore the rest of your teachings on that post are based on a false foundation.
Gal. 3: 6 Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 7 Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8 The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9 So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
Hebrews 11 has a nickname. It's call the Hall of Faith chapter. We learn from this passage as well as from many other both old and new testament passages that it has "always been" about faith. Faith in either the coming Messiah or faith in the Messiah that has come.
1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 By faith Abraham, even though he was past age--and Sarah herself was barren--was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 19 Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.
20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
22 By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones.
23 By faith Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king's edict.
24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. 25 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. 26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.
29 By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.
31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.
32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again.
Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37 They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated-- 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. 3
9 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
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BTW I don't believe we have any protithers in this debate who are pro keeping the OT laws. For me the Genesis tithing passage in connection to Hebrews and in light of who our High Priest and King is tells me that the act of tithing is somthing God desires. The fact that God also included it in the OT laws is simply a side note in my book.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/8/2008 2:46:19 PM
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peace77
Posts: 789
Joined: 4/18/2005
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quote:
This is entirely false! What a fallacy for you to say!
What is false?
Anne
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/8/2008 3:15:47 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 661
Joined: 10/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
BTW I don't believe we have any protithers in this debate who are pro keeping the OT laws. For me the Genesis tithing passage in connection to Hebrews and in light of who our High Priest and King is tells me that the act of tithing is somthing God desires. The fact that God also included it in the OT laws is simply a side note in my book. P31W, I keep posting on this topic in an effort to both learn and resolve the conflict that exist between pro tithers and non tithers for myself.
When I read your post,I actually learn a great deal about the mindset and reason for the position that you hold concerning tithing.That is indeed a credit to your ability to articulate your position with scripture.What I keep having a problem with if you will with your post,is it seems you keep kicking over the proverbial pale of milk.
That is to say you do a great job of explaining our position as it relates to the law,you also give evidence as to why one is within their rights to draw from ot scriptures to form doctrine,although imo this is a slippery slope.
Yet it seems you fall back into the legalistic snare when you finish with statements like God desires for us to tithe based on the Genesis to Hebrews account.Also you tie in the tithe that was instituted in the law to the tithe of Abraham.While I know judging by the quality of your post that you are aware that they were not one and the same.
These appear to me to be huge theological stretches,which seem unnecessary for you to take,considering you are not a proponent of following tithing as a mandate.
I guess what I am saying is that I would be able to follow and appreciate the whole of what you offer in your post so much more,if you would keep from contradicting your yourself.
If you're not as you describe a pro law keeper,why say God desires that we tithe,and then tie this tithe back into the law as you have done here.This in effect makes it a law.
I know as for myself I am totally interested in doing what God desires.If I believed for one minute or one second that God desires for me to tithe,than I would be on the opposite end of the argument here.
I believe that God wants me to be a giver,and that he wants me to give liberally,and cheerfully with a free and loving heart.I don't believe that God is at all interested in breaking out the calculator and checking to see if I gave a tenth of my increase.
I don't believe that you or anyone here can find a nt example that the Apostles share in your conclusion that God desires for us to tithe.If they did there would have been no need for special offerings,or admonishment concerning the workmen being worthy of his hire.
It seems to me that there would have been enough income available from there practice of tithing to carry out the work of the ministry,and surely it seems there would have been at least an extra biblical source revealing their practice of tithing.
I am not aware of any sources that point to the early church tithing,and it is for me at least a foregone conclusion that no such example exist by way of direct scriptural witness.
I know there are those who say that tithing was such a part of the nt practice that there was no need to mention it specifically,again a huge theological strechhhhhhhh.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/8/2008 4:03:54 PM
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jbbaab44
Posts: 553
Joined: 2/6/2006
Status: offline
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Graeme Carle says it best in his article “A New Look at Tithing”,
"What’s usually the problem at this point is that we as Christians are often looking for one rule that we all have to live by. One rule, such as giving a tenth, keeps things simple; it can be easily learned by asking someone in the church what the will of God is and then we don’t have to look any further to know how we should be living. In other words, we don’t need to have a personal relationship with God.”
I had read the book by Larry Burkett, called "Giving and Tithing". Although i admired his call to stewardship and finances, and respected those views, i do not admire his thoughts on tithing. After reading his book, i narrowed down to what i think the best argument that he can come up with about tithing, and it says this, "Although the tithe is mentioned in the law, no punishment was indicated for not tithing. There is a consequence (the loss of blessings), but there is no punishment from God for not tithing."
Sunofone,
Larry Burkett's statement above is how i know what you mean by sssstretchhhhing it. They apply so much effort to take tithing out of the grasp of the law, but it cannot be done. When they try to, they come up with vague statements like, "God commands it . . . but there's no punishment for disobeying". You end up walking away scratching your head with no rebuttal because the contradicting statements just boggles your brain. The only way to incorporate tithing, is marry it into the family line of principles that were carried across from the old covenant. How can one even conceive the thought that calculated giving is a principle?
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/9/2008 8:19:55 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2441
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
I am not aware of any sources that point to the early church tithing
Read the book of Acts. There you will find that Jewish converts became zealous for the law. That means they were believers and tithers. James the half brother of Jesus was both a tither and the head of the Jeresulam Chruch.
Let me find for you something else.
Proverbs 3
9 Honor the Lord with | | | |
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