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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/14/2008 11:03:13 AM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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quote:
sorry to burst your egotistic bubble
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/14/2008 11:07:43 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Um, sorry to burst your egotistic bubble, but your perception is off if you think your question was intelligent.
Then answer the question. Do we teach the first fruits principle or not?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/14/2008 11:15:28 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Then answer the question. Do we teach the first fruits principle or not?
i teach this: We are stewards of the best, the first, and 100% of what God has trusted us with. This means that we should be ready to give in that way.
< Message edited by jbbaab44 -- 3/14/2008 11:21:51 AM >
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/14/2008 11:51:15 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
and tithing- not a picture of Christ
Melchizedek represents Christ (king of peace, priest of the Most High God) and tithing represents honoring Christ for His provision.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/14/2008 12:04:13 PM
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jbbaab44
Posts: 479
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
and tithing- not a picture of Christ
Melchizedek represents Christ (king of peace, priest of the Most High God) and tithing represents honoring Christ for His provision.
Sure, giving to God tells him that we honor him for providing for us, but tithing(10%), is not a prototype(picture) of Jesus Christ. Although, i do believe Melchizedek's priesthood does represent Jesus Christ's priesthood.
The two things that come to mind as far as symbolic practice in the church today are baptism, and the Lords Table. I don't see why tithing should be incorporated as a symbolic practice. There's nothing wrong with giving 10%. It's an excellent, individual earmark.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/14/2008 8:58:33 PM
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TTABTG
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From: Minnesota
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
You speak of "precepts" in the Bible rather than direct mandates. The Apostles gave direct mandates for governing the Churches, daily lives of Christians, relations with the world, and relation to the Old Covenant law, and what is means to be an adopted Son rather than a tutored heir. I'll take those over ambiguous "precepts' any day.
Thanks.
Alec
Alec are you saying the Children of Isreal were "tortured" heirs because God commanded them to give a couple of tithes per year?
Please note, I said "tutored" not "tortured".
Gal 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor [to bring us] to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
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Hab 2:4 - "Behold the proud, His soul is not upright in him; But the just shall live by his faith."
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/15/2008 12:22:04 AM
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TTABTG
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
BTW,
Those of you who don't believe in the tithe principle do you also NOT believe in the first fruits principle either? After all it's never mentioned in the NT...nor giving back to God from the first of what he has blessed you with and not the "last and/or leftovers".
Do you recommend that I stop teaching giving back to God your first and best?
1Cr 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Of course, give God your best and first in all things. But realize that the law was a type and shadow, the reality is in Christ. As the above verses indicate, the firstfuits is taught in the NT.
Jesus is:
the firstfruits, the scape goat, the offered firstborn child, the tabernacle, the veil which must be passed (the way) to reach the Father, the bronze laver of judgement, the ram in the thicket (the Lord shall provide Himself a sacrafice), the High Priest who stands between us and God to make intercession. He is the giver of the promise to Abram and the fulfillment of that promise; He is the giver of the law to Moses and the fullfillment of that law; He is the pillar of fire by night and the cloud by day, he is the Rock that followed the children of Israel, He baptized them in the cloud and in the sea as He baptizes (washes) us in the water, the blood and the word.
Jesus is trully Lord, Master, King, Priest, Advocate, Creator, Word, All Consuming Fire. He gets the whole of us, because He bought us with His blood. He owned us anyway as Creator God, but He graciously provided salvation for us, giving us faith to believe unto salvation. We owe Him everything we are and have. Each one of us a member of His body, taking direction from the head. So give as you purpose in your heart.
As the story of Ananias and Sapphira indicates, it is dangerous to lie to the Holy Ghost. Peter's words are appropo here:
Act 5:1 ¶ But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
Act 5:2 And kept back [part] of the price, his wife also being privy [to it], and brought a certain part, and laid [it] at the apostles' feet.
Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?
Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Act 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
I am not accusing anyone here of being like these two. The point is, that according to Peter, they were under no obligation to give any of that money. The issue was that their hearts were not right when they gave it. They were not "cheerful" givers, but were grudging the money to the Apostles. They did not have a willing mind, but felt compelled to be like everyone else, to feed their pride, all the while holding back and lying about it.
God forbid that any true believer be that way. "Freely you have received, freely give" is the Christian principle in all things.
God Bless.
Alec
_____________________________
Hab 2:4 - "Behold the proud, His soul is not upright in him; But the just shall live by his faith."
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/15/2008 11:45:39 PM
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Greg254
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I haven't read all the replies to this but my answers to the original questions are...
Purpose of tithing:
to give back to His kingdom a portion of what he gave us
to show we can obey his commands
to pay the bills of the church and help support programs, missions, etc
What constitutes a tithe:
something we choose to give to the kingdom of God that could be used elswhere. Kind of vague but I think the whole point of tithing is sacrificing what we hold dear for His sake. I think the actual tithe will change during different episodes of life. Right now my wife and I don't have much time to give to the church since we have a 20 month old but we can give money. Hopefully we can still give money thruout our life but as we get older I know we'll spend more of our time volunteering. But right now God needs us to be there for our little girl. Now...if only I could find a way to tithe a dirty diaper....
Should I give if I can't afford it?
We can all afford it. The next time you want to buy a candy bar, save the 50 cents and put it in the plate. God doesn't care about the amount...remember the old lady who gave a "penny". God cares about our heart.
Tithe...monetary?
It better not be.....otherwise about a million things wouldn't get done in and around the church!!
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 8:05:53 AM
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P31W
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quote:
They were not "cheerful" givers, but were grudging the money to the Apostles. They did not have a willing mind, but felt compelled to be like everyone else, to feed their pride, all the while holding back and lying about it.
So if I purpose in my heart to give to God after my needs are paid for, contributed into my retirement accounts, my short and middle term savings accounts, paid uncle sam, the newspaper subscription, the cheerleader outfit for my daughter, soccar camp for both kids and of course the dog needs to visit the vet for their yearly teeth cleaning and check up then - after I pay the guy for my bottled water (my water does not taste good but it is OK for human consumption) and I buy the cat her special diet cat food - what I have left over I can give with a cheerful heart and say to myself God loves me because I am a cheerful giver?
quote:
Of course, give God your best and first in all things.
Find for me a NC mandate that says what I am doing is wrong. I am cheerful, not giving out of compulsion and I am giving as I have purposed in my heart - my leftovers! I need a "mandate" to do anymore or for you to teach me that I should do more.
< Message edited by P31W -- 3/17/2008 8:51:25 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 8:55:00 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
We are stewards of the best, the first
So you do teach the firstfruits principle or do you have a NC mandate?
God's principles have never changed from Adam all the way up through now. God has always expected 100% stewardship from every single one of his children. As far as a NC mandate that gives instructions on what, how, when, where we should give, that comes from the Holy Spirit.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 9:00:58 AM
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P31W
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quote:
As far as a NC mandate that gives instructions on what, how, when, where we should give, that comes from the Holy Spirit.
How do you test the spirit you hear to know if it's holy or unholy?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 9:04:11 AM
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sunofone
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How you guys doing this morning? Fine I'm sure.I enjoy hearing what everyone has to say on this topic,but feel there really is nothing new to be gained here.
What are we hashing out that hasn't already been covered?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 9:17:26 AM
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P31W
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quote:
What are we hashing out that hasn't already been covered?
I am applying what I have learned from you guys. What you folks teach.
Give me a NT mandate for me to follow - you have....cheerful and what I purpose to give.
Applying what I have learned from this thread this is what I am going to purpose in my "heart" to give with GREAT CHEER!!!! It's called 100% stewardship. It's what I hear the spirit telling me to do.
So if I purpose in my heart to give to God after my needs are paid for, contributed into my retirement accounts, my short and middle term savings accounts, paid uncle sam, the newspaper subscription, the cheerleader outfit for my daughter, soccar camp for both kids and of course the dog needs to visit the vet for their yearly teeth cleaning and check up then - after I pay the guy for my bottled water (my water does not taste good but it is OK for human consumption) and I buy the cat her special diet cat food - what I have left over I can give with a cheerful heart and say to myself God loves me because I am a cheerful giver?
< Message edited by P31W -- 3/17/2008 9:24:56 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 9:20:16 AM
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jbbaab44
Posts: 479
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
As far as a NC mandate that gives instructions on what, how, when, where we should give, that comes from the Holy Spirit.
How do you test the spirit you hear to know if it's holy or unholy?
I know if its holy the same way you know if its holy on your offerings above the tithe. Not unless you think that it doesn't matter where you give your offerings.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 9:21:58 AM
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P31W
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How do "I" know when the spirit I am hearing is holy? Come on now. Surely you know how to "test" that spirit you hear and obey?
I am sure you test the spirit after all it's a NT mandate!!!
"do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God"
Now tell me how you accomplish this.
< Message edited by P31W -- 3/17/2008 9:29:11 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 9:30:57 AM
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jbbaab44
Posts: 479
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
How do "I" know when the spirit I am hearing is holy? Come on now. Surely you know how to "test" that spirit you hear and obey?
I am sure you test the spirit after all it's a NT mandate!!!
"do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God"
Now tell me how you accomplish this.
First, my giving should be in line with biblical principles, such as faithfulness, honesty, sacrificial -just to name a few. (of course we disagree that tithing is a principle) Second, i pray, and keep in communication with God in order to be in his will. Third, I could seek the counsel of others.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 9:39:58 AM
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P31W
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Ok so you don't require "NC mandates" to teach what you choose to teach.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 9:41:31 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Ok so you don't require "NC mandates" to teach what you choose to teach.
I don't understand what you asked here.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 9:52:34 AM
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P31W
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Most people on this thread and I believe "YOU" as well have asked me for a NT mandate to tithe. But when I ask you to show me what you teach it appears to me that you do what I do and teach not necessarily NT mandates rather you said,
"First, my giving should be in line with biblical principles"
thus my reply to you was, "Ok so you don't require "NC mandates" to teach what you choose to teach."
< Message edited by P31W -- 3/17/2008 10:01:26 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 10:31:17 AM
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jbbaab44
Posts: 479
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Most people on this thread and I believe "YOU" as well, have asked me for a NT mandate to tithe. But when I ask you to show me what you teach, it appears to me that you do what I do and teach not necessarily NT mandates rather you said,
"First, my giving should be in line with biblical principles"
thus my reply to you was, "Ok so you don't require "NC mandates" to teach what you choose to teach."
Where do you receive the mandate on how much your offerings should be above the tithe?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 11:50:18 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Where do you receive the mandate on how much your offerings should be above the tithe?
Remember it's your side of the debate folks who demand a "mandate" not mine.
< Message edited by P31W -- 3/17/2008 12:06:43 PM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 12:11:26 PM
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jbbaab44
Posts: 479
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
Where do you receive the mandate on how much your offerings should be above the tithe?
Remember it's your side of the debate folks who demand a "mandate" not mine.
It's your side that must provide a NC mandate that says I am to give to God from my first and best, sacrifically and whatever else it is that your side teaches that "of course" we should do.
I want to see if "your folks" really do believe that only NC teachings are all they allow their teachers/preachers/and themselves to teach. Or is it only applied when it hits their pocketbooks in a direct way.
We put tithing under the law just like we put circumcision, so please don't blast me with silly overreactions that imply we only believe the NC teachings.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 12:15:26 PM
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P31W
Posts: 1928
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]quote:
We put tithing under the law just like we put circumcision and might I add firstfruits? Giving God your first and best. 
Until you can give me a NC mandate to give God my first and best then I will have to believe that I can give him whatever I feel "cheerful" about even if I have him listed below my dog's teeth cleaning visit.
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