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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/29/2008 12:36:14 PM
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jbbaab44
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Of course Jesus was also confirming that food was still the only item you could tithe on, but i guess most people like to sweep that snippet under the rug as well.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 4/2/2008 4:35:21 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
Of course Jesus was also confirming that food was still the only item you could tithe on, but i guess most people like to sweep that snippet under the rug as well.
I keep running into that legalist mindset where people have to have everything drawn out in precise detail. That was the problem of the folks Jesus was talking to there. It's the sort of thing I used to deal with when my kids were little, they were unable to connect also putting their toys up when I told them to pick up their clothes.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 4/2/2008 4:42:40 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I keep running into that legalist mindset where people have to have everything drawn out in precise detail. That was the problem of the folks Jesus was talking to there.
I'm glad my giving doesn't have to be precisely calculated down to a certain percentage, otherwise i would be in danger of being legalist. 
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 4/2/2008 5:05:20 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Or just in certain kinds of produce and given at a specific location in the Middle East for specific occasions.
I understand what you are saying, but you are saying it because you think i need a command directly spelled out under the NC in order for me to obey the tithe. As i've said before, the absence of the tithing directive under the NC has almost nothing to do with why i do not believe in tithing.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 4/3/2008 4:25:29 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
I understand what you are saying, but you are saying it because you think i need a command directly spelled out under the NC in order for me to obey the tithe. As i've said before, the absence of the tithing directive under the NC has almost nothing to do with why i do not believe in tithing.
No, I was saying that because you seemed to discount tithing simply because Jesus only mentioned produce when He told them they were right to have tithed.
I've encountered those who think that if tithing had any place in the Christian life that money is exempt and some suggest only spoils of war should be tithed. The logic in both positions, IMHO, is juvenile rationalization.
FWIW, I haven't tithed on my gross income in a lot of years. That was just where the Lord had me start. It's not what I HAVE TO give, it's what I GET TO give to the Lord's work.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 4/3/2008 6:23:48 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
I understand what you are saying, but you are saying it because you think i need a command directly spelled out under the NC in order for me to obey the tithe. As i've said before, the absence of the tithing directive under the NC has almost nothing to do with why i do not believe in tithing.
No, I was saying that because you seemed to discount tithing simply because Jesus only mentioned produce when He told them they were right to have tithed.
1. Jesus command here was still directed to those who were under the law. That context is clear at the beginning of Matt 23 in verses 2-3
“The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do"
So the the fact of the matter here is that Jesus command would not confirm the validity of tithing anymore than my stance about the validity of the tithe of produce.
2. Just because Jesus only mentioned produce or because the tithe command is absent in the NC, is not at all why i do not teach tithing. So the idea about me being a legalist for those reasons is a false pretense.
Here's my reasons so you don't have to keep guessing.
- I believe the Holy Spirit is in place to tutor us just as much as the law was the tutor for Israel under the law. (Gal 3:17, Gal 5:16-18)
- I believe if the Spirit is truly guiding a ministry than the Spirit will guide others to support it.
- I believe that Exodus 23 (before tithing was instituted for Israel) is a perfect example of how to support God's ministry by Spirit-led and grace giving.
- I believe that 10% was instituted into the law because of Jacob's covenant with God that was contingent upon the inheritance of the promised land. We are not bound to the token promises of our fathers (Gen 28, John 7:22) (yes, this view is possibly my most rational point, and it comes with very little support)
- I believe grace giving is a principle because of the example of God giving to us. Tithing is a standard that can be used as a tool, but is not a principle rule for all or even most. (2 Tim 1:9, Eph 4:7)
- I believe that 100% stewardship cannot be perfected by a one-size-fits-all command. (Luke 18:22)
- I believe that we are all 100% stewards and no matter the weight of gold we place on an earthly balance, it is our godly heart that will be measured by the eternal balance.
Those are good enough reasons alone without so much of the rational logic. Once you add rational logic on top of all that, the evidence just becomes overwhelming to me.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 4/4/2008 8:56:14 AM
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P31W
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quote:
I believe that 10% was instituted into the law because of Jacob's covenant with God that was contingent upon the inheritance of the promised land.
ROFL man is that off the wall or what!!!
quote:
I believe if the Spirit is truly guiding a ministry than the Spirit will guide others to support it.
I guess when Paul was in "want" the reason was because the Spirit was not guiding his ministry.
quote:
I keep running into that legalist mindset where people have to have everything drawn out in precise detail.
That was my first thought as well. Legalist never do understand how Jesus views the law. Legalist view it the way the Pharasees did as a set of rule written in stone rather than what God told us it is - spiritural.
Like you I have come to see two groups of people. Those who view the law as Jesus and David did and those who viewed it like the Pharasees did. It's kinda crazy but the very one's who balk at the law the most are the very ones who view it through the pharasees lenses.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 4/4/2008 10:45:32 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
I believe if the Spirit is truly guiding a ministry than the Spirit will guide others to support it.
I guess when Paul was in "want" the reason was because the Spirit was not guiding his ministry.
It's Paul's job to tell others that he's in need, just like it's the job of a widow to tell the church she's struggling with her bills.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 4/6/2008 3:07:20 AM
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rparlo
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I believe in tithing and do so as well as give a free-will offerings because I believe it to be God's will for Christians. However, I realize that the most important thing that anyone should do is to love God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength because this will lead them to hear his voice through scripture confirming the still small voice speaking to their heart. Then, they will do whatever He tells them to do. This is what makes our actions pleasing in His sight.
Tithing was used to do a variety of things. First, it was given to simply honor God for His provision. It came forth by faith (before the law (Ten Commandments, etc.) was ever written) through Abraham (the father of our faith) to Melchizedec (the high priest of God Almighty) as described in Genesis 14:20. Second, some of it was used to provide for the temple priests, Levites, and their families because they did not inherit a region of land as did the other tribes of Israel as there God-given duty was to help care for the temples where the people could worship God and make atonement for their sins (Numbers 18). Third, some of it was used for the upkeep of the temple and religious worship (2Chronicles 31:5-7). Fourth, some of it was used to provide some gleanings for the poor, widows, and oppressed (Deuteronomy 14:22-29).
I believe that New Testament scriptures that speak to tithing (Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42, and Hebrews 7:7-10) would have it utilized by God’s delegated authorities in similar ways in His church and the many expressions of it (local churches). Also, that it has always been an sign growing faith that would evangelistically lead unbelievers in every age (six thousand years ago to the present) to the one and only living God as they witness the awesome love God has for His people and they to Him even with regard to their money, which can be the hardest resource to completely release to God‘s will. We’re willing to release it to Him even though it seems it may hurt us financially or hamper our plans and He takes care of us even though we take a financial (spiritual in nature) that men say is stupid at best.
My research shows me that the word tithe represents "test" and "ten percent." No matter what your income is, a tithe represents ten-percent of that and the temptation to not give it is a test to see if God's money is more important to you than He is.
My belief is that tithing does not have to be money if your income is other things (chickens, plants, beds, whatever). If you earned only these things then you could give only these things. Quite frankly, you could take money and purchase these things for your local church. However, they would probably not be an unblemished gift if they are not what the organization needs or could use in ministry to others. Most things that one could earn beside money can be converted to money as necessary and a ten percent portion of that given to support ministry.
I certainly don’t have all the answers. I simply do what I believe God would have me do after I have studied the scripture and I teach it wherever God has opened doors for me to teach. However, I don‘t worry about what other people do because I‘m not their judge. God Almighty is the Judge of our hearts and He will be the one who determines whether we have loved Him with our all and loved our neighbors as ourselves.
I hope this helps.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 4/6/2008 6:55:57 PM
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sunofone
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quote:
I certainly don’t have all the answers. I simply do what I believe God would have me do after I have studied the scripture and I teach it wherever God has opened doors for me to teach. However, I don‘t worry about what other people do because I‘m not their judge. God Almighty is the Judge of our hearts and He will be the one who determines whether we have loved Him with our all and loved our neighbors as ourselves.
I just wanted to drop a note on this subject that might be refreshing.I have actually learned something in my following and participation in this thread.It is not as black and white as I first believed,this issue of tithing.
While I am even more certain that teaching tithing as a requirement is biblically incorrect,I do have a new found appreciation for those who both practice and teach the virtues of tithing.
Before following this thread I was uncertain if my judgment was correct,I have since found out,that not all of you who follow the practice of tithing have arrived there through coercion,or ignorance.
This may sound a bit off color or condescending,it is not I can assure you of this.I really have learned something beneficial here.
Thanks for the discussion
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 4/27/2008 3:06:00 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
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In giving of your money to church 10% is a good place to start.
As far as "the storehouse" I don't know what kind of church you all attend but at our church we do have a "store house" but it's not a produce market. Our church gives goods and services to it's members when the needs are known, it also gives support to other ministries and projects outside of our congregation.
I have various posts here tearing down the "tithe" etc.
I personally don't care what you think of the "tithe", you can call it "New Testament Giver" whatever but the fact remains that you shouldn't come to God empty handed.
I'll go out on a limb, if you have a problem with giving that's evidence of what kind of shape your heart is, not your pocket book or bank account.
I give a portion that is above "10%". I don't make a bunch of money (under $50,000 household income). The reason I give is because I really believe that our congregation is spreading the news of Christ in our community and through the world. We're a church of misfits (aren't they all really?) I want more misfits there. I give because I know that the money is used wisely and the leaders know they must answer to God for it's use. I give because when a the mother and father of a family are fighting and almost in a state of divorce the church can offer counseling free of charge like they did to us. I give so when a family has a hard time meeting the childcare bill they church can pay it for them (all funds come from the members, some give for specific incidences such as these).
If your church isn't motivating you to give by seeing all the work that God is doing through it, find another church. Because chances are if God isn't working in your church, somebody (or group of somebodies) isn't allowing God to lead.
The best motivation in the world to give...because you WANT to, because you feel like you HAVE to, when you see what God CAN do.
Then enters the issue of faith and stewardship, which are FAR more hindering to peoples giving...why, because the don't have FAITH.
So bicker among yourselves about how the "10%" isn't biblical...blah blah blah....
10% is a good starting point that I encourage ANYONE to start with. You may have to give up a soda a day, or maybe even pack a lunch but 10% is not as big a deal as most people make of it....
of course your wife does NEED her nails done...and you may NEED that SUV...
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Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 5/4/2008 12:31:46 PM
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TonyRush
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quote:
God requires 10% of your firstfruits. When your pay comes in, the FIRST thing that gets paid out IS your tithe! It gets set aside before you pay rent, or utilities, or purchase groceries or put gas in your car, or ANYTHING... Tithe FIRST, and he'll make sure what's left will suffice! Nonsense. And you can't find anything in Scripture to support such an unBiblical teaching. You can't find anywhere in the Bible where anyone ever gave 10% of their money to a church, synagogue, "storehouse", etc. The concept of "tithing" was for Jews and pertained to grain and agriculture, never money.
To the person who asked, if your pastor is telling you that you need to give 10% of your income to his church even though you're in debt and can't pay your bills, you should find another church.
Tony
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"The significant problems we face cannot be solved by the same quality of thinking that created them" -- Albert Einstein
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 5/4/2008 2:34:58 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
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Yeah, you should be going to a church where the "pastor" is telling you that living in debt and counting on credit cards to pull you through isn't putting faith in God to provide your needs. You should be looking for a church that makes provisions for financial counseling and stewardship.
Credit cards ARE NOT GOD'S GIFT for stability in an emergency.
lol
If you can't pay your bills, that says something about your priorities and immaturity with money.
As far as tithes being "unbiblical" there are far more damaging and far fetched doctrines that people are pitching that others buy into.
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Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 4:00:19 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TonyRush
quote:
God requires 10% of your firstfruits. When your pay comes in, the FIRST thing that gets paid out IS your tithe! It gets set aside before you pay rent, or utilities, or purchase groceries or put gas in your car, or ANYTHING... Tithe FIRST, and he'll make sure what's left will suffice! Nonsense. And you can't find anything in Scripture to support such an unBiblical teaching. You can't find anywhere in the Bible where anyone ever gave 10% of their money to a church, synagogue, "storehouse", etc. The concept of "tithing" was for Jews and pertained to grain and agriculture, never money.
To the person who asked, if your pastor is telling you that you need to give 10% of your income to his church even though you're in debt and can't pay your bills, you should find another church.
Tony
Yeah, Tony, you're kind of right because there are several examples of people giving 100% in the NT, which is what God expects from believers. He doesn't give us the ability to earn mountains of money just to heap upon our own gluttonous/lustful wants and pleasure. Jesus derrided one group that only brought a miserly 10% while blessing the widow who gave everything she had. The example was repeated in the NT church.
[Edited to correct typos]
< Message edited by JimboFletch -- 5/6/2008 4:10:18 PM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 4:03:26 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues
As far as tithes being "unbiblical" there are far more damaging and far fetched doctrines that people are pitching that others buy into.
I agree completely. I wouldn't trade places with anyone who hasn't had the benefit of the past 30 or so years the Lord has brought me through, beginning with my miserly 10% of net income and Him growing me much beyond that.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 6:49:04 PM
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dmj4rep
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Having been in the church for many years, there is a definite pattern. That, being the biggest stresses are the financial people saying we need money for the building, lights, carpet, heat, etc.
We hear that so much that sometimes it seems like that pattern must not fit what God had in mind for the church. What if we didn't build the monuments but gave the money directly to the poor?
For one thing, there wouldn't be a state run welfare system. I heard a preacher say that since the church hasn't done it's job of taking care of the orphans and widows, the state had to because God is going to take care of the poor and the widows even if he has to grab the money out of our pockets.
That is exactly what happens. We build competitive monuments, fret about them forever and the state has to come in and force us to pay for the support of the widows and orphans without them hearing that the Lord is providing for them. Probably not what God had in mind.
PrayerQuake
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 8:21:13 AM
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P31W
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quote:
We build competitive monuments
I don't attend churches that put possessions over people. It's a choice that I make. No church I have been a member of has ever "had or been in debt" or put themselves into financial bondage over a buidling. Why would a person in the USA "choose" to be a member of a chruch that did that when they don't have to.
So for me it's really pointing the finger back at myself if I chose to join a church that was into that type of stuff. "I" would be the guilty party not others. I would be the one who is wrong not God's word of his plan.
quote:
What if we didn't build the monuments but gave the money directly to the poor?
The use of the tithe was not "first" to feed the poor with food. But to help support those whose lives were dedicated to doing the work of the Lord.
Our first responsibility is to preach the word in season and out. If we stop doing that or put feeding the poor above that we are not obeying God and are no better than a govermental welfare system that only meets physical needs while allowing the spiritural needs of people to be in darkness for eternity.
Let's not try to starve the "main work" of the church by giving all our money to feed the poor. Let's give them living water so they will never thrist again.
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/8/2008 8:31:43 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 5/8/2008 8:29:07 AM
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P31W
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Oh yea.
Money is nothing more than a medium of exchange. In OT times "food" and "aminals" were a form of money.
Spiritural principles are a hard thing for some folks to grasp. It's the work of the Holy Spirit that opens their eyes to the deeper meaning of scripture.
Below is an example of a spiritural principle that some in the church had a hard time grasping. Paul had to treat them as babes who lacked full understanding and explain it to them in terms they could better understand. I am sure some ignored him and said that was the OT law and they were dead to the law and didn't need the law because the HS was living in them or that was for the Jews only. People are pretty much the same now that they were then. They make up all kinds of reasons to ignore God's principles.
1Co 9:9
For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain."
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/8/2008 8:40:05 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 5/28/2008 11:07:32 AM
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jackofnone
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I give 10% of my gross pay. I know what the money is used for. If you don't know maybe you should find out. Mine goes for the basics,plus a food pantry, for the needy, missions. This church has about 100 members in a small community and the church manages to give around $18,000.00 for missions alone to places like haiti and thailand and other places.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/2/2008 3:19:06 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: carlkeigley
I only read the last page of this debate.
Glad to find one of Euty's hangouts. haha.
Why does this issue get so much attention?
Because it hits us all in the same place, the pocket book.
There are many smoke screens, but it's the pocket book.
The givers give to God from their thankfulness and perspective of obedience.
The non-givers come up with whatever excuse seems handy and even blame
God for their excuses.
For one, I just don't get it.
And like many, feel ostricized when I leave. lol.
Great to see you again Carl. Might I also say, "Right on!"
"Lord, I give you my all and trust you with my all - except the checkbook."
I think this hits the nail on the head. If the New Testament states that we are to give to the church, but doesn't clarify how much, but in the old testament they gave 10% I feel we should give at least that. Look how much better we have it. I think most people just want a way out of giving and make up some excuse. Heck WE SHOULD GIVE IT ALL. ITS HIS ANYWAY. So quit trying to find a way out of giving and trust God.
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Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/2/2008 6:07:12 PM
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Apparition
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I believe that a tithe is not required, as per the definition that a tithe is 10% given to the church.
What I believe in is cheerful giving that comes straight from the heart, and it doesn't have to be to a church.
As Christians we are called to give to those who have a need when we have a means of filling that need..
I think any church that preaches a tithe is forgetting 2 Cor 9:7 and would be better suited to ask for money for specific needs as they arise rather than falsely leading it's members into believing that a tithe is commanded by God..
As Christians, I would hope that we all have a yearning for the truth, no matter what the cost.. and I don't think that the non-tithers are just looking for excuses, especially when I'm sure most of them (us) are still giving generously as IS suggested in scripture.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/2/2008 6:23:48 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
If the New Testament states that we are to give to the church, but doesn't clarify how much
Interesting. The NT states that we are to go to a church fellowship, but it doesn't clarify where either. I guess that means we won't know what to do with ourselves.
 I wish the Holy Spirit was able to guide us in decisions.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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