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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/3/2008 12:57:13 PM
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Soxfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: trumpeter4Jesus
I would challenge those of you who don't believe in the tithe or those of you who feel you can't afford to tithe to give God a chance! You won't regret it. God Bless!
Your statement above implies that those who don't believe in tithing usually give less than 10%.
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/4/2008 12:00:35 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: trumpeter4Jesus
I would challenge those of you who don't believe in the tithe or those of you who feel you can't afford to tithe to give God a chance! You won't regret it. God Bless!
Your statement above implies that those who don't believe in tithing usually give less than 10%.
I wouldn't know if that is or isn't true because I've never been given a straight answer when I've asked but the stats show that believers as a whole only give 2%-2.5% to various ministries or through a church. So, one might be tempted to conclude that non-tithers generally give less than 10%. Of course, that's just speculation.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/4/2008 1:35:23 PM
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P31W
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I think we have a little more than speculation on our side here Jimbo. Look at the stats for denominational giving. You will find that the church who teach/preach free will collect less than those who teach/preach tithe.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/4/2008 2:03:08 PM
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jbbaab44
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Let's all become mormons, since they give the most.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/5/2008 9:43:14 AM
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jbbaab44
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Nope, it illustrates how you can't make truth based on the performance of mankind.
Greed is not biased to those who practice grace giving. May I remind you that Israel fell to the cloak of greed while under the tithing law anyways.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/5/2008 11:12:39 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
Nope, it illustrates how you can't make truth based on the performance of mankind.
Greed is not biased to those who practice grace giving. May I remind you that Israel fell to the cloak of greed while under the tithing law anyways.
I cite the book of Malachi as proof your assertion is not true. What they did give was the leftovers and unworthy. And many, to use God's term, simply chose to rob Him.
Their greed led to them failing to even give a tithe. That's not much different than what the stats show us today.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/5/2008 11:16:30 AM
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jbbaab44
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what assertion are you talking about?
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/7/2008 9:03:56 AM
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sunofone
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I wanted to chime in once again, sharing what I've learned over the course of this discussion.First I wanted to ask you to put a little more flesh on the bones you offered here in response to jbbab,Jimbo.
I realize that you only intended to drop a quick line to respond to his assertion.It seems the scripture reference in Nehemiah 13 would have been better suited to illustrate your point,then the Malachi reference you provided.
I feel the scriptures in Malachi are almost always seriously butchered,missing completely what God was addressing.
quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
Nope, it illustrates how you can't make truth based on the performance of mankind.
Greed is not biased to those who practice grace giving. May I remind you that Israel fell to the cloak of greed while under the tithing law anyways.
I cite the book of Malachi as proof your assertion is not true. What they did give was the leftovers and unworthy. And many, to use God's term, simply chose to rob Him.
Their greed led to them failing to even give a tithe. That's not much different than what the stats show us today. I have that much money budgeted for "entertainment".
Now back to what I've learned since participating in this thread.This is not a winnable argument to be had here.Those of us on opposing sides have no magic scripture reference to pull out to convince the other that they are holding onto a faulty position.
I have also learned that those of you who do subscribe to tithing have some very good reasons for doing so.I have provided three post from PW31,Jimbo and RPARLO that have shown me something very favorable concerning the heart of those who tithe.It is not my contention that this heart toward God and giving is in any way unique to tithers as a whole or solely.
It was just noteworthy to me in reading these post because I admittedly had a negative view of those who both taught and practiced tithing.While I still feel strongly that teaching tithing as a mandate is flat out wrong,I can respect the testimony of these three witnesses who do believe in following the principle/practice of tithing.
P31W “What are some ways that I can use that money each week to be both entertained, help our society and possibly make a profit for myself. (profit from a financial stand point or just a better standard of living)
(I want "win win" situations for everyone - brainstorm ideas - let's think outside the box - I hate that saying - let's crush the box!)
Here are a few of the ways we started with. I want to see how many I missed.
We would go fishing and catch our meal or the night at least. Often times enough for several meals.....I could save my grocery money and use that to build up our nest egg. We could invite our friends over for a big fish fry - pot luck style - lots of fun and food for everyone.
We would use the money to purchase seed and grow our own potatoes (makes great fries with that fish) and even have enough produce to allow others to come pick on halves. Some of our neighbors would take what they picked and fill their freezer then go sell it under the bridge where other farmers would be selling their fresh produce.
We purchased "fruit trees" - a bundle of whips with a neighbor. Split the cost and each take a few whips of each variety. Now we enjoy fresh apples, pears, peaches and plums. We allow others to enjoy what they want as well. Great family activity to plant trees and watch them grow and produce food. Great learning activity for the children.
Purchase educational material so that my family can learn about various topics that can help us in the future do better or be better. (medical, investing, business, books/tapes on physical fitness, - you can tell I never purchased a spelling book )”
Jimbo “FWIW, I haven't tithed on my gross income in a lot of years. That was just where the Lord had me start. It's not what I HAVE TO give, it's what I GET TO give to the Lord's work.”
RPARLO “ I believe that New Testament scriptures that speak to tithing (Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42, and Hebrews 7:7-10) would have it utilized by God’s delegated authorities in similar ways in His church and the many expressions of it (local churches). Also, that it has always been an sign growing faith that would evangelistically lead unbelievers in every age (six thousand years ago to the present) to the one and only living God as they witness the awesome love God has for His people and they to Him even with regard to their money, which can be the hardest resource to completely release to God‘s will. We’re willing to release it to Him even though it seems it may hurt us financially or hamper our plans and He takes care of us even though we take a financial (spiritual in nature) that men say is stupid at best.”
“My research shows me that the word tithe represents "test" and "ten percent." No matter what your income is, a tithe represents ten-percent of that and the temptation to not give it is a test to see if God's money is more important to you than He is.
I certainly don’t have all the answers. I simply do what I believe God would have me do after I have studied the scripture and I teach it wherever God has opened doors for me to teach. However, I don‘t worry about what other people do because I‘m not their judge. God Almighty is the Judge of our hearts and He will be the one who determines whether we have loved Him with our all and loved our neighbors as ourselves.
I hope this helps.”
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/8/2008 6:35:10 PM
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Honeyrose
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Personally, I have no problem with tithing but I don't think it should become a salvation issue. And also while reading in the old testament, I read where the levitical priest were not allowed to own land as God would be their provider and they could eat of the sacrificial offerings.
Well, if tithing is still required from the O.T. and preachers are considered God's messengers, then why do they own homes, planes, cars etc?
_____________________________
Victory is sweetest when you've known defeat.
-- Malcolm Forbes (1919-1990) American Publisher
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/9/2008 8:09:14 AM
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P31W
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quote:
I read where the levitical priest were not allowed to own land
Do you have the scripture for this?
I believe Priest were allowed to own land, grow crops and have livestock. They did have the right to private ownership.
quote:
I don't think it should become a salvation issue
I don't believe anyone in this debate has made it a salvation issue.
< Message edited by P31W -- 6/9/2008 8:21:33 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/9/2008 8:11:45 AM
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P31W
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I have provided three post from PW31,Jimbo and RPARLO that have shown me something very favorable concerning the heart of those who tithe.
sunofone,
thank you. 
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/9/2008 8:53:58 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Honeyrose
Personally, I have no problem with tithing but I don't think it should become a salvation issue. And also while reading in the old testament, I read where the levitical priest were not allowed to own land as God would be their provider and they could eat of the sacrificial offerings.
Well, if tithing is still required from the O.T. and preachers are considered God's messengers, then why do they own homes, planes, cars etc?
In the NT, all believers are Priests... therefore, what? None of us are to own homes, planes, cars etc. We are all to be stewards of what belongs to God (all that He entrusts us with).
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/9/2008 8:57:40 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
I read where the levitical priest were not allowed to own land
Do you have the scripture for this?
The Lord was the Levite's portion when the land was divided in the Promised Land. As I remember it, they were allowed parcels to grow some food and, perhaps, animals, but they did not own land individually that could be passed down to or redeemed by family.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/9/2008 10:42:12 AM
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P31W
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I realize the Levites had no "inheritance" but I do not believe the Levites or Priest were not "allowed" to have homes, property (even outside the promise land) or other forms of personal property. (note the poster said land, cars and planes)
Lev 25 around vs. 30 discusses their right to home ownership.
< Message edited by P31W -- 6/9/2008 10:56:19 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/9/2008 11:34:31 AM
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sunofone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
I realize the Levites had no "inheritance" but I do not believe the Levites or Priest were not "allowed" to have homes, property (even outside the promise land) or other forms of personal property. (note the poster said land, cars and planes)
Lev 25 around vs. 30 discusses their right to home ownership.
30. This provision was made to encourage strangers and proselytes to come and settle among them. Though they could not purchase land in Canaan to them and their heirs, yet they might purchase houses in walled cities, which would be most convenient for those who were supposed to live by trade. But country houses could be disposed of no otherwise than as lands might. 6. A clause is added in favour of the Levites, by way of exception from these rules. (1.) Dwelling houses in the cities of the Levites might be redeemed at any time, and, if not redeemed, should revert in the year of jubilee (v. 32, 33), because the Levites had no other possessions than cities and their suburbs, and God would show that the Levites were his peculiar care; and it was for the interest of the public that they should not be impoverished, or wormed out of their inheritances. (2.) The fields adjoining to their cities (Num. 35:4, 5) might not be sold at any time, for they belonged, not to particular Levites, but to the city of the Levites, as a corporation, who could not alienate without a wrong to their tribe; therefore, if any of those fields were sold, the bargain was void, v. 34. Even the Egyptians took care to preserve the land of the priests, Gen. 47:22.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2008 2:51:44 AM
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prophet
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Sorry
i did not read all the posts but...
deut 18
1 The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance. 2 Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them. 3 And this shall be the priest's due from the people, from them that offer a sacrifice, whether it be ox or sheep; and they shall give unto the priest the shoulder, and the two cheeks, and the maw.
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/19/2008 10:56:31 PM
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LBolt
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I'm kind of butting in on this discussion here. In Malachi 3, it should be noted that in verses 3-7, (especially verse 7) the problem was that they had stop walking in the Torah. This was the main problem. This is overlooked, big time!! Turning back to God and walking in Torah was this the issue.
That was the purpose of YAH sender His messenger to prepare THE WAY. You can tithe all day long and be faithful at it... but if you aren't walking in YAH's WAY, you are still robbing God. SELAH
This is why, in my opinion, some people are giving, tithing and still getting broke and more broke. I also don't like the way it's taught. I heard Creflo Dollar say a few years back that if you aren't a tither you are going to hell. I've also seen people pay their tithes at the expense of financially neglecting their family and basic needs and go without seriously. Maybe financial stewardship was to blame...I don't know. I believe wholeheartedly in tithing...but if you got bills and creditors, you also have a moral obligation to not withhold good to them to whom it is do.
Having done loan officer work and from conversing with others in this field, a large portion of saints have poor credit. Faithful tithe paying saints! The ones who you consider financial backbones in a ministry.
On the flip side of the coin, what is the tithe supposed to be used for? Is it just for church upkeep, expanding a new wing on the building, lining the pockets of the preacher (you know a big fat cadillac with the diamond in the back, gator shoes, big time crib)?
I see the preacher blest and rollin' but the people are broke and busted. I think that there must be sound balance teaching on both ends. Yes we are to tithe and what and how the money is spent.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/22/2008 8:11:38 AM
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Little_1
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I am happy to be proved wrong but what I have so far studied over the past day re: tithing is that if anyone wishes to tithe in the NT church then they may do so; however, tithing does not seem to be an obligatory requirement of the NT church. What is obligatory is that we decide what we are going to give and do so cheerfully, i.e. give out of a heart of love and such is not restricted by amounts even!
Very challenging study.
< Message edited by Little_1 -- 6/22/2008 8:21:59 AM >
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"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer." ROMANS 12:12
Testimony
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/22/2008 10:25:52 AM
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1dblthnk02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
In Malachi 3, it should be noted that in verses 3-7, (especially verse 7) the problem was that they had stop walking in the Torah. This was the main problem. This is overlooked, big time!!
Is it ever.
I think that lack of faith was a big issue, too. Look at chapter 2, verse 2: God chides the priests for not taking it to heart when giving glory to Him. The faithlessness of the priests was also the basis of a great deal of the contention between Christ and the Pharisees, Saducees, et al.
Btw, note that verse one of chapter two identifies that Malachi's word was for the priests, not the congregation.
quote:
I also don't like the way it's taught.
I hate the way that it is taught. They misconstrue Malachi as a quid pro quo clause. But it doesn't work that way, as you pointed out:
"Having done loan officer work and from conversing with others in this field, a large portion of saints have poor credit. Faithful tithe paying saints!"
quote:
ORIGINAL: Little_1
tithing does not seem to be an obligatory requirement of the NT church.
I agree wholeheartedly.
quote:
What is obligatory is that we decide what we are going to give and do so cheerfully, i.e. give out of a heart of love and such is not restricted by amounts even!
Yes, this is a good point. Imagine if I stumbled into a $10,000 windfall of some kind, but I was self-satifisfied to give my 10% to the church when God really wanted me to bless the church with 50% of it-- or 100%!
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/22/2008 2:59:59 PM
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LBolt
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Hey Cherished ID theft is something different altogether! But lack of proper stewardship is another.
My problem with some of your positions is in this thread is how you refer to the "OT saints" and the "NT saints."
I know there is a hotly contested debate these days regarding the OT and NT saints. Just go to the Law thread to view this, however we must remember that the "Old Testament" was considered "The Scripture" by the writers of the letters in the NT. II Tim. 3:15-17, James 1:22-25, 2:8-12, 4:11-12, John 5:46-47,7:38,... Just to list a few things. The Evangelist Stephen in Acts 7:38 refers to Moses' generation as "the church in the wilderness." In 1 Cor. 10:1, they referred to as "our fathers."
The TaNaKH was the only Holy Scrolls available to them. Most of the trade then was farming and shepherding.
I said all that to say, that Torah was read in the syagogues every Sabbath in the "infant church" and the people adhered to it's precepts...including tithing. Just something to keep in mind.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/22/2008 3:16:37 PM
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sunofone
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quote:
I said all that to say, that Torah was read in the syagogues every Sabbath in the "infant church" and the people adhered to it's precepts...including tithing. Just something to keep in mind. Could I trouble you to provide some evidence of this statement here?I'd like to know exactly how you determined that the NT Church followed the Torah and the levitical law of tithing.Thanks
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/22/2008 9:31:47 PM
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LBolt
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No trouble at all, go to Act 15:21; Acts 17:2; Luke 4:16-21.
It was customary, as part of the liturgy, to read from the Torah (Moses), the Nevi'im (prophets) and the khetuvim (the writings) and a visiting Rabbi or rabbi would expound on those verses. The early church, being not far detached from true Judiasm continued this custom. In fact the original arrangement of the TaNaKH and this can be seen in the TaNaKH today was Torah, Nevi'im and Khetuvim. Luke 24:44 bears this out. Where Law of Moses (Torah), prophets (Nevi'im) and Psalms (writings).
Acts 15 settled a controversy regarding being circumcised after phariasic custom in order to be saved and how they handled the matter. They gave a few things for them to follow and when Sabbath rolled around, they would learn more when Moses (Torah) was read in the synagogues (verse 21)
In another post in the Bible thread I pointed out that because the scrolls of the Word of God was very expensive to make (it required the slaughter of a large number of sheep and animal hides in to make the scroll) and not every one could afford to have one in the home. The priest and religious leader, whose main function was teach and instruct God's people in the Way would have been given the privelge of attending to this task.
That why Sha'ul (Apostle Paul) admonished Timothy to study to show thyself approved until God...rightly dividing the Word of Truth. As a pastor it was his duty to teach the flock of God. This also explains why Paul said in Romans 10 that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. When the word was read in the synagogues, it being the very breath of God is capable of producing faith in the ears of the hearers.
The word would be expounded upon or preached, which is what the apostles and various ones did and people would come to faith. Of course, when we witness people can come to faith...
I hope this helps!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/22/2008 10:14:00 PM
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sunofone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
No trouble at all, go to Act 15:21; Acts 17:2; Luke 4:16-21.
It was customary, as part of the liturgy, to read from the Torah (Moses), the Nevi'im (prophets) and the khetuvim (the writings) and a visiting Rabbi or rabbi would expound on those verses. The early church, being not far detached from true Judiasm continued this custom. In fact the original arrangement of the TaNaKH and this can be seen in the TaNaKH today was Torah, Nevi'im and Khetuvim. Luke 24:44 bears this out. Where Law of Moses (Torah), prophets (Nevi'im) and Psalms (writings).
Acts 15 settled a controversy regarding being circumcised after phariasic custom in order to be saved and how they handled the matter. They gave a few things for them to follow and when Sabbath rolled around, they would learn more when Moses (Torah) was read in the synagogues (verse 21)
In another post in the Bible thread I pointed out that because the scrolls of the Word of God was very expensive to make (it required the slaughter of a large number of sheep and animal hides in to make the scroll) and not every one could afford to have one in the home. The priest and religious leader, whose main function was teach and instruct God's people in the Way would have been given the privelge of attending to this task.
That why Sha'ul (Apostle Paul) admonished Timothy to study to show thyself approved until God...rightly dividing the Word of Truth. As a pastor it was his duty to teach the flock of God. This also explains why Paul said in Romans 10 that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. When the word was read in the synagogues, it being the very breath of God is capable of producing faith in the ears of the hearers.
The word would be expounded upon or preached, which is what the apostles and various ones did and people would come to faith. Of course, when we witness people can come to faith...
I hope this helps!
Thanks for providing the response,although I was expecting or rather hoping for something more substantive than was provided.As it stands what was provided would not come close to providing evidence to support your claim that the Torah was read every sabbath in the synagogue and that the nt church practiced the Levitical law of tithing.
If you have something more substantive to support your claim here I would appreciate the info,if not I guess I'll just have to make due with the balance of scriptures that suggest your claim is for lack of a better word,erroneous.Thanks
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 6/22/2008 10:17:01 PM
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bjay0801
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