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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/20/2009 6:51:20 PM
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sunofone
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The laws that had been given to guide them in the wilderness had to be adjusted to account for this new civilized type of life which they were about to encounter in the Land of Canaan.
This prompted Moses to give a new introduction to his laws in the Book of the Covenant that had been enacted at Mount Sinai. The first 11 chapters of Deuteronomy constitute that new introduction. This instruction was reckoned as a prologue to the whole law which was made to allow the Israelites to understand the changes that were being legislated by Moses.
These modifications involved a number of laws, and tithing was no exception. The new environment in the Land of Canaan required some alterations in the way the tithe was to be gathered and utilized. Since in the wilderness most Israelites encamped close to the Tabernacle, it was then common for the people simply to deposit the tithe in the Temple treasury as the need arose. After the rebellion of Korah (some twenty years after Israel left Egypt), Moses determined that the tithe was then to be given exclusively to the Levites (Numbers 18:20–24).
It became clear to Moses, however, that the giving of the tithe had to be different in the Land of Canaan than in the wilderness. That land was well over one hundred miles long and some fifty miles wide. The various Israelite tribes were going to be scattered over an expansive area and even the Levites and Priests were to live in forty-eight cities located throughout the land (Joshua 21).
This dispersal of the people made it difficult to pay the tithe at one central location. This prompted Moses to authorize the forty-eight priestly cities scattered over the land as official sites where tithes could be stored or to be paid in certain tithing years.
This ratio of Israelites to Levites convinced Moses that a new and equitable tithe system for paying and distribution was needed once Israel inherited the Land of Canaan. He decided to make a change in how the tithe was to be distributed and spent. Moses commanded that Israelites were no longer to perform their tithing obligations in the manner they had observed them in the wilderness. "Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here [within the wilderness] this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes" (Deuteronomy 12:8). Moses began to regulate the religious activities of the Israelites with more precision. He made the laws more strict and with greater detail for Israel’s observance in the Land of Canaan.
Notice the context of the last quote. It is important. He said the Israelite did "whatsoever is right in his own eyes" (Deuteronomy 12:8). Moses was talking about the payment of tithe, burnt offerings, sacrifices, heave offerings, vows, free will offerings, firstlings of the herds and flocks (Deuteronomy 12:6). There were no laws regulating these matters.
Note that the law of the firstlings (that is, the firstborn of herds and flocks or the first fruit of harvest from farms) is a very different set of laws than those of tithing. They must not be confused as is sometimes done by preachers and priests who want to be the first paid from one’s income, so they erroneously apply the word "first" regarding animals and produce in this regard. But the law of firstlings is not for Christians. For firstlings see Numbers 3:12–13, 40–45; 8:16–18 and for first fruits see Leviticus 23:10–14; Numbers 18:12–28; Deuteronomy 18:4. One must distinguish these laws of the firstborn and first fruits from the law of tithing.
While in the wilderness the Israelites gave to the Levites what little tithe and firstlings and first fruits they had in any manner they pleased. At that time Moses said each Israelite had been able "to do whatsoever is right in his own eyes." But when they crossed into the Land of Canaan, this unregulated manner for doing such things was to stop. Once the central sanctuary was established in the midst of Canaan, new regulations were ordained by Moses to come into play. "Ye shall not do after all things that we do here [in the wilderness]" (Deuteronomy 12:8). These new directions were also changes in the laws of tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/20/2009 6:54:17 PM
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sunofone
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Since the wilderness existence of the Israelites allowed little increase from agricultural products or animals, Moses did not consider the question of tithing as being of pressing importance during the Exodus period. But now that Israel was going into the land of Canaan, it became necessary to regulate the matter. Moses recognized that a great deal of money and produce would be arriving at the central sanctuary each year. There had to be directions on how those monies should be used and distributed. Moses decided to adopt a system that would fairly benefit all the people in the nation. He did not want any part of Israelite society having an aristocratic lordship over other members. This inspired Moses to come up with the most equitable tithing system that could be imagined.
Look at what Moses did. Since the tribe of Levi was a small tribe in Israel, Moses saw that tithing ten percent of all agricultural and animal increase to them every single year (without any let-up) would give the Levites tremendous financial advantage over the other Israelites. He would have none of this.
When Moses saw that the Levites would be receiving more money than ordinary Israelites, he decided on a plan that would equalize the situation and let all Israelites have a share in the economic blessings that God was giving. First, he ordered that all Israelites set aside ten percent of their agricultural and animal production each year. Then he commanded that this tithe should be brought to a central place where the Tabernacle (later called the Temple) would be located (Deuteronomy 14:22–24). To accomplish this in a convenient way, Moses changed the law by allowing the tithe to be turned into money without the premium penalty of a fifth extra. This permitted the Israelites who lived far from the sanctuary to carry monetary tithe to the central Temple area unburdened (Deuteronomy 14:25). Those who lived closer could still transport their tithe of grain, oil or firstlings to the sanctuary.
When the Israelites arrived at the Temple, Moses commanded them to do something with their tithe that they were not allowed to do while in the wilderness. They could now use part of their tithe to rejoice before God at the central sanctuary. They were also to share it with the Levites (Deuteronomy 14:27). While formerly, only the Levites were to be given all tithes, now it was different.
In a seven year sabbatical period, the first, second, fourth and fifth years were times when the tithe payer himself could eat of the tithe at the Temple with the Levites having only a share. But in every third and sixth year, the tithe was to be kept in the Israelite’s own home area. In those years the tithe was not to be brought to the central sanctuary but given to the Levites and needy peoples located in communities throughout the country (Deuteronomy 14:28–29).
Look at what this meant. Every third and sixth years of a seven year sabbatical period were the only times that Levites got the full tithe (with the exception of that part of the tithe which went to the fatherless, strangers and widows, that is, to those who were destitute). This system was most equitable.
What must be clearly understood about this tithing plan devised by Moses is that there was only one tithe being discussed. It was one tithe being used differently in the various years of a sabbatical cycle. There was no so-called "second" or "third" tithe in the plan of Moses. To find reference to those extra "second" or "third" tithes, one has to leave the Bible and consult the opinions of various Jewish interpreters who (after the Babylonian Captivity, when so much previous knowledge from the Bible had been lost) became so strict that they invented a second and third tithe to show an excessive "righteousness" (Tobit 1:7ff; Josephus, Antiquities, IV, 240). The so-called second and third tithes were devised through traditional concepts, and not from heeding the biblical commands of Moses.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/20/2009 9:34:09 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 485
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quote:
ORIGINAL: all.consuming.fire
Sorry but I have not read this whole thread because of time. I apologize if this is redundant. If I dont work, and dont have ANY income, how can I still tithe? Can I tithe in my own way....for example give of my time etc.? Would God honor that?
What if you dont have an income are we required to tithe still, if so how does this work?
(Im a full-time student...I receive finacial aid though). Should I tithe on this? Its been on
my heart lately and I really want to get it right with God in this area.
Thanks for your replies 
I mean this with the utmost respect.If you're looking for someone to tell you what to do in regards to tithing.You should first consult your local Pastor,ask him or her to advise you on these matters.
This forum is primarily for debate.Debate can only give you arguments for either case,in the end you are still responsible for which side of the debate you fall in line with.
If you do not have trusted leadership,consult God along with careful study.Take time to view this site and numerous others on the issue of tithing.
Pray for understanding and peace that God will direct you in the best way to honor him.
In other words don't take our word for it.Dig for yourself.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/21/2009 1:31:47 AM
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Strider33
Posts: 366
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
If I obeyed you then I would be in my opinion disobeying God Himself and following a man made doctrine and not what I find in scripture.
I have never "told" you what to give to God or that YOU were to teach the tithe. NEVER> WHY?
Because I know that for YOU to teach something that does not come from faith is a SIN> (now turn that around and see what YOU are asking me to do flat out!!!!) See this is "beyond" the tithe and goes into asking someone to do what God has not directed them to do and not from faith. Yes what YOU and the other two posters ask me to do is a sin for me. That I why I have NEVER told any of you to "teach" the tithe.
I have discussed what "I" believe and teach. You did chose more than once as have the other two posters to tell me and other teachers/preachers who teach the tithe NO TO> That We are Wrong to do that. You don't have that "right" or "authority" to tell me or anyone else what we are to teach concerning something as silly as the tithe.
I don't recall telling you what to teach or not to teach.
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/21/2009 8:24:30 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2134
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quote:
What if you dont have an income are we required to tithe still, if so how does this work?
(Im a full-time student...I receive finacial aid though). Should I tithe on this? Its been on
my heart lately and I really want to get it right with God in this area.
Thanks for your replies
You tithe off your increase not on money others loan to you as a debt to be repaid.
You said you had no income. a tithe or 10% of nothing is nothing.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/22/2009 8:20:18 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Who is the source to all our resources?
God owns everything.
Her financial aid I don't know really anything about. If you notice I said "debt to be repaid".
It's simular to going to a bank and borrowing money for a home. You don't tithe on that money because it is a "debt" to be repaid. It's not "your money" really rather it's a debt that you must repay. As you earn the money - have an increase "then" you give of that increase to the Lord.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/22/2009 5:51:51 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 118
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Although I wanted this to be more about "God, His nature, and other characteristics," my thread was closed so this one will have to do. Below is what I asked in the other thread.
I have been thinking about this for a while. I have heard many times that God blesses those that tithe and/or give offerings. I am confident there are truths in that teaching. On the other hand, I have heard a few stories in my life about people that stop giving go into financial hardships (laid off, car repairs, etc). I even heard one story of a couple's daughter falling ill and the medical expenses cost the same amount of what their tithe would have been.
So, does God curse those that don't give? Or, does He just remove His blessing? Or does He even do anything at all?
I would appreciate any thoughts. Thanks!!
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/22/2009 11:44:10 PM
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Strider33
Posts: 366
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
Who is the source to all our resources?
God owns everything.
Her financial aid I don't know really anything about. If you notice I said "debt to be repaid".
It's simular to going to a bank and borrowing money for a home. You don't tithe on that money because it is a "debt" to be repaid. It's not "your money" really rather it's a debt that you must repay. As you earn the money - have an increase "then" you give of that increase to the Lord.
Agreed.
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/22/2009 11:54:17 PM
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Strider33
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
Although I wanted this to be more about "God, His nature, and other characteristics," my thread was closed so this one will have to do. Below is what I asked in the other thread.
I have been thinking about this for a while. I have heard many times that God blesses those that tithe and/or give offerings. I am confident there are truths in that teaching. On the other hand, I have heard a few stories in my life about people that stop giving go into financial hardships (laid off, car repairs, etc). I even heard one story of a couple's daughter falling ill and the medical expenses cost the same amount of what their tithe would have been.
So, does God curse those that don't give? Or, does He just remove His blessing? Or does He even do anything at all?
I would appreciate any thoughts. Thanks!!
God does not curse those who do not give. Nor does He remove his blessing. But among the blessings God has created, and put into this world where you and I live, some of those blessings can only be enjoyed by those who give. And those blessings are often not measurable in dollars and cents.
If you just measure the "return on investment" that the giver gets in terms of material wealth or the things money can buy, you're going to be disappointed with the way God blesses the one who gives. There are millions who give and who still live in conditions of dire material need. That's not the point.
In the "great debate" on tithing going on in this thread, I'm one of those who maintains that Christians are not bound by the 10% rule. But far be it from me to suggest that God does not urge each Christian to become a person who gives.
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/23/2009 5:20:08 AM
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Giulia
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From: Giulia
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You know. I listen to people preaching that God will bless you if you give a tithe. It makes me wonder when I see those who ask get rich and those who give get poorer. The bible also says if you have two coats give one to your brother/sister. I don't see preachers with two cars (who preach tithing) give one to someone who hasn't. I just see them getting richer and using scripture to advance themselves. Some preachers could feed the world with their money and Jesus never taught or preached to people who were hungry. He fed them first, then He preached to them. Fact is He wants you to give Him everything, not just a tithe. "He/she who does not hate his/her own life cannot be my disciple". "Sell up ALL you have and follow me". If all you do and all you have is for Him then He is happy with that. It's your heart that matters to Him and if you are stingy with that He will be stingy with you.
< Message edited by Giulia -- 1/23/2009 5:27:18 AM >
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Rejected by the world but loved by heaven
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/23/2009 6:24:33 AM
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Strider33
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There is an article by Ligon Duncan in christianity.com, "Christian Living", "Features" on the subject of Christian giving.
It's worth reading and commenting on.
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Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/23/2009 6:28:31 AM
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Annie64
Posts: 1095
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From: Indianapolis, IN
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I
quote:
ORIGINAL: Giulia
You know. I listen to people preaching that God will bless you if you give a tithe. It makes me wonder when I see those who ask get rich and those who give get poorer. The bible also says if you have two coats give one to your brother/sister. I don't see preachers with two cars (who preach tithing) give one to someone who hasn't. I just see them getting richer and using scripture to advance themselves. Some preachers could feed the world with their money
I assume you mean TV preachers. There are some on TV who act like this, but most pastors of local churches don't. You'd be surprised at how low the average pastor's salary is compared to others with a similar amount of education. My brother is pastor of a small church that doesn't even pay him at all. I've seen a lot of preachers, but few, if any, could be considered rich. My pastor does actually have three cars. He has five children, three of whom are adults and the fourth is 17 and is either learning to drive or maybe she has her license by now. Only one of the adult children no longer lives at home. Their newest car, I just found out Wednesday, is a 1995. Their other two are 19 and 20 years old. Would he give one to someone who didn't have a car at all? He would be less able to do that even than most people, because his kids depend on those undependable cars. But they do give rides, and it would never occur to them to ask for money to pay for gas. I'm sorry, but I do not begrudge my pastor his salary, which is lower than my husband's. I don't think my church is using the tithe I pay badly when they pay him and would be happy to see him get a raise if our church board saw fit to give him one.
And if by tithing I am making myself poorer, and I suppose to a certain extent I am, then perhaps I am laying up treasure in heaven. Not all blessings are financial, nor do all of them come in this life. That may sound like a cop-out, but I talked about this in an earlier post. My non-rebellious teenagers are a blessing. The love of my husband is a blessing. The fact that I have a supportive church family is a blessing. Would I have these things if I didn't give? I'm not going to stop tithing to try and find out! If God promises a blessing, He will give one. He doesn't go back on His promises. I know there's no specific command that obligates us to tithe as it is taught, but I also know that it is an awesome privilege that I wouldn't trade for the world.
I'm sorry if this sounds argumentative. I really don't want to sound that way. But I actually know a lot of pastors, since both I and my husband are from families heavily populated by this profession, and I guess I wanted to come to their defense. To judge all ministers by those seen on TV gives a distorted view of the ministry, and whether or not tithing is a command, the behavior of TV ministers is not a reason not to practice it.
_____________________________
On Christ the solid rock I stand
ALL other ground is sinking sand.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/23/2009 8:06:11 AM
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P31W
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Great Post Annie. My own pastor only makes $250.00 per week. Most Chruches the last time I checked were not large mega TV churches rather they are rather small. They are not wealthy and their pastors on average earn less than they could earn in the work force putting in the same amount of crazy hours and education level.
quote:
I have been thinking about this for a while. I have heard many times that God blesses those that tithe and/or give offerings. I am confident there are truths in that teaching. On the other hand, I have heard a few stories in my life about people that stop giving go into financial hardships (laid off, car repairs, etc). I even heard one story of a couple's daughter falling ill and the medical expenses cost the same amount of what their tithe would have been.
So, does God curse those that don't give? Or, does He just remove His blessing? Or does He even do anything at all?
I would appreciate any thoughts. Thanks!!
I want to give you my testimoney on tithing in extremely difficult financial times.
When I had my son I was a SAHM keeping the books for my husband's new business. We were broke but that was OK. My husband has always had the spiritural gift of giving and being his wife I think God has somewhat given me that gift as well or that desire. We always tithed and gave a little more to missions or the needy without much real thought behind it. For us the "tithe" - that is 10% more of less was what we put into the collection plate each week. We did have feelings for the offerings we gave.
To make a long story short God began to cause my husband to suffer from some illness that no doctor has ever been able to diagnose. This extremely bad illness lasted for three long years getting worse and worse. He was unable to even 'wake up" on certain days. His fever would hit 104 without warning, his weight dropped 50 lbs, this once strong man had no stregnth to even walk around our home and then towards the end his mind began to go. We spend weeks in various hospitals with "teams" of doctors trying to figure out what he had. He was slowly dying and no one could "stop it".
In those years he would on some days wake up and be perfectly fine. When that would happen several local wealthy business people would have him come do work for them. When he was paid we "tithed". Now it was something we had to "think hard about" because the medical bills were out the wazoo, the baby needed things, our rent was due on the first of each month as was our medical insurance and we had nothing of real value. Our vehicles were still in our parents names. We did have some savings but no enough to pay off the doctors much less hospitals. It took "faith" to tithe and not know "how" you were going to pay the other bills.
When we did that God began to move and move in ways that we had "no doubt" it was God at work. No human being could do the things we had occuring. Even something as simple as me at a pond crying because I "needed" to catch some fish for our supper. (cain pole, hook and worms) No fish would BITE and I was there for hours. Just when I wanted to "give up" and broke down praying that I was useless and could not even get food for my family a truck drove up. Two men jumped out and said you need to feed these fish let us help you. Within a few minutes those two men had caught over 50 fish putting them into my cooler. Then they laughed and drove away.
The "blessing" I recieved had nothing what so ever to do with money and yet everything to do with money.
That day stands in my mind as the "first day" my relationship with God grew by leaps and bounds and that was only the "tip" of the iceburg.
When people think that tithing is about "getting stuff" they have completely missed the greatest blessing of all. God tells us that the reason for the tithe is so that we can 'learn to fear God". And I can testify that though obedience to the tithe I certainly began to get a glimpse of that and it is out of this world.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/23/2009 4:25:12 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 118
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From: Minnesota
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I am not just wondering about tithing but also about if we sin. Does God curse those that sin? Or curse cities, neighborhoods, or businesses with hurricanes, fires, etc? I know this is off topic, but I was forced to discuss this here.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/23/2009 4:32:49 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6359
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: online
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When God punished people or nations in the Bible, they didn't have to guess, they knew. He always let them know it was coming.
There's not a lot of point in sending calamity on a people secretly.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/25/2009 4:57:20 PM
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yankeedoodle
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We are more bound by duty to provide for the poor than to tithe. Nonetheless scripture says, will a man thieve from God ?
We have duties;
Malachi 3:8
"Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. "But you ask, 'How do we rob you?' "In tithes and offerings.
Le 19:10
And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.
Even much more so. The Good Samaritan was not given in scripture in vain.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/25/2009 6:02:41 PM
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Giulia
Posts: 587
Joined: 9/29/2005
From: Giulia
Status: offline
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quote:
I assume you mean TV preachers. There are some on TV who act like this, but most pastors of local churches don't. You'd be surprised at how low the average pastor's salary is compared to others with a similar amount of education. My brother is pastor of a small church that doesn't even pay him at all. I've seen a lot of preachers, but few, if any, could be considered rich. My pastor does actually have three cars. He has five children, three of whom are adults and the fourth is 17 and is either learning to drive or maybe she has her license by now. Only one of the adult children no longer lives at home. Their newest car, I just found out Wednesday, is a 1995. Their other two are 19 and 20 years old. Would he give one to someone who didn't have a car at all? He would be less able to do that even than most people, because his kids depend on those undependable cars. But they do give rides, and it would never occur to them to ask for money to pay for gas. I'm sorry, but I do not begrudge my pastor his salary, which is lower than my husband's. I don't think my church is using the tithe I pay badly when they pay him and would be happy to see him get a raise if our church board saw fit to give him one.
And if by tithing I am making myself poorer, and I suppose to a certain extent I am, then perhaps I am laying up treasure in heaven. Not all blessings are financial, nor do all of them come in this life. That may sound like a cop-out, but I talked about this in an earlier post. My non-rebellious teenagers are a blessing. The love of my husband is a blessing. The fact that I have a supportive church family is a blessing. Would I have these things if I didn't give? I'm not going to stop tithing to try and find out! If God promises a blessing, He will give one. He doesn't go back on His promises. I know there's no specific command that obligates us to tithe as it is taught, but I also know that it is an awesome privilege that I wouldn't trade for the world.
I'm sorry if this sounds argumentative. I really don't want to sound that way. But I actually know a lot of pastors, since both I and my husband are from families heavily populated by this profession, and I guess I wanted to come to their defense. To judge all ministers by those seen on TV gives a distorted view of the ministry, and whether or not tithing is a command, the behavior of TV ministers is not a reason not to practice it.
I think a workman is worthy of his/her dues but the whole tithe thing is OT and the NT says to give ALL you have to Him. How you do that is up to you but He knows your heart. I think a lot of money hungry "preachers" have made this a rule so they can lord it over the people.
quote:
We are more bound by duty to provide for the poor than to tithe. Nonetheless scripture says, will a man thieve from God ?
We have duties;
Malachi 3:8
"Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. "But you ask, 'How do we rob you?' "In tithes and offerings.
Le 19:10
And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.
Even much more so. The Good Samaritan was not given in scripture in vain.
These scriptures (Malachi) get used to guilt whip people into giving them their tithes and offerings. Yes it is important to give to the poor and not oppress them but equally important to give to the ones who labour for our souls and water that seed which God has placed there. It does not have to be a rule of 10%. It could be less or more, however God moves you. Unfortunately some oppress the poor when they take their tithes or persuade them (with scripture) to give when they can barely eat. Monetary blessings are preached a lot and the true "seed" which is the Word of God takes the back seat. Yes, I am talking about a specific group of rich ministers. They cleverly use these OT scriptures to entice poor people to give with a promise that they will receive ten fold returns. Focus is on monetary blessings once again. They also cleverly fail to mention the copious scriptures which talk about oppressing the poor and the more important scripture which talk about denying the self in order to get abundant life in Christ. Hopefully in the light of this economic downturn focus will shift. I am praying that this will be the case and there will come a day that "blessing" will be recognised as the favour of God on a person regardless of the worldly riches they have or the things they can do and that this will be the desired blessing for all. One which lasts for ever and cannot be measured in worldly terms. Then the voice of God will be heard louder without being drowned out by people who are bad witnesses and who have forsaken God in favour of their own glory. God wants the soil of your soul and if you are divided with cares of the world or getting "more blessings" from the world it will be hard to hear His voice because that is where your focus is.
< Message edited by Giulia -- 1/25/2009 8:07:43 PM >
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Rejected by the world but loved by heaven
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2009 8:21:05 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2134
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quote:
I think a workman is worthy of his/her dues but the whole tithe thing is OT and the NT says to give ALL you have to Him. How you do that is up to you but He knows your heart. I think a lot of money hungry "preachers" have made this a rule so they can lord it over the people.
I've never given money to a Chruch where the "pastor" decided what he would earn. I have only given to chruches where the pastor is employed by the congregation and their pay is set and the amount collected each Sunday effects them in "no way" other than if they "don't" collect enough to pay him.
The "majority" of my teachers have been people who NEVER made a dime teaching. Just as I have never made a dime teaching God's work.
To be honest with you it cost most of us a pretty penny to educate ourselves and to buy the things we use in class to teach.
quote:
Yes, I am talking about a specific group of rich ministers.
They also had these types of people who used the gospel for "greedy gain" in the NT. For "believers" we are told how to spot them and to stay away from them. God puts the "responsibility" on the shoulders of the individual. God even tells us that they put around them people who will say "what they want to hear". They do this on "purpose" because they seek money over God.
quote:
. They cleverly use these OT scriptures to entice poor people to give with a promise that they will receive ten fold returns. Focus is on monetary blessings once again.
2 Timothy 4
3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
Here we see that God said that people who don't want to know the truth will be "active" in seeking out these types of people who will tell them what they "want" to hear.
The "individual" must take responsibility for their own evil desires. Even if the teacher they seek out is evil too.
< Message edited by P31W -- 1/26/2009 8:27:07 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2009 9:00:16 AM
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Strider33
Posts: 366
Joined: 4/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yankeedoodle
We are more bound by duty to provide for the poor than to tithe. Nonetheless scripture says, will a man thieve from God ?
We have duties;
Malachi 3:8
"Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. "But you ask, 'How do we rob you?' "In tithes and offerings.
Le 19:10
And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.
Even much more so. The Good Samaritan was not given in scripture in vain.
Malachi 3:8 does not apply to non Jewish Christians. See Acts chapter 15.
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Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2009 9:07:39 AM
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Strider33
Posts: 366
Joined: 4/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
The "individual" must take responsibility for their own evil desires. Even if the teacher they seek out is evil too.
When I spot a desire of mine as being evil, I don't "take responsibility" for it. I bring it to Jesus and lay it at his feet. Jesus has taken your evil acts and mine on Himself. He has also taken your evil desires and mine on Himself. I expect you also bring your evil desires to Jesus, the same as I do.
Getting back to the theme, blaming the student for what the teachers teach is in many cases way overboard. The people with itching ears that Paul was writing to Timothy about were adults who should have known better. In many cases, Christian teachers teach children or people who were recently born again. In cases like these, blaming the students is a misapplication of scripture.
Even if we assign some measure of responsibility to the learner, that doesn't absolve the teacher who teaches what is wrong. I think you said as much, but it's worth repeating.
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Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2009 9:44:20 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2134
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2 Timothy 4:1-8
1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. 6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
quote:
blaming the student for what the teachers teach is in many cases way overboard. The people with itching ears that Paul was writing to Timothy about were adults who should have known better.
I don't agree with you. I see GOD putting the blame on the individual and I don't see where God said anything about the maturity of those individuals who chose to follow their own evil desires.
quote:
Even if we assign some measure of responsibility to the learner, that doesn't absolve the teacher who teaches what is wrong.
No they too will stand before God "alone" and give an account.
quote:
When I spot a desire of mine as being evil, I don't "take responsibility" for it. I bring it to Jesus and lay it at his feet. Jesus has taken your evil acts and mine on Himself. He has also taken your evil desires and mine on Himself. I expect you also bring your evil desires to Jesus, the same as I do.
I do take responsibility for my own evil desires. I ask Jesus to forgive me and to help me overcome those evil desires.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2009 1:42:38 PM
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Strider33
Posts: 366
Joined: 4/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
2 Timothy 4:1-8
1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. 6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
quote:
blaming the student for what the teachers teach is in many cases way overboard. The people with itching ears that Paul was writing to Timothy about were adults who should have known better.
I don't agree with you. I see GOD putting the blame on the individual and I don't see where God said anything about the maturity of those individuals who chose to follow their own evil desires.
You and I are reading the same scriptures, but we do not have the same understanding.
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Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2009 3:45:32 PM
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ultimathule
Posts: 74
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From: A cold place country but now I live in Tokyo
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if churchs accept tithes they should not be allowed to also sell stuff in the church for profit.
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