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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2009 5:40:38 PM
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P31W
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quote:
You and I are reading the same scriptures, but we do not have the same understanding.
And I believe we are "both" teachers. ROFL
I don't believe God is waiting to "zap" one of us. To be honest with you I don't believe anyone other than Jesus was the "perfect" teacher.
quote:
if churchs accept tithes they should not be allowed to also sell stuff in the church for profit.
I think you are saying that Charities that claim tax exempt status should not be allowed to make money in any way other than through direct donations?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/27/2009 6:29:12 AM
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Strider33
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ultimathule
if churchs accept tithes they should not be allowed to also sell stuff in the church for profit.
I wonder what you mean by "sell". There are plenty of places where churches offer up things like books, with a suggested donation associated with each item. Most of the time, at least in my experience, it's intended that the truly needy who want the items be allowed to take them without paying.
I also wonder what you mean by "profit". There are plenty of situations where the church comes out ahead on an individual item. But the question of whether a church is really "profit making" or not is based on the bottom line, or the bottom line of each subdivision, but not each item.
I also wonder what you mean by "not allowed". Are you talking the tax code here? I'd like to protect the church from the tax code as much as possible. It's bad enough that the IRS has to decide when a church is "really a church". Let's not make it worse.
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/27/2009 10:36:11 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6343
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From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ultimathule
if churchs accept tithes they should not be allowed to also sell stuff in the church for profit.
Why, should they sell things at a loss or just trash anything no longer needed even if it could be useful?
Making a profit would be better stewardship, IMO.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/27/2009 10:42:26 AM
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P31W
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I have in mind the Salvation Army Chruch and the stores they operate. Their profits go to help the needy, those with addictions, unwanted pregnancy, homeless and so on in the community.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/28/2009 7:16:16 AM
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Strider33
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
I have in mind the Salvation Army Chruch and the stores they operate. Their profits go to help the needy, those with addictions, unwanted pregnancy, homeless and so on in the community.
Good example.
I am not a tax lawyer, so no one should take my opinions as expert ones. I surmise that the Salvation Army is organized as a not for profit enterprise on an entirely different basis than whether or not it is a "church". Consider Good Will Industries. They help the poor in some of the same ways, yet they are not a church, to my knowledge. They are most surely organized as a not for profit corporation.
There are two different aspects of tax exempt status: the first is whether they have to pay income tax on any earnings net of expenses. The second is whether contributors to them can deduct their contributions under itemized deductions (Schedule A of form 1040).
Both the Salvation Army and Goodwill Industries sell donated clothing at a price that more than covers their cost. As you say, the prodeeds of selling these items go towards their main purpose. Either Salvation Army or Goodwill Industries could turn a mild profit in any one given year and retain their non profit status, provided their net profits over time hovered around zero. Their net worth could expand over time based on donations kept in the form of an "endowment". When I hear the term "endowment" I think of Harvard University and the like, and not philanthropies. But it's the same idea.
As I said in a different response, I would want to shield churches from IRS oversight insofar as it's possible to do so without opening the door to abuse.
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/28/2009 7:19:48 AM
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Strider33
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
You and I are reading the same scriptures, but we do not have the same understanding.
And I believe we are "both" teachers. ROFL
I don't believe God is waiting to "zap" one of us. To be honest with you I don't believe anyone other than Jesus was the "perfect" teacher.
This is a good start. Now maybe you'll allow that God is not waiting to "zap" believers who don't tithe at 10%.
I'm not a teacher except in the sense that anyone who infulences other people is a teacher. I used to teach during part of my career, but not about matters of faith.
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/28/2009 8:36:37 AM
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P31W
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quote:
This is a good start. Now maybe you'll allow that God is not waiting to "zap" believers who don't tithe at 10%.
I have never said that. Nor has Euty or anyone else who has been involved in this debate on a "regular" basis.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/29/2009 4:43:24 AM
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Strider33
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
This is a good start. Now maybe you'll allow that God is not waiting to "zap" believers who don't tithe at 10%.
I have never said that. Nor has Euty or anyone else who has been involved in this debate on a "regular" basis.
This is a good second step. You're probably right that neither you nor Euty said that. But it's good to make it finally explicit. What some of you regulars on the other side of the discussion have been saying sounds like it implies that people who are being zapped or fell like they are being zapped brought it on themselves by not conforming to the teachings of you and Euty. Making it explicit that God is not waiting to zap people who don't tithe at 10% clears the air in this regard.
Now that we are agreed on two groups of people that God is not waiting to zap, let's move on to some more productive ground.
How should the body of Christ (all true Christians, regardless of their stance on this debate) repond to people who haven't been tithing at 10% and fell guilty about it, due to teachings they have received? How should we respond to people who have been tithing at 10% and are full of resentment about it because they think they see the funds being misused?
We've seen a certain number of such people in this forum, including a few who are carrying some anger at money grubbing preachers who own two cars, and the like. In addition to this forum, most of us probably run into such people face to face. I've run into a handful of people who give this explanation when asked why they don't go to church.
One approach might be to convict them of sin, get them to pony up the required 10%, and overhaul their attitudes so they won't be angry about it. Another approach might be to convince them that Christ intends His followers to be free. That means free from guilt, and it also means free from intimidation by teachers, pastors, elders, and other church bigwigs. (Please note that I am NOT saying that there shouldn't BE teachers, pastors, and elders. Just that people shouldn't be intimidated by them).
As you can tell, I favor the second approach. I don't think Christ wants His children to live lives full of guilt or anger. And I don't think making budget is worth intimidating the flock.
It's important to note, in this regard, that almost all the people suffering guilt and/or anger about tithing have issues with PEOPLE, and not with God! That's important because if there is anything followers are to be about it's repairing vertical relationships with God and horizontal relationships with people. Actually, it's more like participating on God's repair of those relationships, but that's a whole other discussion.
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/29/2009 10:15:24 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6343
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From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
How should the body of Christ (all true Christians, regardless of their stance on this debate) repond to people who haven't been tithing at 10% and fell guilty about it, due to teachings they have received?
As trite as this may sound, my sincere advice would be to get alone, search the scriptures, and ask God to reveal His will for you on the subject.
The guilt and/or fear aspect should spur one on to settle the matter because anything not done in faith is sin.
I'm feel the NT reveals that if I perceive something to be right and I do not do it or if I think something is wrong and I do it, then it is counted as sin in God's sight. This is because I "think" I'm choosing to willfully sin even if it's not wrong for another human alive on planet earth. Intentions really matter.
Therefore, it is paramount that one studies the scripture so their conscience is clear on how they handle their money.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/29/2009 11:03:43 AM
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P31W
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quote:
How should the body of Christ (all true Christians, regardless of their stance on this debate) repond to people who haven't been tithing at 10% and fell guilty about it, due to teachings they have received?
Tell them to find out if their guilt is because of what someone is teaching or because it's the Holy Spirit directing them.
I have had many many teachers /preachers over my lifetime. When they preach/teach I don't tend to feel "guilty" about what they are saying unless it's the Holy Spirit working in my life to help me change what I am doing or what my motives are. When I honestly believe that I am directly in God's will guilt does not pop up in my life.
quote:
How should we respond to people who have been tithing at 10% and are full of resentment about it because they think they see the funds being misused?
The money we give it to God "through" our chruch first. If you don't like how the money is spent there are a few ways to exmaine the situation.
First ask yourself if God is trying to help you realize that "you" don't get to own the money given to Him and maybe you need to learn to work with others and cooperate. Part of learning how to be the body is about not always wanting our own way and things done how "we" believe they are to be done.
The second way is to get involved in the church finances and ministry and have some input into how the money is used. (for Peet's sake don't be a pew warmer and complain about how the money is spent if you are not working in the ministries)
If that is not possible then find another Chruch were people are using the money in the way you believe God would have it used. We live in America. We have thousands of chruches in this nation and most will have less than 200 people in their congregation on Sunday morning. Most have building that are not new and are in need of repair. Most have people who even when they give a tithe could not pay a pastor much more than they earn themselves on average.
quote:
It's important to note, in this regard, that almost all the people suffering guilt and/or anger about tithing have issues with PEOPLE, and not with God!
That is your opinion and I don't believe that you can look into anyone's heart to say this is true, much less make the claim that "most all".
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/29/2009 6:59:59 PM
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yankeedoodle
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A generation that has gone far astray has not only teachers accountable, but also those all too willing to go astray. The Jews were punished, not just for those actively persecuting Jesus, but also sins of omission. Sin and accountabilty are not solely reserved for active sinners/iniquity. Be not the salt that has lost its savour, you can get trampled that way.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/30/2009 1:26:01 PM
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OldJoe
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Jesus was highly critical of the teachers, etc in saying "you travel miles for a convert and then when you get one you give them a burden beyond what they can carry".
Paul wrote that a person not taking care of their family is worse than an infidel.
The teaching is this and any challengers to this teaching I will suggest is not representing God:
Tithing is correct
Teaching on tithing should be restricted to business meetings and should never be raised before the congregation. (God will teach individuals as required)
It is wrong to tell a new convert, a young person with a family, families in a position where they are just getting by, to tithe. In their case taking care of their family may be tithing unto God.
God rewards the cheerful giver beyond what we can fathom. The results may be years down the road but the rewards will be there.
God will give each and every Christian the opportunity to be obedient by giving to a specific purpose at a specific time. This is for us to know our own heart as God already knows it. If we are obedient on those occasions, God will reward the cheerful giver beyond measure.
If finances are tight for an individual, they should take care of the "needs" of their family first and then give to the Church. (He who does not take care of his family is worse than an infidel.)
The only teaching within the congregation should be limited to the teaching of Paul when he suggested a person set aside, at the start of the week, an amount which seems right to them (and we should pray they seek the guidance of God for their individual circumstance. Again, he who does not take care of his family is worse than an infidel).
Do not drive people away by pestering for giving. This is repulsive in the eyes of God. "Woe to you . . . . . .".
Personally,
I would rather minister from a run down shed than but financial burdens on people.
Paul, in his letters to Timothy and Titus, warned of those who work the Gospel for their own financial gain.
If you are in the ministry, look at how to work with what you receive rather than asking for more. God is the almighty and God will fill the coffers as required. We in the ministry do not have to ask for giving; and by laying out the finances of the Church at business meetings - this opens the door enough for God to minister to the hearts of the congregation on our behalf
To those who read this post: Pray on what you have read and then see if in your heart you believe this was not a message given me by God. I am not planning on responding to comments as frivolous discussions are not to the glory of God. (See the letters to Timothy and Titus)
Lord God and Heavenly Father, please minister to the hearts of those who read this post. May they know and truth and may the truth set them free.
Blessings in the name of Jesus
Old Joe - - - long retired
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/30/2009 1:32:05 PM
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P31W
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First I learned about tithing by watching and asking questions of my parents and grandparents. They lived their faith before me and taught me to tithe. (one dime out of each dollar I got in allowance, earned or gifts - no calculator required)
This was confirmed by one of my favorite Sunday School teachers a woman who sold shoes for a living and ended up still teaching today...some 60 years of teaching the Lord's word.
I also learned a "little bit" about tithing from the pastor when he would preach on stewardship.
quote:
The teaching is this and any challengers to this teaching I will suggest is not representing God:
ROFL
< Message edited by P31W -- 1/30/2009 1:58:00 PM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/30/2009 1:58:50 PM
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Strider33
Posts: 361
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OldJoe
Jesus was highly critical of the teachers, etc in saying "you travel miles for a convert and then when you get one you give them a burden beyond what they can carry".
Paul wrote that a person not taking care of their family is worse than an infidel.
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To those who read this post: Pray on what you have read and then see if in your heart you believe this was not a message given me by God. I am not planning on responding to comments as frivolous discussions are not to the glory of God. (See the letters to Timothy and Titus)
Lord God and Heavenly Father, please minister to the hearts of those who read this post. May they know and truth and may the truth set them free.
Blessings in the name of Jesus
Old Joe - - - long retired
Amen brother!
I know you weren't planning on responding, but I couldn't help adding my amen to your comments.
My work here is almost done.
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/30/2009 2:02:47 PM
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Strider33
Posts: 361
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
The second way is to get involved in the church finances and ministry and have some input into how the money is used. (for Peet's sake don't be a pew warmer and complain about how the money is spent if you are not working in the ministries)
I've made this comment to several poeple who have voiced complaints here. Another point where we agree.
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/30/2009 2:05:35 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2134
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Strider,
Do you realize that Ole Joe has set himself up in the way you are against preachers setting themself up?
quote:
The teaching is this and any challengers to this teaching I will suggest is not representing God:
BTW, When someone sets themself up in this type of way I don't pay much attention to anything they have to say. Even if it's followed by "tithing is correct"......ROFL then says we are not to teach it.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/30/2009 2:11:23 PM
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Strider33
Posts: 361
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
It's important to note, in this regard, that almost all the people suffering guilt and/or anger about tithing have issues with PEOPLE, and not with God!
That is your opinion and I don't believe that you can look into anyone's heart to say this is true, much less make the claim that "most all".
My observation is based on the words those people have used to express their suffering. No special insight is required. And most all of them are specific in the way they direct their complaint. And it's directed towards people.
In an online forum, the words are all we have to go on. In a face to face encounter, we can keep a close eye on tone and body language to see a little bit below the surface.
I don't claim any supernatural gift for knowing what's going on in anyone's heart. But I do claim to have pretty good people to people skills in figuring out what people's issues are.
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 1/30/2009 2:15:18 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2134
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Strider,
You missed it. You missed it.
You agreeded with someone who says that if you don't agree with their teaching you are not representing God.
Isn't that the type of preacher that most of these people are angry with? You gave him comments an AMEN.
"The teaching is this and any challengers to this teaching I will suggest is not representing God:
You 'chose" the people you wanted to agree with. You hand picked them because he said what you wanted to hear..... Even if they use the same "tactics" of the pastors whom you claimed harmed so many people.
< Message edited by P31W -- 1/30/2009 2:30:25 PM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/2/2009 1:19:20 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
The only teaching within the congregation should be limited to the teaching of Paul when he suggested a person set aside, at the start of the week, an amount which seems right to them (and we should pray they seek the guidance of God for their individual circumstance.
Scripture tells me that the teachings of Jesus are Sound Doctrine.
1 Timothy 6
3 If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4 he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5 and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9 People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
Matt. 28: 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
Matthew 23
23 "How terrible it will be for you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest part of your income, but you ignore the important things of the law – justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but you should not leave undone the more important things.
The passages you are talking about deal with offerings that Paul didn't get a cut of, nor the poor in their area, or the elders or the widows in their congregation who were "completely dependant" upon the chairty of the church for food. The offering Paul was talking about went to "strangers" who were Christians in another area. This is a "limited offering" that had a "deadline" to it. This was a "free will offering" that they "said" they would give. Paul is telling them to put their money where their mouth is so that "he" and "they" don't look like fools. (go back to chapter 8 and read it in the full context - you will find Paul wants to compare their love to the love of those who gave from their extreme poverty - they were pretty much "Beggers")
quote:
Again, he who does not take care of his family is worse than an infidel).
Again "context" matters. This sentence was used in teaching the chruch about "who" was to be put on the support system of the Chruch. This is talking about people who don't support their parents, grandparents or others in their family who are in need of assistance. (it was not speaking of our children - that is pretty much a "given" in scripture that we will provide for our Children) God commaned for "us" the Chruch to provide for our own widows and those who have no family to help them.
< Message edited by P31W -- 2/3/2009 8:27:38 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/7/2009 6:49:34 AM
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brotherjohnny
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NT Tithing is 100% Apostate
Tithing is Unscriptural Under the New Covenant
[A Scriptural Exposition on the Fraudulent Fleecing of the Flock]
Since first posting this tithing paper on bible-truths.com, we have had hundreds of thousands of visitors seeking information on this topic. Many have written me personally thanking me for freeing them from this illegal and abusive practice of the Church. I have also received emails from some who are sure that tithing is a bonafide legal obligation for members of the New Testament Christian Church.
Objections to my paper range from simply quoting the prophet Malachi sent to the priests and nation of Israel: "Wherein have we robbed Thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse…." While others who can find absolutely no Scriptural authority for Christians to tithe, invent clever little doctrines like this:
"Tithing was a form of worship to God, and since we still worship God, we must still tithe."
I will answer this one in one sentence: Since burnt offerings were a form of worshiping God, and since we still worship God, must we still offer burnt offerings to God? ... Ridiculous.
Part II of this paper covers the Malachi prophecy more thoroughly as it concerns the subject of tithing. http://www.bible-truths.com/tithing.html
Tithing and Clergy Salaries
by Frank Viola
Article copied exactly as printed from source:
http://www.ptmin.org/tithing.htm
http://prayershack.freeservers.com/article_Tithing-and-Clergy-Salaries.html
Tithing Today:
God's Plan or Designs of Man?
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/tithing.html
Tithing Resource Quotes
FORWARD / INTRODUCTION
By David Allen Yeubanks (2001)
http://prayershack.freeservers.com/tithing/intro.html
29. Secular History of Tithing
http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id15.html
STUDY REFERENCES & QUOTES {{{Please realy check this one out}}}
(Subject: Tithing)
http://prayershack.freeservers.com/tithing/
{You just have to check this one out}
Bruce White: Jewish and Gentiles Tithed in the Church?
Bruce White Madison Church of Christ: Tithing is a common thing in the first century church. Both Jewish Christians and Gentileconverts practiced tithing. Now, tithing simply refers to 10 percent of your money, property, wealth, or crops, whatever. http://www.piney.com/ChTitheChristian.html
Tithing as taught today is modified and NOT the same as Biblical tithing.
God gave the tithes to the Levites as an inheritance in return for their service and to compensate them for having no personal inheritance of land. The Levites gave tithes to the Priests from the tithes they received.
Christianity has no agrarian system, no Levites and every Christian is now a priest, the temple and co-workers with Christ. [2 Peter 2:5 & 9, Rev. 1:6, 5:10, 20:6] Every Jew was required by the Levitical law to pay three tithes of his property:
(1) one tithe for the Levites;
(2) one for the use of the temple and the great feasts; and
(3) one for the poor of the land. [Numbers 18, Deuteronomy 14]
Given the above, it is clear that any church mandating tithes should be spending AT LEAST ONE THIRD of their income on the poor since that is what was required under mandated law tithing.
How many churches come close to this? I know of none. Yet it is not uncommon for some ministers to call their parishioners thieves if they don't tithe. It's all of the law or none of it. http://richardwaynegarganta.com/tithing.htm
Peace in Messiah
Brotherjohnny 
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/9/2009 8:43:28 AM
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P31W
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Below is your first "actual" teaching on the matter. I saw no reason to read beyond this first statment of yours because I knew the Bible said otherwise.
quote:
THEIR IS NO SUCH THING AS NT TITHING POINT BLANK!!! The 39 books of the {{{old covenant}}} was strictly for the Jews which practiced Judaism, the 27 books of the NT is under a {{{NEW COVENANT}}} which is followed by NT Blood bought Christians or messianic followers of Messiah.
You cannot possibly be under both covenants at the same time your either under the old covenant practicing Judaism or your under the NEW BLOOD BOUGHT COVENANT which never once practiced tithing
What "you teach"
Now what the Bible says:
Acts
20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality." 26 The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them
____(the time of this is about 20? years after the resurrection)
BTW the Old Covenat was not "strictly for the Jews" either. Scripture tells us that as well.
< Message edited by P31W -- 2/9/2009 9:31:02 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/9/2009 9:34:08 AM
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jbbaab44
Posts: 616
Joined: 2/6/2006
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What the bible says as well.
1 Cor. 3:17 "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. "
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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