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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/9/2009 9:57:09 AM
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P31W
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quote:
1 Cor. 3:17 "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. "
No, this is what it says,
17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/9/2009 10:02:04 AM
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jbbaab44
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*Correction* This is what the bible says in 2 Cor. 3:17
"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."
_____________________________
Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/9/2009 10:04:32 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2134
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Not to do wrong.
1 John 3:4-10
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/10/2009 11:56:58 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6344
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: brotherjohnny
NT Tithing is 100% Apostate
Dear Johnny, the Lord Jesus told me to tithe of my income for His Kingdom's work about 30 years ago. So I purposed in my heart to give at least 10% of my gross income back to the One that provided it and I have been faithful to do so since beginning.
Which of us is apostate, Jesus who told me or me for obeying Him?
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/18/2009 1:49:00 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1552
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Which of us is apostate, Jesus who told me or me for obeying Him?
Where in Scripture does JESUS tell us to tithe?
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/18/2009 1:53:24 PM
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Strider33
Posts: 362
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Below is your first "actual" teaching on the matter. I saw no reason to read beyond this first statment of yours because I knew the Bible said otherwise.
quote:
THEIR IS NO SUCH THING AS NT TITHING POINT BLANK!!! The 39 books of the {{{old covenant}}} was strictly for the Jews which practiced Judaism, the 27 books of the NT is under a {{{NEW COVENANT}}} which is followed by NT Blood bought Christians or messianic followers of Messiah.
You cannot possibly be under both covenants at the same time your either under the old covenant practicing Judaism or your under the NEW BLOOD BOUGHT COVENANT which never once practiced tithing
What "you teach"
Now what the Bible says:
Acts
20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality." 26 The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them
____(the time of this is about 20? years after the resurrection)
BTW the Old Covenat was not "strictly for the Jews" either. Scripture tells us that as well.
Is your head shaved?
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/18/2009 1:57:20 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6344
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Which of us is apostate, Jesus who told me or me for obeying Him?
Where in Scripture does JESUS tell us to tithe?
That's all out of proportion to what I said in response to another post. Looks like a nerve of some sort was hit, albeit unintentionally. Let me try once more.
JESUS told ME to tithe of MY income for HIS Kingdom's work about 30 years ago. So I purposed in MY heart to give at least 10% of MY gross income back to the One that provided it and I have been faithful to do so since beginning.
Gotta problem with that, then please take it up with Him, okay?
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/18/2009 7:16:54 PM
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prophet
Posts: 689
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Cant see any apostasy in wanting to tithe....but i do see wrong teachings in using OT tithing teachings on NT believers
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Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/19/2009 9:13:55 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2134
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quote:
Is your head shaved?
Strider,
So you agree with him or not?
Here is the quote I am asking you about. "THEIR IS NO SUCH THING AS NT TITHING POINT BLANK!!! "
That is "if" you are interested in discussing the "fact" of the matter. 
________
Srtider,
Do you also have a problem with me teaching that the Bible says we are to avoid surety? NO NEW TESTAMENT doctrine covers that?
I want to see how "consistant" you are in your beliefs.
< Message edited by P31W -- 2/19/2009 9:20:42 AM >
_____________________________
“Tolerance is the virture of the man with no convictions.” G.K. Chesterton
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/19/2009 9:16:46 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2134
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quote:
Cant see any apostasy in wanting to tithe....but i do see wrong teachings in using OT tithing teachings on NT believers
I agree! I've never seen however anyone teach the "tithing laws" to believers as a command to obey.
I do however teach the "laws" to people, then again I teach the "entire bible to people". I also teach the "tithe principle" to people because it's biblical. Just as I teach about not violating the principle of "surety" that has SAVED many a family from financial devistation.
God is soooo good.
Do you believe I am an apostate for teaching the "Old Testament" surety principle? YOU MUST BE> "if" you are consistant in your beliefs.
_____________________________
“Tolerance is the virture of the man with no convictions.” G.K. Chesterton
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/19/2009 9:23:40 AM
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Strider33
Posts: 362
Joined: 4/24/2008
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P31W,
First tell me if your head is shaved. Is that a "biblical principle" or not? If not, why not?
Then we can get back to the main discussion.
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/19/2009 9:57:30 AM
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Strider33
Posts: 362
Joined: 4/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Which of us is apostate, Jesus who told me or me for obeying Him?
Where in Scripture does JESUS tell us to tithe?
That's all out of proportion to what I said in response to another post. Looks like a nerve of some sort was hit, albeit unintentionally. Let me try once more.
JESUS told ME to tithe of MY income for HIS Kingdom's work about 30 years ago. So I purposed in MY heart to give at least 10% of MY gross income back to the One that provided it and I have been faithful to do so since beginning.
Gotta problem with that, then please take it up with Him, okay?
A nerve was hit alright, but the nerve was not Johnny's. I think that reading that last line of the above makes it clear whose nerve was hit.
The question of where in scripture it says the NT believers are to tithe is central to this one stop thread.
The question of whether Jesus, in private revelation to you, has placed a burden on you that He has not placed on the rest of us is interesting, but it's not central to the thread.
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/19/2009 10:27:29 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6344
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
The question of whether Jesus, in private revelation to you, has placed a burden on you that He has not placed on the rest of us is interesting, but it's not central to the thread.
But it was an appropriate answer to the person I first addressed it to, a person that seems to have gotten himself sidelined for derrogatory language in another thread. The knee-jerks have thus far come from others about my reponse to him.
At one point in this long thread, both sides were willing to agree that the matter of giving is between the Lord and themselves. Now the stance seems to be swinging in the other dirrection - no Christian should tithe because it's foolish/bad/wrong/legalistic no matter what.
Or are you defending the position of "brotherjohnny" that any believer is "apostate" simply because they tithe?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/19/2009 11:15:02 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2134
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Strider,
I am not a "game player". I am a blunt in your face person. So I am going to be blunt with what I believe it the reason people don't have a problem with me teaching the principle of surety, debt, planning, saving and co-signing.
Before I came here many of us were at Crown Financial Ministries - on their forum;
No one ever complained about our teaching these principles that they realized could "benefit them in a financial way". But we had several complain (not many) when we taught about the tithe principle.
ROFL.
Principles derived in the same fashion/manner/way yet the "one" (of many) that demanded something of them was the ONLY one they complained about.
For me it's extremely telling. For someone to want to know all about how to apply the princples of surety, savings, debt, etc.....(grow their net worth, make then financially sound and strong) but when you go into teaching them to "give back to God" they go bonkers.
< Message edited by P31W -- 2/19/2009 11:21:44 AM >
_____________________________
“Tolerance is the virture of the man with no convictions.” G.K. Chesterton
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/19/2009 12:10:58 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6344
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
For me it's extremely telling. For someone to want to know all about how to apply the princples of surety, savings, debt, etc.....(grow their net worth, make then financially sound and strong) but when you go into teaching them to "give back to God" they go bonkers.
Ironic too that people tend to agree that we need to be disciplined as Christians in all areas of outr life - even in finances - except in the area of giving.
Then one becomes "apostate" for even offering a way to be disciplined in giving. Go figure.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/19/2009 1:30:52 PM
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Strider33
Posts: 362
Joined: 4/24/2008
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
The question of whether Jesus, in private revelation to you, has placed a burden on you that He has not placed on the rest of us is interesting, but it's not central to the thread.
But it was an appropriate answer to the person I first addressed it to, a person that seems to have gotten himself sidelined for derrogatory language in another thread. The knee-jerks have thus far come from others about my reponse to him.
At one point in this long thread, both sides were willing to agree that the matter of giving is between the Lord and themselves. Now the stance seems to be swinging in the other dirrection - no Christian should tithe because it's foolish/bad/wrong/legalistic no matter what.
Or are you defending the position of "brotherjohnny" that any believer is "apostate" simply because they tithe?
No. I don't believe the word "apostate" is approriate in the context of this discussion. We are discussing an issue about which genuine Christians hold quite different views.
The question of "where in Scripture does JESUS tell us to tithe?" is central to the thread. It's not a knee-jerk response. ( I would not have used all caps, but that's minor.)
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/19/2009 3:14:14 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6344
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From: Dothan, AL
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I've read that exchange several times. I think the post of "brotherjohnny" was way out of line and Soxfan's snippet was intentionally out of context to the point I was addressing. And your continuing to make an issue out of it looks a bit strange.
If you really want to move on, then let's. But I'd like something clarified that seems developing in the tone of recent posts:
Is the leading of the Holy Spirit in the matter of giving off the table now - do we have to establish dogma either for or against any disciplined giving for believers?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/19/2009 8:25:35 PM
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prophet
Posts: 689
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
I agree! I've never seen however anyone teach the "tithing laws" to believers as a command to obey.
I do however teach the "laws" to people, then again I teach the "entire bible to people". I also teach the "tithe principle" to people because it's biblical. Just as I teach about not violating the principle of "surety" that has SAVED many a family from financial devistation.
The whole of scriptures is to be taught. Thats good. Tithe as a principle is good. However, theres a thin line diviidng principle and law. Many a teachers teach it as law, refering to all the blah blahs about blessing and curses tied to the law of tithing. This is false teaching.
God is soooo good.
Do you believe I am an apostate for teaching the "Old Testament" surety principle? YOU MUST BE> "if" you are consistant in your beliefs.
Whats your surety teaching before i make up my mind whether you are apostate or not?
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/19/2009 11:44:35 PM
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Strider33
Posts: 362
Joined: 4/24/2008
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
I've read that exchange several times. I think the post of "brotherjohnny" was way out of line and Soxfan's snippet was intentionally out of context to the point I was addressing. And your continuing to make an issue out of it looks a bit strange.
If you really want to move on, then let's. But I'd like something clarified that seems developing in the tone of recent posts:
Is the leading of the Holy Spirit in the matter of giving off the table now - do we have to establish dogma either for or against any disciplined giving for believers?
The leading of the Holy Spirit in the matter of giving is definitely not off the table (if I understand that term correctly). It is what I have been proposing consistently.
I don't think Soxfan's response was out of context at all. I took it as trying to return the discussion to the central theme of the one stop thread.
You've made your point. You've made it several times. Now let some other people make their points. One of the points is to raise the question of what scripture says about the tithe and the New Convenant.
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/20/2009 8:02:44 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6344
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
You've made your point. You've made it several times. Now let some other people make their points.
Ditto, ditto, ditto.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/20/2009 8:50:45 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2134
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quote:
Many a teachers teach it as law
The ONLY ones I know who do that are people on "this forum" who are gentiles yet believe they are to obey the Jewish law inorder to shame the Jews.
Even "those" people don't tithe because they know the tithe "law" (as in those interested in obeying the "letter of the law and not the spirit of the law) according to the law because to tithe according to the law they realize it's tied to a certain peice of property. "IF" they teach, you live in Isreal AND you are a Jew then you are to tithe.
Anyone who teaches it as "law" don't know their bible if they teach it was a law given to American citizens.
What you described about the blessings and curses is NOT teaching the law. It's stupid teaching. ROFL
quote:
Whats your surety teaching before i make up my mind whether you are apostate or not?
Surety is the biblical principle of taking on a debt willingly without a "sure" way to pay for it. God warned us NOT to do this. One reason is for our own personal security and another is because we become a "slave" to the borrower and God wants His people to be free to do and go where he tells them to. To give as "he directs". We also presume on the goodness of God when we voilate this principle because none of us knows what tomorrow holds. It's also tied in with making our "yes mean yes and our no mean no"......ties to our witness and honesty.....when we say one thing and cannot fufill it we bring shame on God's name when we try to witness or call ourselves a Christian. More times than not when we willingly go into surety we are not content or grateful for what God "has" blessed us with. We are falling into selfishness, discontentment and greed or we are not willing to 'wait on the Lord".
Proverbs 22
26 Do not be a man who strikes hands in pledge or puts up security for debts; 27 if you lack the means to pay, your very bed will be snatched from under you.
< Message edited by P31W -- 2/20/2009 11:05:03 AM >
_____________________________
“Tolerance is the virture of the man with no convictions.” G.K. Chesterton
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/20/2009 11:06:15 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/13/2005
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Old Testament law forbids a father from taking his daughter to be his wife. (even if the mother is dead)
That is "old Testament law'.
Our American law contains a ton of the OT laws believe it or not.
Should we "strike down" that law?
If we had no such law would be have a problem with the Chruch teaching this is not God's will?
_____________________________
“Tolerance is the virture of the man with no convictions.” G.K. Chesterton
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 4/16/2009 8:20:23 AM
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KathrynCLang
Posts: 7
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Tithes and Offerings are a touchy subject because we are selfish :D It's the same reason some of us struggle with serving others, not eating when we are not hungry, or drinking too much (or what ever might be the issue in our lives).
Ultimately, tithes are a tool to train us to turn over to God what God has provided for our lives and according to the Old Testament that should be 10% of everything brought into the home. The Offerings are also a tool to remind us that what we have comes from God no matter how it might have gotten to us and the Offerings were done for specific situations (usually associated with First Fruits).
We are no longer subject to the law but the New Testament does tell us to give EVERYTHING to God. In the end, none of it (the house, the cars, the money and even the family) are not ours. We are simply called to be stewards over the Master's belongings. If the Master asks for His stuff then who am I to deny that?
_____________________________
Live a life of joy and peace
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 4/16/2009 9:23:13 AM
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sunofone
Posts: 485
Joined: 10/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KathrynCLang
Tithes and Offerings are a touchy subject because we are selfish :D It's the same reason some of us struggle with serving others, not eating when we are not hungry, or drinking too much (or what ever might be the issue in our lives).
Ultimately, tithes are a tool to train us to turn over to God what God has provided for our lives and according to the Old Testament that should be 10% of everything brought into the home. The Offerings are also a tool to remind us that what we have comes from God no matter how it might have gotten to us and the Offerings were done for specific situations (usually associated with First Fruits).
We are no longer subject to the law but the New Testament does tell us to give EVERYTHING to God. In the end, none of it (the house, the cars, the money and even the family) are not ours. We are simply called to be stewards over the Master's belongings. If the Master asks for His stuff then who am I to deny that?
I hear you Sister,however it's dangerous to deal with this issues with broad sweeping strokes,or generalizations.
People are in bondage over this issue,their relationship with God is tied to this issue.With that in mind it is vitally important that we bring clarity to this topic with binding scriptural authority.
Teaching tithing for commandment on the New Covenant believer is flat out wrong.There is no valid scriptural witness to do so.
We are nowhere commanded to continue an outdated principle or obligatory giving of a tithe.We are as you have stated required to be stewards over what God puts in our possession,it all belongs to him.We should be directed by his Spirit as to what to give and where to give,and we are accountable to God how we spend every penny of what God puts in our hands.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 4/16/2009 10:30:55 AM
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Strider33
Posts: 362
Joined: 4/24/2008
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Old Testament law forbids a father from taking his daughter to be his wife. (even if the mother is dead)
That is "old Testament law'.
Our American law contains a ton of the OT laws believe it or not.
Should we "strike down" that law?
If we had no such law would be have a problem with the Chruch teaching this is not God's will?
There's no logic in this comment.
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
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