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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 7/2/2008 11:02:35 PM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
You see here is the problem, you guys don't even have your facts straight. Someone else just said the universe is 4.6 billion, not 14 billion years old. You guys should get your stories straight.
I don't know which post you saw that in (not willing to sift through 12 pages to find it), but you should double-check whether the poster actually said "universe" and not "earth" or "solar system". The universe is close to 14 billion years old. It is the solar system which is 4.6 billion years old.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 7/2/2008 11:05:17 PM
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hellohellohi
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yes, i think the poster was saying the age of teh earth was 4.6 billion years, though at one time it was thought to be a bit younger based on other dating techniques, I presume
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 7/2/2008 11:08:09 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
So where do the scriptures say we evolved. I think it clearly states God formed us from the dust of the earth. The possibility that "most " Christians believe in evolution just may go to show the state of the church and trying to appease everyone like they are politicians. We wouldn't want to seem intolerant now would we.
Most Christians accept evolution because they believe God really created a real world which is itself (as scripture testifies) a revelation to all humanity, believer and unbeliever alike.
Most Christians accept evolution because they agree with Galileo's observation that the God who endowed us with sense and reason did not intend for those gifts to go unused.
Most Christians accept evolution because Jesus commanded us, among other things, to worship God with all our mind.
Most Christians accept evolution because God is not a God of confusion, but of order and they believe that order is expressed in the order of nature.
Take all of the above along with the evidence that evolution happens and has happened for as long as there has been life on earth and accepting evolution is the only stance compatible with our profession of faith in "the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth".
Only an unimaginative literalism could find contradictions between scripture and evolution.
That is a ridiculous statement, and I would say by the responses on just this forum, that "Most"Christians do not believe in evolution.
"7 Then the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man’s nostrils, and the man became a living person.", how does this fit with evolution.
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 7/2/2008 11:12:16 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
You see here is the problem, you guys don't even have your facts straight. Someone else just said the universe is 4.6 billion, not 14 billion years old. You guys should get your stories straight.
I don't know which post you saw that in (not willing to sift through 12 pages to find it), but you should double-check whether the poster actually said "universe" and not "earth" or "solar system". The universe is close to 14 billion years old. It is the solar system which is 4.6 billion years old.
Oh I see, that most definitely explains it. So how do we know the date of the beginning of the universe.
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 7/2/2008 11:13:21 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
yes, i think the poster was saying the age of teh earth was 4.6 billion years, though at one time it was thought to be a bit younger based on other dating techniques, I presume
actually that post was not in this thread, but a different thread altogether.
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 7/2/2008 11:16:59 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
Only an unimaginative literalism could find contradictions between scripture and evolution.
Since when are we supposed to take literal statements non literally, and add our own imagination to them? We are supposed to take the literal statements of the bible literally. I see no way around that.
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 7/2/2008 11:21:52 PM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
That is a ridiculous statement, and I would say by the responses on just this forum, that "Most"Christians do not believe in evolution.
This forum is hardly representative of the global church.
quote:
"7 Then the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man’s nostrils, and the man became a living person.", how does this fit with evolution.
It's a great image. God the potter making humanity out of clay. We find it often in scripture. That we are made of the same substance as the earth, that we live, that we are made by God, nothing in the theory of evolution contradicts this.
But it is ridiculous to literalize it as if God, like a child playing in the mud, actually made a man this way.
It is a wonderful story told to teach us about God and ourselves and the earth we inhabit in a way that is comprehensible through many ages, no matter how the culture and level of information changes.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 7/2/2008 11:31:06 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
That is a ridiculous statement, and I would say by the responses on just this forum, that "Most"Christians do not believe in evolution.
quote:
This forum is hardly representative of the global church. Oh so you have poled the global church, and you know the minds of all fellow believers? I think not. Do not say most when you should just say I.
quote:
"7 Then the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man’s nostrils, and the man became a living person.", how does this fit with evolution.
It's a great image. God the potter making humanity out of clay. We find it often in scripture. That we are made of the same substance as the earth, that we live, that we are made by God, nothing in the theory of evolution contradicts this.
But it is ridiculous to literalize it as if God, like a child playing in the mud, actually made a man this way.
It is a wonderful story told to teach us about God and ourselves and the earth we inhabit in a way that is comprehensible through many ages, no matter how the culture and level of information changes.
No it is ridiculous to try and say that is not a literal passage, and try to portray mans feeble attempt at describing the beginning of man as the way God created man. It is ridiculous to even be having this discussion with a believer. I don't see how it is possible for a mere person to add to the word of God. It says what it says, and the account has been given.
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 7/3/2008 1:22:14 AM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
No it is ridiculous to try and say that is not a literal passage,
Why? To me and to many other Christians, the figurative nature of this text is self-evident. Why would anyone take it literally without some severe brainwashing? What would be the point of literalizing it?
quote:
Oh so you have poled the global church, and you know the minds of all fellow believers? I think not. Do not say most when you should just say I.
Not personally, but it is well-known that outside the US, there are only very small pockets of Christians who disclaim evolution. Evolution is considered non-problematic in the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and most Protestant churches.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 7/3/2008 1:41:04 AM
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EcclesFruitcake
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
...So how do we know the date of the beginning of the universe.
Rather, how do we know the age of the universe?
If we start with the obvious notion that the universe is at least as old as its contents we can fathom minimum limiting ages. For example the universe is at least as old as you or I, or more usefully at least as old as our solar system.
This age can be established via radioactive dating of rocks from the geologically inactive moon or from meteorites. Elements such as uranium-235/238 or rubidium-87 are sought as they have sufficiently long half-lives to measure the appropriate ages. Moon rocks range from around 3.3billion to 4.4billion years while the oldest meteorites are 4.6 billion years old.
To find older objects we have to look further afield. Globular star clusters contain the most ancient reliably dated entities. These GSCs are groups of several thousand to a million stars generally concentrated toward the centre of a galaxy. Their stars consist of a much lower proportion of heavy elements than stars such as the Sun nearer the periphery. This enables us to infer their greater age as the heavy elements are created by a process called nucleosynthesis which occurs when a star goes supernova.
Only stars that have a very long lifespan prevail within a globular cluster as the more massive relatively volatile stars will have gone supernova.
The rate at which stars of different mass burn out is known and therefore by looking for the most massive stars which have yet to burn out in a globular cluster determines the age of a cluster.
The dated clusters are about 11-14 billion years old.
A completely separate way of dating the universe is based on the expansion of the universe. All the galaxies in the universe are moving away from eachother and by extrapolating their expansion backwards in time the conclusion is the conditions of what we know as the big bang. An estimate of when this event occured is derived via the hubble constant (km/s/Mpc) which proportionates distance and speed between galaxies (the rate at which the galaxies recede).
The units km and Mpc are both lengths so they cancel out, leaving us with a value "per second".
Now.
1. Distance = Speed*Time
Length = (Length/Second)*Second
2. Speed = Hubbles Constant*Distance
Length/Second = (1/Second)*Length
Above is the equation for the expanding universe,
Rearranging:
Distance = Speed/Hubbles Constant
Length=(Length/Second)/(1/Second)
Which is the same units as '1.' Therefore the age of the universe is the inverse of the Hubble constant.
This gives 13.6 billion years using the current value of hubbles constant of 72km/s/Mpc.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 7/3/2008 2:01:57 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Only an unimaginative literalism could find contradictions between scripture and evolution. Well, here it is, folks, proof that gluadys and the theo-evo crowd freely admit that it demands imagination to show any hint of evolution in the Bible. Thank you for this long overdue admission that proper hermeneutics is based on reading the text, NOT imagining fairy tales of so-called science somehow hidden between the lines!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 7/3/2008 7:37:15 AM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Only an unimaginative literalism could find contradictions between scripture and evolution. Well, here it is, folks, proof that gluadys and the theo-evo crowd freely admit that it demands imagination to show any hint of evolution in the Bible. Thank you for this long overdue admission that proper hermeneutics is based on reading the text, NOT imagining fairy tales of so-called science somehow hidden between the lines!
I have never claimed that evolution is found in the bible. No more than gravity, atomic theory, germ theory or quantum mechanics.
I do claim that a plodding literalism misses the most important messages of the Bible and generates conflicts with science that are unnecessary. As Jesus told the literalists of his time: "You tithe dill and cumin, but miss the weightier matters." Or as Paul said: "The letter kills."
Literalism and associated anti-intellectualism is killing the church. A recent major study of attitudes toward Christians in the younger generation shows only 2% have a positive view of evangelicals.
I happen to think that evangelicals have a deep, rich heritage that is worth preserving and much needed in the world today. But we need the kind of evangelicals we had in the 19th century who could look beyond the letter of the text and say: nevertheless slavery is wrong. We need the sort of evangelicals who can stop focusing on what not to do and start focusing on what we need to do. We need evangelicals who are not afraid of knowledge, who know that nothing in God's world can lead away from God.
We need a hermeneutic that understands the text of scripture as it was originally understood, not as it has become distorted by a literalism that mistakes it for science--a literalism that actually buys into the fundamentals of naturalistic philosophy and excludes God from nature, thus becoming more gnostic than Christian.
Literalism is a drag on the church and a chain on the Spirit. Yes, I believe we need a holy, Spirit-led imagination. Not to put evolution in the bible. But to understand the real depth of the biblical message.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 7/3/2008 8:34:07 AM
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hellohellohi
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good post gluadys!
quote:
Literalism is a drag on the church and a chain on the Spirit. Yes, I believe we need a holy, Spirit-led imagination. Not to put evolution in the bible. But to understand the real depth of the biblical message.
However, I don't know quite what you meant by "nothing in God's world can leads us away from God." I am not sure the world really is "God's" in some sense. Obviously, things in the world can lead us away! But of course, you meant it within the context of the "natural world," which is what we have been talking about. However, where does the natural world stop and the "flesh" begin? Know what I mean?
One thing I do find perhaps good in the anti-evolutionist sentiment is that they are probably concerned with biology as ideology -- their thought on how to combat this is quite misguided and unproductive, but perhaps there is something good in the sentiment itself. yknow, "good intentions."
What do you think?
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 7/3/2008 9:44:45 AM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
One thing I do find perhaps good in the anti-evolutionist sentiment is that they are probably concerned with biology as ideology -- their thought on how to combat this is quite misguided and unproductive, but perhaps there is something good in the sentiment itself. yknow, "good intentions."
What do you think?
Biology is not ideology. That doesn't mean ideologues will not use the information for their purposes. They will use any information or misinformation they find useful.
But to oppose biology because it is sometimes used by ideologues one disagrees with is like opposing Christianity because idealogues have used it in unChristian ways.
It's called throwing out the baby with the bathwater. And that is not good, whatever the intent behind it.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 7/3/2008 10:36:32 AM
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hellohellohi
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quote:
Biology is not ideology. That doesn't mean ideologues will not use the information for their purposes.
Yeah, that's what I meant. I don't say science could be ideology if it stays true to its roots of inquiry. Scientists can easily become ideologues though -- and thus the lines get blurred.
I would be interested in your answer to my further question though, "Where does the natural or God-made world end, as you understand it, and "the flesh" begin?"
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 7/3/2008 10:57:33 AM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
quote:
Biology is not ideology. That doesn't mean ideologues will not use the information for their purposes.
Yeah, that's what I meant. I don't say science could be ideology if it stays true to its roots of inquiry. Scientists can easily become ideologues though -- and thus the lines get blurred.
I would be interested in your answer to my further question though, "Where does the natural or God-made world end, as you understand it, and "the flesh" begin?"
Perhaps with the exploitation of the natural world for personal and national greed. God tells the Israelites in the Promised Land (not while they are in the wilderness) that they are to live on the land like sojourners and not claim it as their own. The land belongs to God, and in God's sight they are all tenants. Likewise they are to welcome alien sojourners among them and treat them as they would citizens, "for you were strangers in Egypt". In God's eyes there is no such thing as an illegal alien.
We build so many walls, but Christ came to break them down.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 7/3/2008 12:21:49 PM
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Bettawrekonize
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
Yeah, that's what I meant. I don't say science could be ideology if it stays true to its roots of inquiry.
Which is exactly why the secular community needs to stop dishonestly discriminating against those that may question naturalism (from a scientific perspective). The secular community should give Creationists and ID advocates an equal opportunity at receiving research grants and publishing in peer review journals without discriminating against them simply for questioning naturalism. Science is open to inquiry and that includes inquiring into the possibility of Intelligent design and Creationism and the possibility that UCD and other naturalistic philosophies are wrong. It is difficult for me to take UCD and other naturalistic philosophies seriously from a scientific perspective when all they do to maintain themselves is dishonestly oppose academic freedom and open inquiry.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 7/3/2008 12:39:08 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
No it is ridiculous to try and say that is not a literal passage,
quote:
Why? To me and to many other Christians, the figurative nature of this text is self-evident. Why would anyone take it literally without some severe brainwashing? What would be the point of literalizing it? How exactly does the creative account of Genesis read figuratively?
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Oh so you have poled the global church, and you know the minds of all fellow believers? I think not. Do not say most when you should just say I.
quote:
Not personally, but it is well-known that outside the US, there are only very small pockets of Christians who disclaim evolution. Evolution is considered non-problematic in the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and most Protestant churches.
Oh I see, that makes it all make sense now. If the pope says evolution is fact, it must be, because he is infallible. The Catholic church also believes in purgatory, suicide is the only unforgivable sin, and that Mary is worthy of worship. So do these now become absolute fact amongst Christians?
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 7/3/2008 2:49:19 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
Oh I see, that makes it all make sense now. If the pope says evolution is fact, it must be, because he is infallible. The Catholic church also believes in purgatory, suicide is the only unforgivable sin, and that Mary is worthy of worship. So do these now become absolute fact amongst Christians?
1. In science, nothing becomes an absolute fact even for atheists.
2. Last I heard the opinion of the Pope does not determine teaching in EO or Protestant churches.
3. It is still a fact that most Christians do not find evolution problematic for their faith. Historically, even some of the founders of fundamentalism considered evolution probable.
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How exactly does the creative account of Genesis read figuratively?
In almost every way imaginable. Give this a gander, especially Part 2.
http://publicchristianity.org/genesgenre1.html
quote:
Are we supposed to water down the gospel and make it more appealing,
YEC is NOT the gospel. No, we are not to water down the gospel, but we are not to preach another "gospel" either. If people are to be offended by the gospel, let's be sure it is the gospel that offends them, not unnecessary pseudoscientific baggage masquerading as the gospel.
Instead of insisting on the literalism of 6 days, 6,000 years ago, let's defend the literalism of Jesus' teachings; teaching like "Sell all you have and give to the poor" "He who takes up the sword will die by the sword." "Love your enemies. " "Forgive our debts as we have forgiven our debtors." You won't have any difficulty rousing opposition. But you won't be turning anyone away with a false gospel either.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 7/3/2008 3:28:30 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 666
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From: the poconos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
Oh I see, that makes it all make sense now. If the pope says evolution is fact, it must be, because he is infallible. The Catholic church also believes in purgatory, suicide is the only unforgivable sin, and that Mary is worthy of worship. So do these now become absolute fact amongst Christians?
quote:
1. In science, nothing becomes an absolute fact even for atheists.
2. Last I heard the opinion of the Pope does not determine teaching in EO or Protestant churches.
3. It is still a fact that most Christians do not find evolution problematic for their faith. Historically, even some of the founders of fundamentalism considered evolution probable.
I did not say that now did I. You gave 3 examples of churches that believe in evolution, I gave you 3 more examples of beliefs from one of your examples to make a point. Does anything that these churches say, these religious denominations believe in, make it an absolute must for all other Christians to believe. No. Just because they do, does not mean I have to now does it.
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How exactly does the creative account of Genesis read figuratively?
quote:
In almost every way imaginable. Give this a gander, especially Part 2.
I see, but I still don't agree. To me it is a literal statement of how things were created.
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 7/3/2008 3:50:39 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
Oh I see, that most definitely explains it. So how do we know the date of the beginning of the universe.
The Lambda-CDM concordance model describes the evolution of the universe from a very uniform, hot, dense primordial state to its present state over a span of about 13.7 billion years of cosmological time. This model is well understood theoretically and strongly supported by recent high-precision astronomical observations such as WMAP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_universe
The short of it is that we can measure the age of the universe by the temperature of the cosmic microwave background.
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 7/3/2008 4:07:30 PM
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hellohellohi
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quote:
"Sell all you have and give to the poor" "He who takes up the sword will die by the sword." "Love your enemies. " "Forgive our debts as we have forgiven our debtors." You won't have any difficulty rousing opposition.
hear, hear!
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RE: CONSPIRACY!!! - 7/3/2008 10:13:45 PM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
I see, but I still don't agree. To me it is a literal statement of how things were created.
Why? What makes its "literal"value important to you?
Also, would you like to comment in more detail on the point-of-view presented? You will note that he pointed out that it is not a denial of a young earth. It just makes that option much more an option.
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