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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/4/2008 1:11:25 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmc4Jesus
...It is necessary in any organization that one person assume the role of leader (of the leaders).
I'm sorry, but I think this idea really limits G-d. I have been an attender of a congregation since 1995 and a member of the same congregation since late 1999, and it does not have a one--earthly-person leader. It has, over the years, gone from a two-person leadership to a four-person leadership, and it works very well. Indeed, we have tried to make sure that the only Single Leader is Messiah, with these earthly leaders as subordinants.
When asked by callers who our senior pastor is, the leaders will bluntly say that He is Messiah. How do they keep it this way? The leadership consult one another on decisions and base their answers on what the Bible says. If anyone in the congregation disagrees with anything they decide, we talk it out. If they were wrong, they concede; if we are wrong, we concede. If it cannot be ironed out that way, it is taken to the congregation, and a decision is made.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/4/2008 11:05:33 AM
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jn1010lf
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Hello Shabach4JC
It is not right that a Pastor have dictatorial rule in any church. I believe that elders are suppose to govern the church, even though one of them, the Pastor, is the leader. But this leadership must be done by the love of Jesus Christ.
Have you ever considered this? There is perfect harmony and agreement between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Likewise, church leaders are to have the same relationships with each other.
Consider this as well. Every organization eventually comes to one. Even the activities of kids playing together, there develops a leader of the pack. Have you ever noticed birds flying? They don't fly side by side but with one of them out front.
Nothing operates with equal joint authority between all involved. Whenever it's attempted you have nothing but chaos and confusion. God sent one Son, not two or three. While we see the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, you will find that the Father is just a bit higher than the other two. (Like, only He knows when the Son will return for the second time, Mt 24)
So, the Pastor is the leader in love. The other leaders share his vision that the Lord gives and they are in agreement. It's not a democratic vote but a super natural knowing. All must hear from God, however, even the members of the congregation. Nothing in God's kingdom is by democratic vote but by revelation knowledge from God the Father.
I imagine this sounds strange. It's not the traditional church. That's right and that's the problem. I't become out of order. It's powerless. It's been paralized by man's analysis and organization. But if it ever learns to be led by the Spirit, the world will be overturned. One thing we know. When Jesus Christ returns and reigns for a thousand years, every person will be flabbergasted and overwhelmed.
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/4/2008 1:07:11 PM
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pstrdebi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jn1010lf
Likewise, church leaders are to have the same relationships with each other.
In a perfect world.
Unfortunately... too much of the world creeps in.
quote:
Consider this as well. Every organization eventually comes to one. Even the activities of kids playing together, there develops a leader of the pack. Have you ever noticed birds flying? They don't fly side by side but with one of them out front.
Nothing operates with equal joint authority between all involved. Whenever it's attempted you have nothing but chaos and confusion. God sent one Son, not two or three. While we see the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, you will find that the Father is just a bit higher than the other two. (Like, only He knows when the Son will return for the second time, Mt 24)
So, the Pastor is the leader in love. The other leaders share his vision that the Lord gives and they are in agreement. It's not a democratic vote but a super natural knowing. All must hear from God, however, even the members of the congregation. Nothing in God's kingdom is by democratic vote but by revelation knowledge from God the Father.
I imagine this sounds strange. It's not the traditional church. That's right and that's the problem. I't become out of order. It's powerless. It's been paralyzed by man's analysis and organization. But if it ever learns to be led by the Spirit, the world will be overturned. One thing we know. When Jesus Christ returns and reigns for a thousand years, every person will be flabbergasted and overwhelmed.
Very well said.
Ahhhh, Order!
All too many times, folks leave out the fact that God is a God of order. God-Christ-Man-Woman, etc.
The description above is a perfect picture of a perfect church... and I agree with it to a point.
The problem lies within the leadership... whether it is the pastor of a church, the CEO of Rockwell, or the principal of a school... a leader is to lead by example. If you have a selfish leader, you will develop selfish people. If you have a leader that is devisive, you will develop devisive people. Likewise, if you have a leader who follows the example of Christ and lives it, you will develop the same type of people.
If a pastor is not a leader, a shepherd... he is easy prey for the elder board to run all over him and that is wrong. A pastor needs to lead his flock... and the elders or deacons need to tend to the business of the church. I do not find anything scriptural about the elders running the pastor of the church or a board running the pastor. They can and should, just like the rest of the congregation, hold him accountable as the Word says for everyone.
Many people quote Titus 1:5 as meaning that they should appoint 'elders' in the church. No... Paul is addressing a lack of organization in the churches... there seemed to be several leaders in these churches which was causing disorganization and confusion, and he is calling for an Elder (or Bishop) to be appointed as leader over these churches. The book goes on as a guide of direction for that Elder (pastor)... and then look at verse 2:15 "Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you."
Look at Acts 6:2-4, "Then the twelve summoned the multitude of the disciples and said, 'It is not desirable that we should leave the Word of God and serve tables. Therefore, brethern, seek out from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business, but we will give ourselves continually to prayer and to the ministry of the Word." The Apostles (the pastors so to speak) needed to be able to concentrate of the business of God... they were in a leadership position. This verse seperates the positions... it does not equalize them. The seven were to take care of the business of the church... not the business of leading the church.
And what about Ephesians 4:11-12, "And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the Body Of Christ..." I don't think these 'titles' would be singled out without reason. In fact the word 'pastor' in the Greek is Poimen... and means Shepherd... a Shepherd leads his flock.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Shabach4JC
I have studied the Bible for close to 20 years now and I have yet to find any Scriptural support for the paradigm where Pastors are the head and have complete, dictatorial control over local congregations.
What about Jeremiah 3:15, "And I will give you pastors (shepherds) according to my heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding."
God never talks about dictorial rule, if fact He speaks against pastors abusing their authority... and again, if you are in a church that believes in the pastor being a dictator... then RUN!... but He (God) does refer to Pastors as being the leaders of the church body.
Just my observations...
Pastor Debi
_____________________________
"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." Acts 17:28a
http://www.therockfellowship.org
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/4/2008 5:49:26 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
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There is ONE PASTOR for the church...CHRIST.
That is why I am opposed to "pastor" as a title.
Some call it semantics.
I would go as far to say it is unacceptable for us to continue using the title for the sake of "tradition".
If you haven't noticed "tradition" has ruined our churches (no matter what your denomination).
but that's just my .02
_____________________________
My New Blog site
Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/5/2008 9:35:34 AM
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seagullplayer
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Changing the title doesn’t change anything, that’s a kind of legalistic approach. It is how the office is treated that is the problem; it’s a heart thing, not a name thing.
Those that would abuse it would still abuse it if they where called brother or sister or janitor…
_____________________________
The world has only one problem, sin.
There is only one solution, Jesus.
THE WAY.
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/5/2008 10:49:28 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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I disagree. If people would see how it is used in the Bible and consider the meaning of the word, it would make a difference. The way we use words and the meanings implanted behind them matters. They fully influence the hearers.
We have also been influenced by what we see in today's world regarding people called "bishop" and other such titles. Many times, such persons are dressed up in church finery, and that in itself changes the perception of those looking on.
Look up Reverend, and some of you may drop that term. And any good secretary who has had to deal with religious titles has had her/his eyes dazzled by the self-lionizing titles given or assumed by such persons -- an amazing list.
"But you, are you seeking great things for yourself? Do not seek them" (Jeremiah 45:5)
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/5/2008 1:00:59 PM
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pstrdebi
Posts: 666
Joined: 4/28/2008
From: So. Oregon, by way of So. Cal.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: seagullplayer
Changing the title doesn’t change anything, that’s a kind of legalistic approach. It is how the office is treated that is the problem; it’s a heart thing, not a name thing.
Those that would abuse it would still abuse it if they where called brother or sister or janitor…
I agree with this...
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
If people would see how it is used in the Bible and consider the meaning of the word, it would make a difference. The way we use words and the meanings implanted behind them matters. They fully influence the hearers.
Sadly, I disagree (with the first sentence). Even though it SHOULD be this way.
People see how the Word 'sin' is used in the Bible,,, they know the meaning f it and it's implications, yet many "Christians" still live in willfull sin.
Many know how the Word God is used in the Bible... the meaning of His name, yet I have heard many "Christians" take it in vain.
It IS a heart thing. Unless you have conviction of the Holy Spirit regarding the things of Heaven (which includes "on earth as it is in Heaven") it doesn't matter what a person is called.
When I was a young Christian, I moved to a new community, and began to look for a church. I went one morning, to a (denomination withheld) church because I had been to others that had fed me before. As I sat there with my young daughter looking on... and as the worship team did their thing... the 'pastor' came on stage and proceeded to take his place, seated in a huge red, what I would consider (because it was a very close resemblence) throne/chair. As he sat there... he began to wring his hands and display such a 'show' while twisting his face as if he was in pain. It may have been that the $1000 suit was bunching up... who knows.
All this to say... "Pastors," "Reverands," "Bishops," "Priests,"... whatever they have as a "title"... it doesn't mean a thing unless their hearts are right before God. No facade or hand wringing or throne is going to fool God.
There are many "Pastors/Shepherds" who have worked hard serving the Lord... have put Him first in all things... have an unwaivering and uncomprimising walk... and lead their sheep in the ways of God.
God bless them all.
Pastor Debi
_____________________________
"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." Acts 17:28a
http://www.therockfellowship.org
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 6/5/2008 1:10:38 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3466
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From: a mother who let me live
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pstrdebi
... the 'pastor' came on stage and proceeded to take his place, seated in a huge red, what I would consider (because it was a very close resemblence) throne/chair. As he sat there... he began to wring his hands and display such a 'show' while twisting his face as if he was in pain. It may have been that the $1000 suit was bunching up... who knows.
Those big ol' red velvet thrones are so uncomfortable, and so is that pack of those bulging church-credit cards. Silk can be a problem, too. For good night, give the guy a break!!!
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 7/1/2008 12:54:53 PM
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skypainter07
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I love my denomination and have no problem with its theology except when it comes to the role of senior pastor. Pastors have a board of elders, but in the case of at least our church, the elders don't have much authority. They are more like a sounding board for the senior pastor. Recently an associate pastor was fired because the senior pastor felt that person did not have the right "skill set" for where he sees the church headed. A good share of the elders disagreed with the decision but they were powerless to stop the firing of this pastor, as it had already taken place when they were informed. This was very upsetting to the board and also to many ministry leaders (myself included) and the congregation. A letter was sent out announcing that the associate was leaving due to reasons I've stated, and that there were no issues of misconduct, indiscretion, etc. It was not a situation of any wrong doing - just the judgement of the senior pastor alone. The whole situation was handled very poorly and hurt the associate and spouse deeply, as well as others in the inner workings of church leadership. The conference superintendent stated that each church is under the sole leadership of the senior pastor and that he would stand by the decision.
I think this is a great example of why checks and balances are needed. I have been wondering about this very question this past month as I ponder over what happened. It seems very unbalanced and unscriptural to me that one man could make such a drastic decision without input from that local church, the board or congregation - especially when the associate is very respected, has great leadership and people skills, leads many to Christ on an ongoing basis, is effective in ministering to people of all ages, successfully leads and coordinates local and missions outreach, has served faithfully for eight years without a single discplinary issue. I'm still very heartsick over this, although I do know that God is ultimately in charge even through our mistakes.
My family has transferred to another church in our conference because of what happened. We don't feel that we can trust the judgement of our former senior pastor after what happened, and as a ministry leader I feel I can no longer follow him.
Blessings,
skypainter07
_____________________________
WORRY IS NOT TRUSTING IN THE PROMISES OF GOD.
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 7/1/2008 1:57:40 PM
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revbill
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Ephesians 4:11-16 states that the leaders of the church are to prepare the body of the church for the work of the ministry using their spiritual gifts. It is unfortunate that some senior pastors have translated this as they should be CEO's with unlimited authority. I believe all leadership positions should know and agree with the vision God has given the senior pastor. When senior and associate pastoral staff disagree it should be brought before the elder board for discussion. There is only one or two denonimations that assign CEO authority to the senior pastor. By the same token if there is a serious disagreement I believe if reconcilation cannot be biblically worked out as in Mathew 18:15-20
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 7/1/2008 3:48:02 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: skypainter07
I love my denomination and have no problem with its theology except when it comes to the role of senior pastor. Pastors have a board of elders, but in the case of at least our church, the elders don't have much authority. They are more like a sounding board for the senior pastor. Recently an associate pastor was fired because the senior pastor felt that person did not have the right "skill set" for where he sees the church headed. A good share of the elders disagreed with the decision but they were powerless to stop the firing of this pastor, as it had already taken place when they were informed. This was very upsetting to the board and also to many ministry leaders (myself included) and the congregation. A letter was sent out announcing that the associate was leaving due to reasons I've stated, and that there were no issues of misconduct, indiscretion, etc. It was not a situation of any wrong doing - just the judgement of the senior pastor alone. The whole situation was handled very poorly and hurt the associate and spouse deeply, as well as others in the inner workings of church leadership. The conference superintendent stated that each church is under the sole leadership of the senior pastor and that he would stand by the decision.
Blessings,
So the elders in your Church setting have no voice in who is hired or fired; what Denomination do you belong to?
The situation just may have been some moral or doctrinal terpitude on the part of the associate that the leadership did not desire to make public.
Or not.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 7/2/2008 1:02:34 AM
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skypainter07
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There were no moral or theological issues whatsoever. I know the parties involved and also read the letter sent out by the senior pastor stating the same.
The board is involved in hiring, but only offers input. Senior pastor makes the final decision. As far as firing goes, this has been the only case during my involvement with the church.
I am Free Methodist. As I said, I love my denomination, just not the policies with role of senior pastor.
Blessings,
skypainter07
< Message edited by skypainter07 -- 7/2/2008 1:09:00 AM >
_____________________________
WORRY IS NOT TRUSTING IN THE PROMISES OF GOD.
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 7/2/2008 1:24:52 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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(Since Shabach has not been around, I suppose we can do whatever we wish with the thread? It has been a month as of today.)
How are things in the new church, skypainter? I attended a Free Methodist church here a few times years ago, and that church was also definitely pastor-and-wife-centered, mainly pastor's-wife-centered. She had a very sharp tongue, as did her daughter.
There is a couple who made exodus from this same church, and they are now attending my husband's church. They were horribly abused (in all seriousness) before fleeing.
I would imagine they are different from church to church. What attracts you to this particular church?
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 7/2/2008 12:53:27 PM
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skypainter07
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Our new church is great and we are happy with the move. There is more than I can describe in our being there, even in how we ended up going there in the first place. For the sake of time and space I'll share the basics.
Since the new church is a church plant from the other one we were members of, we already know the majority of people. It is a warm church, filled with people that are truly seeking G-d's will. We experience authentic worship and prayer in and out of services. There have been healings from sickness. We are taught not only to read the Word and pray daily, but to disciple others as well. There is ministry outreach to the poor and disenfranchised in the community, and a strong desire and willingness to work in unity with churches in the area. As to the denomination, we are completely in line with the Wesleyan theology.
We belonged to another FM church in another part of the state and grew spiritually, more than any other church we'd attended. I'm sorry to hear you have had bad experiences with an FM church, but as you said, churches are different from place to place.
Again, our only problem has been the pastor/CEO model, which is why I posted here. I know that is found to be true in many denominations across the board in the US these days. I hope it is one thing that will change in time, as I agree it is not in line with God's intention for His church.
Blessings,
skypainter07
_____________________________
WORRY IS NOT TRUSTING IN THE PROMISES OF GOD.
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 7/4/2008 1:34:33 AM
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KPOP
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HI THERE.
THIS IS WHAT I SEE IN MOST PASTORS IN RIVERSIDE COUNTY
I HAVE ATTENDED TO FIVE DIFFERENT CHURCHES NOW BETWEEN HEMET AND SAN JACINTO
I HAVE YET TO SEE A PASTOR IN THOSE CHURCHES WHO DOES NOT SEEK THE CONGRESSIONS OR BOARD MEMBERS ADVISE BEFORE MAKING DECISIONS
BUT OF COURSE -- THE FINAL DECISIONS ARE MADE BY THE PASTOR
LOOK AT IT THIS WAY
DID GOD ASK ADAM WHAT HE WANTS TO EAT?
NO -- GOD TOLD ADAM WHAT HE CAN AND CANNOT EAT
SO -- FOR PASTORS
DID YOUR PASTOR ASK YOU TO PREPARE HIS SERMOND FOR HIM?
OR DID YOU KINDA ASK THE PASTOR TO GIVE SERMON ON TOPICS SUCH AS I.E.,
THE CONGREGATION ALSO NEEDS TO KNOW THAT THE PASTOR IS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH
BUT THAT THE PASTOR CANNOT DO THE WORK ALONE
GOOD LUCK
KATHY
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 7/5/2008 11:10:54 AM
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lightshineon
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A pastor should be a Servant Leader, that is the problem I personally have ran into with SP. I know there are very good pastors though, that are that though. In my denom. it seems like they are put on a throne. They, are to be honored, because you love them, not because of being lorded over. I just am sick of seeing this behavior. I am not a trouble maker, do not say anything, but have seen alot of bad things, and people who leave that never go back to church again, ever. I have also been targeted, but, I still go, keep the peace, and would never give up on the fellowship maybe just not thois church. I know that some of these men ( in my church)start out with a servants heart, but, things start falling apart. I know some will say " Oh your rebellious, obey with out question, which I do btw. This is Spiritual Abuse to people, and I have seen flat out lying. I wish there in my church there was no Senior Pastor, actually. When we have been between pastors, had elders it seemed to flow in much love, and fellowship. I repeat, I am not saying this all churches, I know there are good, Godly senior pastors, who walk in humility, love, and sacrifice so much, it is just not in my church. So those who, are leaglistic, think I am reprobate, a troublemaker, whatever. Please save it, you have not seen what I have, I am not a dumb sheep, and with respect many have lost their zeal for God, because of bad Shepards which the Bible does describe. So in much respect, please keep your judgement to yourself. Thanks.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 7/5/2008 3:44:20 PM
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SteelCurtain
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From: Virginia
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Your statement seems to be a generalization of all churches. It sounds like you either attended one or are attending one with a dictator? I can tell you that through my denomination (and we aren't perfect) the pastor is the "head" of the church, just as a shepherd is head of the flock, but he is accountable to the Board of the church. Yes, they give great credibility to his leading but NOTHING is done in that church without the support of the Board.
Now, on the side of being the "boss" of the staff (other pastors) he has complete control of how he runs his staff in terms of expectations, meetings, etc...However, again, the pastor may have a huge say in the hiring of another staff pastor but it is always brought back to the board for a final decision.
I've always been a part of a church like this either by attending or by ministering.
_____________________________
Pray simply, wait sometimes, stick to the path.
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RE: Why are Pastors the Head of churches in America? - 7/5/2008 8:02:51 PM
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Strategon
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Anyone read Pagan Christianity? This book addresses this very issue. Frank asks the question, "Where does the modern day pastor get his job description?" While pastors are needed, just as everyone is needed in the body, it is an interesting read to see where we got the modern version. In my opinion though, the saddest part of this whole thing is not pastors as rulers, but as co-dependent sheep who would rather vicariously live there lives through a spiritual leader than to just put that leader in the right place, as a person who is called to help them mature and grow in Christ.
_____________________________
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"Provoking mindless sheeple to become thinking people!"
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