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RE: Messianic Fellowship-Sivan 5768 - 4/27/2009 9:10:26 PM
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praznhim
Posts: 60
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My dh has changed his hours at work and now does not work on Shabbat at all. I have not worked on Shabbat for many years; over 11 anyways.
He is home ALL day Friday and Saturday; we prepare for our Shabbat meal and have time of scripture reading (and yes, I kindle the lights of Shabbat) and my dh blesses the children (and me and my mom). I bless him and my mother as well and then we have time of family talking, singing, resting, no DVDs or "other" entertainment on Shabbat. We have found this to be pure freedom and not a ritual that binds us to "not" do things for NO reason. We have set this time aside to allow God's Spirit to minister to us and each other and prepare for congregational worship the next morning.
Our Passover was lovely. I was priviliged to invite another Messianic Jewess (whom I met on the phone through my work) as my guest and she thoroughly enjoyed it. It is a blessing to be a blessing! She hope to bring another Messianic Jewess with her to worship with us. I just found out that another dear friend of mine has Jewish roots and she will be joining us also for worship on occassion. This is just remarkable for me. It feels like the "fulness of the gentiles" could be coming to an end (at least in my little corner of the world) and the Jews are being called to their Messiah!!! Hallelujah and Baruch Hashem.
Hope you all are well and filled with the Shalom of Our blessed Savior; Sar Shalom, Messiah Yeshua.
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RE: Messianic Fellowship-Sivan 5768 - 4/27/2009 10:25:22 PM
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drussell52
Posts: 153
Joined: 4/24/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: praznhim
My dh has changed his hours at work and now does not work on Shabbat at all. I have not worked on Shabbat for many years; over 11 anyways.
He is home ALL day Friday and Saturday; we prepare for our Shabbat meal and have time of scripture reading (and yes, I kindle the lights of Shabbat) and my dh blesses the children (and me and my mom). I bless him and my mother as well and then we have time of family talking, singing, resting, no DVDs or "other" entertainment on Shabbat. We have found this to be pure freedom and not a ritual that binds us to "not" do things for NO reason. We have set this time aside to allow God's Spirit to minister to us and each other and prepare for congregational worship the next morning.
Our Passover was lovely. I was priviliged to invite another Messianic Jewess (whom I met on the phone through my work) as my guest and she thoroughly enjoyed it. It is a blessing to be a blessing! She hope to bring another Messianic Jewess with her to worship with us. I just found out that another dear friend of mine has Jewish roots and she will be joining us also for worship on occassion. This is just remarkable for me. It feels like the "fulness of the gentiles" could be coming to an end (at least in my little corner of the world) and the Jews are being called to their Messiah!!! Hallelujah and Baruch Hashem.
Hope you all are well and filled with the Shalom of Our blessed Savior; Sar Shalom, Messiah Yeshua.
Shalom Praznhim and all. I have been at a couple other boards of late, but decided to check in and ask your prayers. At the end of September, taking my brother who is the President of where we attend church, to the David Bivvan seminar to be held in my state and looking forward to this venture. It will give us time as brothers to be together also. Secondly, I am toying with the idea of taking a course or 2 from the Messianic Bureau International Yeshiva, as their courses are via email and correspondence in nature. It is sort of away to formalize my studies and also be accountable by having to submit tests or something related to the particular course work. Have never been able to find a mentor since the Rabbi I had the phone study with passed away, but amazed at the grip Yeshua has on me.. Please pray for both ventures though they are sort of long-term. (Drussell52), David
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RE: Messianic Fellowship-Sivan 5768 - 4/28/2009 3:29:44 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5783
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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Sounds like a marvellous goings on praznhim.
Wish I were there...............lol.
In my prayers Dave.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Messianic Fellowship-Sivan 5768 - 4/29/2009 8:02:16 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3812
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
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So what is Messianic Bureau International up to these days? I met and had a few lengthy conversations with Rev. David Hargiss (sp?) who founded it many years ago. He was the asst. pastor at my BIL's congregation in Virginia Beach. I do know he went wholesale into the error of the Wootans - the Messianic Israel 2 house theory. That was when he built up that ministry. Then he had a falling out with them and repudiated at least some of the more objectionalble points of their theology.
Then he died. I do not know if MBI went back into the Wootans' theology or came back to mainstream Messianic Judaism.
Be careful with them.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Messianic Fellowship-Sivan 5768 - 4/29/2009 10:59:45 AM
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ShamashDon
Posts: 2
Joined: 4/29/2009
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Dave,
Rabbi Dave never went "wholesale into the error" of the Wootens. In fact, after writing his support for Two House, he continued to study it, and said and wrote that he had changed his opinion on it, stating that such a doctorine could not be built on a prophecy. Not that the rest of the Messianic community ever paid attention, since to this day, people consider MBI to be Two House.
David caught flak from many in the Two House movement when some organizational decisions were made at MBI regarding MBI's doctorinal position as well as changes that were made regarding ministerial licensing with MBI. He also never had a falling out with the Wooten's, and spoke with Angus about why he no longer agreed with the Two House doctorine several years before he passed away.
What MBI believes is clearly posted on it's website under the Statement of Faith.
I've lurked quite awhile on this board, and have always thought that you were one of the more balanced posters regarding Messianic Jewish issues until I saw your response, especially the "Be careful with them".
To help you catch up with MBI, and become better informed, allow me to share what has happened since Rabbi Hargis passed away.
His wife Linda continued on as Interim president of MBI, as well as the Yeshiva.
During the last MBI conference in 2008, we the MBI board met to choose a new president.
In October of 2008, Dr. Daniel Akans from Bay City Michigan was offered and accepted the position. Dr. Akans shares the same vision for MBI that Rabbi Hargis had. As a result, all of the MBI office functions, as well as the Ministerial Association functions moved to Michigan. In fact, MBI is getting ready for it's 2009 conference this July in Michigan.
Due to the move, MBI and MBI Yeshiva became two separate organizations. The acutal long name of MBI Yeshiva is Messianic Bible Institute - Yeshiva, not Messianic Bureau International - Yeshiva. Rabbi David's wife Linda, is now the Yeshiva president, and our office is located in Hampton, VA.
If it seems that I am a little "hot under the collar", it's because I am. There is too much lashon about who believes what, who is doing what, etc. rather than going directly to the ministry or person in question. People can always contact MBI or the Yeshiva directly by visiting the respective websites and simply shooting off an e-mail or by calling the respective offices. The other reason I'm posting is that I knew and worked with Rabbi David Hargis for twenty years, up until his passing. I still work with his wife Linda. He was my friend and mentor, and it still bothers me that people that did not know him, still believe what they "hear" out in cyber-space, rather than taking the step of asking us directly.
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RE: Messianic Fellowship-Sivan 5768 - 4/29/2009 1:04:13 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 3812
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
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I apologise if my facts were not straight on that.
Moving to Michigan, eh? Interesting......
Like I said, my BIL knew Hargis well when he was asst pastor at Glad Tidings. As to the 2 house stuff, there is so much conflicting information out there I can only go with what I read from the Wootans's newsletters I used to get. Even they now deny they ever said things that I have in print. They had pegged Hargis as one of their own. I am glad that he did not buy into their doctrinal errors.
BTW, Did you know that Tikkun International has had a graduate level school (now dormant for several years) called "Messianic Biblical Institute" (MBI) started by Dan Juster, ThD? Rabbi Mike Rudolph now has the records and still runs some classes on a videotape basis. The name seems to be pretty close.......
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Messianic Fellowship-Sivan 5768 - 4/29/2009 2:15:00 PM
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ShamashDon
Posts: 2
Joined: 4/29/2009
Status: offline
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Dave,
Appreciate your response. Over the years, I've come to realize that the Internet is like the Wild West, and that anything that is posted is true, even if it's not.
Yes, we have been aware of the Tikkun yeshiva, there's also Moody Bible Institute, that MBI Yeshiva has been confused with.
We try to keep the Yeshiva title short, since the long title gets to be a tounge twister, we leave it as MBI - Yeshiva.
The thing about David Hargis was that he was always seeking the Most High for the truth, and many times when he taught on Shabbat congregationally, he would often admit that he was wrong and then proceeded to show where he was wrong, and where he stood on the issue.
Also, please accept my apology. My response may have come across as being personal, and that was not my intent. I was more frustrated that this type of garbage is still floating around, and most likely will be until Messiah Yeshua returns.
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RE: Messianic Fellowship-Sivan 5768 - 4/29/2009 5:17:31 PM
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drussell52
Posts: 153
Joined: 4/24/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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Having received a PM from ShamashDon, came here after replying to see Dave W's post and subsequent exchange that followed. To help your prayer efforts for my journey here are some practical facts. I am married, in my mid 50s, became aware of this faith perspective 3 years ago through a 6-month phone study with the late Rabbi Stan Greene from Santa Clarita, CA, met over the internet, another interesting story, and since his passing have used on line resources like J. K. McKee, torahclass.com, First Fruits of Zion, and to lesser extent Haydid Institute to self educate. Am visually impaired, and immediate family doesn't share my interest to the extent I have it, seemingly. Going to David Bivvan's conference in late Sept. with my brother, fellowship via this board and a yahoogroup MN messianic alliance. The MBI Yeshiva looks attractive to me, but Haydid may be more practical. I feel the need for a mentor or some type of formalized accountability, on cool terms with a Lutheran pastor where we attend church, and I am a paid musician there, cannot give up this new-found faith perspective but almost feel gripped to proceed. Biggest affect has been the study on Genesis 15, and concluding remarks at the end of the study of Leviticus 11 on torahclass.com. "God will never ask you to do anything that isn't in line with his principles." There are a lot of MJ extremists out here, and thus far have avoided the isolators, the ones who call everything pagan, or the others who separate theology based on ethnicity, we are one new person in Yeshua regardless of nationality.. Thanks for your time, listening, praying, posting, and etc. (Drussell52), David
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RE: Messianic Fellowship-Sivan 5768 - 4/30/2009 8:10:25 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3812
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
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ShamashDon:
I appreciate your response. As you stated, there is a lot of junk floating around out there and without someone to challenge it, correct it, put it in perspective, it will rule the day. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
As to the Tikkun yeshiva, it is in the process of being rolled into the UMJC sponsored Messianic Jewish Theological Seminary (MJTS) which has been incorporated under the umbrella of Fuller Theological Institute. Former Tikkun director of operations Carl Kinbar (a good freind and my wife's former boss) is heading up the seminary. Our sr. Rabbi's son David J Rudolph will be teaching at it out in California. With those 2 guys on staff, it should be a pretty impressive cirruculum.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Messianic Fellowship-Sivan 5768 - 5/1/2009 11:59:22 AM
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drussell52
Posts: 153
Joined: 4/24/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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Shalom all, To be brief, working toward beginning application process and taking courses at the MBI Yeshiva, starting mid to late fall of this year. Have wife's blessings on this, which is a big weight off the shoulders. Thanks for prayers, please continue them, will do likewise! (Drussell52) David
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RE: Messianic Fellowship-Sivan 5768 - 5/4/2009 4:23:09 PM
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drussell52
Posts: 153
Joined: 4/24/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drussell52
Shalom all, To be brief, working toward beginning application process and taking courses at the MBI Yeshiva, starting mid to late fall of this year. Have wife's blessings on this, which is a big weight off the shoulders. Thanks for prayers, please continue them, will do likewise! (Drussell52) David
Update. I received 2 emails urging extreme caution in my pending plans with evidential reason provided in each, will thus do..
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RE: Messianic Fellowship-Sivan 5768 - 5/5/2009 12:10:33 PM
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drussell52
Posts: 153
Joined: 4/24/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drussell52
quote:
ORIGINAL: drussell52
Shalom all, To be brief, working toward beginning application process and taking courses at the MBI Yeshiva, starting mid to late fall of this year. Have wife's blessings on this, which is a big weight off the shoulders. Thanks for prayers, please continue them, will do likewise! (Drussell52) David
Update. I received 2 emails urging extreme caution in my pending plans with evidential reason provided in each, will thus do..
Changing topics.. A friend has a blog and forum where between Passover and Pentecost the participants reflect on something titled Pirkei Avot. Things essential for one to fully receive the Word of God, Torah. I placed these elsewhere but was asked to place this post here by forum moderator. So, if you care to comment on these, please do, need the fellowship! "Torah is acquired through 48 things: by study, by attentiveness, by orderly speech, by an understanding heart, by a perceptive heart, by awe, by fear, by humility, by joy, by ministering to the sages, etc etc etc. What do you think is meant by orderly speech? I think it refers to the one presenting the Word, or could it be referring to the receptiveness of the hearer/reader? (Drussell52)
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RE: Messianic Fellowship-Sivan 5768 - 5/5/2009 6:42:14 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2930
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drussell52
Changing topics.. A friend has a blog and forum where between Passover and Pentecost the participants reflect on something titled Pirkei Avot. Things essential for one to fully receive the Word of God, Torah. I placed these elsewhere but was asked to place this post here by forum moderator. So, if you care to comment on these, please do, need the fellowship! "Torah is acquired through 48 things: by study, by attentiveness, by orderly speech, by an understanding heart, by a perceptive heart, by awe, by fear, by humility, by joy, by ministering to the sages, etc etc etc. What do you think is meant by orderly speech? I think it refers to the one presenting the Word, or could it be referring to the receptiveness of the hearer/reader? (Drussell52)
Sounds like "The Pirkei Avot Driven Torah Study" to me, to turn a phrase. If there are references or parasha to go with each of these, it might make for an interesting topical study. However, I prefer to simply study the Scriptures chapter by chapter and let the proper study characteristics develop as iron sharpens iron.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Messianic Fellowship-Sivan 5768 - 5/6/2009 3:54:11 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5783
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
I prefer to simply study the Scriptures chapter by chapter and let the proper study characteristics develop as iron sharpens iron.
This is my philosophy as well.
Learning from the brethren, but judging all by the Word.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Messianic Fellowship-Sivan 5768 - 5/9/2009 3:27:05 PM
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narnia
Posts: 477
Status: offline
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I am so very tired of dealing with people who are disappointed with dances not done exactly the way they remember. What they really need to do is build themselves a robot and program it accordingly.
Can't wait til the regular leader returns.
_____________________________
Domestic Diva, according to our Forums Mother!
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RE: Messianic Fellowship-Sivan 5768 - 5/10/2009 4:06:01 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2930
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: narnia
I am so very tired of dealing with people who are disappointed with dances not done exactly the way they remember. What they really need to do is build themselves a robot and program it accordingly.
Can't wait til the regular leader returns.
Where in the Scriptures do we find the instructions on how to dance? Is that in the kama sutra version of the Scriptures? We don't have dancing at our convocations. Not that we don't appove of it necessarily. We're just a bunch of fuddy duddies who profer to argue. I guess you could call that a dance of sorts. Some of us dance around the issues on occasion.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Messianic Fellowship-Sivan 5768 - 5/10/2009 2:32:24 PM
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narnia
Posts: 477
Status: offline
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Lol, Bluethread. Some of the dances we learned are from another congregation and they want them to stay the same so that at conferences we are doing the same dances they are. And I do understand that they don't want all the dances changed. This particular dance the problem was that the ending was not right.
All I am doing is following the dances the way they were written in the book...the way our leader abroad remembered them. Due to close to 6 months of being questioned on every single dance, now I am not as confident in teaching them, nor what my memory is of them. They were written in the book wrong, but these complaints did not happen when the regular leader was here. It is one individual that has complained about it the most, and now I have to cater to her every demand..and leadership agrees with this.
_____________________________
Domestic Diva, according to our Forums Mother!
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RE: Messianic Fellowship-Sivan 5768 - 5/10/2009 2:34:36 PM
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narnia
Posts: 477
Status: offline
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Yup.
_____________________________
Domestic Diva, according to our Forums Mother!
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RE: Messianic Fellowship-Sivan 5768 - 5/11/2009 3:10:24 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2930
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: narnia
Yup.
If it ain't fun, in ain't dancin'. It's performing. Apart from regulating for the sake of modesty, I would not dance on Shabbat if it required the decipline to "do it right". Those who can do it right are to be applauded. Those who can't, like myself, are to be led around by those who can and encouraged not to take themselves too seriously.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Messianic Fellowship-Sivan 5768 - 5/11/2009 3:02:34 PM
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narnia
Posts: 477
Status: offline
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I was also told that there are people in the congregation who have been there longer and know the dances better. I am strongly considering stepping down now and giving leadership the opportunity to put that person in as dance leader, since they are not happy with me...as their comment suggested.
I understand about not changing all the dances all the time, cause then people can't join in...but really...to be upset about the ending?! And then give me the comment above?
_____________________________
Domestic Diva, according to our Forums Mother!
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RE: Messianic Fellowship-Sivan 5768 - 5/15/2009 3:12:24 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5783
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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It always comes down to "control."
The devil is everywhere.
He doesn't need his army when he
can manipulate God's army.
May the Lord help us all.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Messianic Fellowship-Sivan 5768 - 5/21/2009 5:42:39 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2930
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
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With Shavuot coming up on the eve after the fifth day of next week(thursday), I was looking up the verses on Shavuot. I had heard that we need to afflict ouselves on that day. However, it appears that that refers to Ym Kippur. We are to gather an offering for the poor on that day. If anyone can clear things up regarding afflicting oneself, It would be helpful, I will be bringing this up at Torah study this Shabbat.
(Deut. 16:9-11)Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks from such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn. And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the LORD thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give unto the LORD thy God, according as the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: And thou shalt rejoice before the LORD thy God, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite that is within thy gates, and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are among you, in the place which the LORD thy God hath chosen to place his name there
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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