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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/12/2008 3:52:23 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 997
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Now if you classify family as local community then I agree.
I believe the Scriptures tell us that is the basis of community. A group of people without family ties is not a community, its just a group of people.
quote:
Him4all:
A testimony to 'Christ and Christianity' that made national news! I can only hope that my testimony would be as good.
What specifically do you believe that testimony was?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/12/2008 4:53:41 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1142
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
quote:
my community is short on law enforcement and there have been local seminars an defending yourself and property.
Has a 'local' church countered with a position of dying as a testimony to the faith?
DR
there is nothing christian about not having civil authority for safety and protection.
it's not a martyr situation.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/12/2008 5:52:55 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 417
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Bluethread,
quote:
What specifically do you believe that testimony was?
I suppose I'd have to say 'true forgiveness' which was manifested in public by word and deed, toward the murderer and his parents. When you first heard about it (I'm assuming) what were your thoughts concerning their actions and faith?
Plus, I know the Mennonites here would never sit on a jury and comdemn that man and I am assuming that the Amish feel the same way concerning the 'sword' of government and its right to inflict even the death penalty via our judicial system. While they enjoy the benefits of civil law they feel no obligation to participate except when forced. I admit it's a tuff line to walk and I have nothing but admiration for their decision, even though I don't know if I could/would do the same.
OLEEguacamole,
quote:
there is nothing christian about not having civil authority for safety and protection. I agree, and I'm very thankful for our protection from those authorities. But by the same token I went to Viet Nam as an unbeliever and when I came home I always said I'd go to Canada the next time. I even looked into to Australian citizenship because I was so disenchanted with what I saw and experienced concerning our government. But now as a believer, I am thankful that I live in a country which allows me to have the option to declare myself a 'conscentious objector'. That's what the Mennonites locally do...if drafted.
quote:
it's not a martyr situation. What is, in your opinion?
DR
< Message edited by Him4all -- 6/12/2008 5:58:58 PM >
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/12/2008 6:05:45 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1142
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
Bluethread,
quote:
What specifically do you believe that testimony was?
I suppose I'd have to say 'true forgiveness' which was manifested in public by word and deed, toward the murderer and his parents. When you first heard about it (I'm assuming) what were your thoughts concerning their actions and faith?
Plus, I know the Mennonites here would never sit on a jury and comdemn that man and I am assuming that the Amish feel the same way concerning the 'sword' of government and its right to inflict even the death penalty via our judicial system. While they enjoy the benefits of civil law they feel no obligation to participate except when forced. I admit it's a tuff line to walk and I have nothing but admiration for their decision, even though I don't know if I could/would do the same.
OLEEguacamole,
quote:
there is nothing christian about not having civil authority for safety and protection. I agree, and I'm very thankful for our protection from those authorities. But by the same token I went to Viet Nam as an unbeliever and when I came home I always said I'd go to Canada the next time. I even looked into to Australian citizenship because I was so disenchanted with what I saw and experienced concerning our government. But now as a believer, I am thankful that I live in a country which allows me to have the option to declare myself a 'conscentious objector'. That's what the Mennonites locally do...if drafted.
quote:
it's not a martyr situation. What is, in your opinion?
DR
having to deny your faith or die. deny Christ, refrain from talking of Christ to no believers. that kind of thing.
just being a christian and dying in an unfortunate situation is not martyrdom.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/13/2008 10:26:52 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 417
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
OLEEguacamole
having to deny your faith or die. deny Christ, refrain from talking of Christ to no believers. that kind of thing.
just being a christian and dying in an unfortunate situation is not martyrdom.
I'm not sure why martyrdom got brought up, and I don't want to sidetrack the thread, but if I decided to die rather than defend myself because defending myself would be denying the faith, then that would meet your above definiton of a martyr...I think. But like I said let's don't get hung up on that, it would be God's call/definition that really mattered ultimately IMO.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/13/2008 12:24:29 PM
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wintery
Posts: 1346
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
I am looking for imput on this verse:
LUK 22:36 He said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it, and likewise a bag. And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one.
I've never heard any teaching concerning what Jesus might have been talking about concerning 'buying a sword'. Has anyone had any documented insight concerning what this might have been 'historically' or 'symbolically' been talking about?
DR
And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet; and he that hath none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword. (Luke 22:36)
...just sixteen verses later in the same chapter and book...
And Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and elders, that were come against him, Are ye come out, as against a robber, with swords and staves? (Luke 22:52)
It's looking a lot like swords are for robbers to me.
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/13/2008 12:25:13 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1772
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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DR...
If God has put it in you heart to not defend yourself, that’s exactly what you should do. Doesn’t God guide you thoughts?
On the other hand if God has prepared me to be in a position to defend something that is what I should do. I am a semi pacifist I guess.
If God wanted all Christians to take a non defense position, there might not be very many Christians around today. 
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/13/2008 12:41:09 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 997
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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Just to clarify, death doesn't make the martyr. Death finds the martyr. That is, a martyr is one who is faithful unto death, regardless of what kind of death that might be. It is faithfullness that makes one a martyr. Death is just final condition before a faithful one can be called a martyr.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/13/2008 3:14:00 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 417
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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wintery,
I appreciate your imput. Believe me I have read that verse in 'chapter context', in Luke as well as in the other gospels. Matt said something most interesting concerning some of the posted opinions.
MAT 26:52 Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
Bob,
quote:
If God wanted all Christians to take a non defense position, there might not be very many Christians around today.
I'd say history disagrees. The church has always flourished in the times of deadly persecution. Personally I think the churches of America could be a whole lot emptier...and we'd have the same number of 'Christians' that we had before they left. 
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/13/2008 3:27:15 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1142
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
MAT 26:52 Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
this was about using the sword in matters that were spiritual. life and death for all of mankind were on the line. the disciples were trying to defend the life of Jesus with a sword. this was a spiritual matter, not a criminal matter. swords were for criminals, Jesus was not a criminal, (Jesus' statement to those coming to get him) and His enemies were carrying out
God's purpose. the sword was not to interfere with God's purpose.
< Message edited by OLEEguacamole -- 6/13/2008 3:40:06 PM >
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Sell your mantle and buy a sword? - 6/13/2008 3:33:32 PM
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wintery
Posts: 1346
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
wintery,
I appreciate your imput. Believe me I have read that verse in 'chapter context', in Luke as well as in the other gospels. Matt said something most interesting concerning some of the posted opinions.
MAT 26:52 Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
Him4all,
I really think this is a ... two-edged sword, as the best term. Christianity was not to become the religion of the sword. The sword still has its place though. He literally needed to put the sword in its place with that incident, after telling them to prepare and that some would need swords. Two out of eleven had 'em. It's just a tool like anything else with a proper and improper usages.
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