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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/25/2008 11:12:38 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 666
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fallenstar
Abortion is a stirring up some monsterous trouble, the upcoming election and such. I have a few very important things I need to to state, to start. Teenagers have every right, even more a right than adults (I'm 23, by the way) because they are usually the ones who get pregnant and want an abortion. They don't have a career, and for some girls, if they got pregnant, they would be kicked out of their home forever. I know their are shelters and stuff, but that woun't get them into college. After they have the baby and it's taken away from them, their kicked out on the streets again. Men, you can NEVER get pregnant, you will NEVER know what's it's like to be a woman, and you WILL NEVER be able\have to get an abortion, so stop throwing yourselves at the issue. As a matter of fact, I don't think men should have a say. Some just get their girlfriend pregnant, and then ditch her and the child. I know not all men are like that, but that's just how I feel. I am currently pro-choice, but before you go bashing up on me, I do have a few conditions.
I believe a woman should only get an abortion if she was raped, will die in childbirth, is under the age of 18, or is emotionally unstable and cannot handle the stress that comes with pregnancy. Some think that's a long list, some don't. I don't care, it's what I belive is right. I'll now explain for the people who want to tell me off right now.Emotionally unstable women who get pregnant are on pills that will hurt the baby. They can't get an abortion and so they have to get off anti-depressants (sp) or else the doctor could report them for some kind of "child abuse" or somthing. They kill themselves, and it's two lives lost insted of one. Under the age of 18, she is just a dumb teenager and made a stupid mistake she isn't old enough to pay for, and I think she deserves another chance before she has to throw her life away. Forcing a woman to give birth even though her body cannot handle it is murder. If you force a woman to have a baby when she got pregnant from rape, you are just as bad as the man who raped her. Now I'm not saying people on anti depressants and teens and rape victims have to abort their babies, but that that abortion is an option. I believe the baby is a living human and aborton should be only emergencys. Using abortion as a form of birth control is just sick. But if you have anything different to say, an oppinion you would like to put out, feel free to express it here.
This rant misses the underlying problem, which is young men and women keeping it in their pants. If they can not handle the responsibility of what happens when people have sex, then they should not be having sex. Which is why God said sex is for the married couple and not for horny teenagers.
Oh and by the way, coming from one who was on the other side of an abortion, who had no say, and was subsequently traumatized by it, and had nightmares of a faceless girl calling for her daddy, I would say that the man should have a say in this situation. We are affected also.
< Message edited by SavedByGraceMD -- 6/25/2008 11:20:00 PM >
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/26/2008 8:52:59 PM
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Kath
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quote:
But I also believe this gov't is too corrupt and evil. They should not be deciding who dies. Too many times it has been proven people were innocent of the crimes they were accused of.
If they are evil enough to slaughter innocent babies, they surely slaughter innocent people.
I understand the intent behind your analogy but lets make sure we don't turn this thread into one on the Death Penalty. Thanks!
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/27/2008 12:27:25 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 2168
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Still waiting for somebody from the pro-death side of the aisle to come up with a Scripture that supports their beleif that ripping unborn babies from the womb in the name of convenience is acceptable and good in the eyes of God.
And waiting.....and waiting......
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/27/2008 2:29:42 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 305
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From: Ottawa
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quote:
And waiting.....and waiting......
I'm not sure there's any pro-death people on this thread, so you're probably going to be waiting a good while.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/27/2008 2:45:12 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2304
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
Still waiting for somebody from the pro-death side of the aisle to come up with a Scripture that supports their beleif that ripping unborn babies from the womb in the name of convenience is acceptable and good in the eyes of God.
And waiting.....and waiting......
I'm waiting for people from the pro-life side to do the same.  I've been following sometimes but not saying much... I still think the thread is pointless because people aren't upset that you disagree with God... they're upset because you disagree with what they think that God must think... and no one has supporting Scripture other than hints.
Although if there is no person that is killed, then there is no wrong. People who believe that personhood begins later are pro-life; at or after the point at which personhood begins in the womb, you can't have an abortion. They are against killing people, but biology is not equivalent to personhood. They are pro-life too. After there is a person it's murder even to them. So (for example) after brain function begins, which is quite early, if you have an abortion you've still murdered someone. The difference is that personhood begins later than conception, not before or at that point. Genomes aren't equivalent to souls.
Neither side here has brought Scripture to prove they're right. NEITHER side has, and neither side has proven what God thinks other than that God must think the way they think.
People here aren't pro-death by being for abortions in some cases (except maybe the OP). They are pro-life, but their definitions of life (personhood) are not the same as yours. So you'd label them a murdered even though you don't know if you're right or wrong. There's still a point to everyone here (that I see) at which you can't have an abortion without it being murder.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/27/2008 3:00:39 PM
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tafkam
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Solo-soprano.....quite the contrary, there has been ample scripture given in this thread as to the fact that God places value on pre-born life....those of you on the other side conveniently overlook it because if you acknowledge it, you no longer have an argument.
Bottom line is that when it comes to "when does life begin", pro-lifers err on the side of caution, and life. Pro-abortionists take that God given right into their own hands and decide what works for them.
As has been stated elsewhere, you have to jump through a veritable myriad of hoops in orer to justify such an atrocity as abortion....
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/27/2008 3:08:43 PM
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DenimDiva
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So if we use Scriptures such as "I knew you before you were formed in the womb," does that mean that birth control is wrong too?
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/27/2008 3:31:04 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 2168
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If there is no life, there is no death. There are umpteen ways to prevent pregnancy.
But once the life cycle is started, any termination of that cycle is the ending of a life.
Somebody made the comment, isn't it odd how all those in favor of abortion are in no danger of being abortion victims themselves?
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/29/2008 2:46:58 PM
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solo_soprano22
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I just went back and read the whole OP, so this is basically in response to Fallen.
Fallen, it seems like you are pro-choice but still believe it's murder. Most Christians who I run into who are pro-choice don't believe that the embryo is a person yet, thus abortion isn't sinful up to a certain point. After that point it's murder. So, it's odd that I run into a Christian who's pro-choice yet still believes it's sinful. There are some books about why Christians are and can be pro-choice, but if you google something like "the Biblical pro-choice position" or "the Bible is pro-choice" I'm sure some things will come up that present arguments for those interested in morality and ethics to think about (I have used religioustolerance sources in bioethics, so that might be good too). Give them a read and evaluate why you believe the way you do, and whether or not it's Biblical or you just believe it because that's what you were taught that God thinks or were taught in church, etc. There are plenty of pro-choice Christians out there, but I have to say I haven't seen many of those who believe that it's murder or sinful. Those who believe it's murderous after conception are pro-life. Those who believe otherwise call themselves either, but just have to explain when life begins to them. Than after that "life" point, it becomes sinful. That point is just not always conception or implantation.
But in your OP, you mention that abortion should not be used as birth control, but before that you mentioned a myriad of scenarios in which an abortion would be just that. If you believe that abortion is always wrong, then using it as any birth control should be wrong also. (Even if you made a mistake.)
< Message edited by solo_soprano22 -- 6/29/2008 2:57:48 PM >
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/1/2008 3:36:01 PM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 354
Joined: 3/10/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
Still waiting for somebody from the pro-death side of the aisle to come up with a Scripture that supports their beleif that ripping unborn babies from the womb in the name of convenience is acceptable and good in the eyes of God.
And waiting.....and waiting......
I'm waiting for people from the pro-life side to do the same. I've been following sometimes but not saying much... I still think the thread is pointless because people aren't upset that you disagree with God... they're upset because you disagree with what they think that God must think... and no one has supporting Scripture other than hints.
As has been said, there has been plenty posted showing that God values the unborn. As far as a verse, "You shall not murder" is one.
quote:
Although if there is no person that is killed, then there is no wrong. People who believe that personhood begins later are pro-life; at or after the point at which personhood begins in the womb, you can't have an abortion. They are against killing people, but biology is not equivalent to personhood. They are pro-life too. After there is a person it's murder even to them. So (for example) after brain function begins, which is quite early, if you have an abortion you've still murdered someone. The difference is that personhood begins later than conception, not before or at that point. Genomes aren't equivalent to souls.
Neither side here has brought Scripture to prove they're right. NEITHER side has, and neither side has proven what God thinks other than that God must think the way they think.
People here aren't pro-death by being for abortions in some cases (except maybe the OP). They are pro-life, but their definitions of life (personhood) are not the same as yours. So you'd label them a murdered even though you don't know if you're right or wrong. There's still a point to everyone here (that I see) at which you can't have an abortion without it being murder.
Citing "personhood" is just playing word games and is an excuse. Life is either present or not. I have not seen where you have given the "certain point" where abortion is no longer okay. Just saying it is when brain function begins is not enough unless you can somehow prove that this is for sure where a soul/life becomes present and unless you can pinpoint where that point is in every situation. Would it be the same in every situation? Why or why not?
As has also been said, erring on the side of caution is the only stance that should be taken; otherwise you are gambling with a child's life.
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See for Yourself
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/1/2008 8:21:08 PM
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Dona Nobis Pacem
Posts: 138
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From: FL
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I asked these questions a couple of pages back with little or no response from those who are pro-abortion.
If God told Jeremiah
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I dedicated you, a prophet to the nations I appointed you."
then
Why do you think it's OK to take an unborn life ?
People seem to be saying that up until a certain point abortion is ok, arguing that there is no person or soul until some given time.
If that is so how did God know Jeremiah before he was formed in the womb? What was there to know if there was no person or soul?
Along with that same argument:
When does an acorn become an oak ?
The answer is an acorn is an oak.
When does a fertilized egg become human?
A fertilized egg is human, there is nothing else added to it
to make it "become" human, everything necessary is present.
It is simply in a different stage of life.
Just like an infant, teenager, and adult are all human, just
at different stages.
Peace,
DNP
_____________________________
Pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion,
Have mercy on us, and on the whole world.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/1/2008 8:33:29 PM
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Dona Nobis Pacem
Posts: 138
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From: FL
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quote:
There are plenty of pro-choice Christians out there, but I have to say I haven't seen many of those who believe that it's murder or sinful
That is the danger of moral relativism.
Anyone interested should check out Veritatis Splendor (The Splendor of Truth) which addressess such issues.
There is truth we are bound to follow, whether we personally agree with it or not.
Some people believe that there is nothing wrong with keeping the extra money when a clerk gives you too much change, but just because THEY believe it's OK doesn't make it right.
Peace,
DNP
_____________________________
Pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion,
Have mercy on us, and on the whole world.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/2/2008 4:36:36 PM
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macokjc
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This is what I honestly don't understand - how can somebody who has been pregnant and felt a baby kick, hiccup, respond to voices or touch still believe that a baby is not a life. There is so much else that could be said, but I just don't understand how someone who has experienced the miracle of pregnancy and birth could still vote in favor of killing other babies.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/6/2008 5:04:07 PM
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1970rodney
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Most people I've met who are pro-choice say that it's a fetus till a certain point then all at once presto chango it's a baby. When we say it's not a baby from the moment of conception that makes that life unimportant to society which makes us one step away from euthanizing our ederly once they become unproductive members of society. Murder is murder.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/6/2008 5:51:54 PM
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BelovedHandMaiden
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I think the following verse states absolutely that God is in control, even of "fetuses" (I hate that word). I am definitely PRO LIFE!
Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Jeremiah 1:4-6
_____________________________
Sign on Church: The Rapture - True separation of church and state.
<--- My beloved Piwacket.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/6/2008 5:56:21 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 305
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
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quote:
Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Jeremiah 1:4-6
We've discussed this verse previously. I don't think any Christian on either side of the debate challenges that God does not possess foreknowledge and make his plans in advance. But this doesn't seem relevant to the issue at hand. God also says he knew Jeremiah before conception, but no one would argue that people are also fully human beings before conception.
< Message edited by fiat_lux -- 7/6/2008 11:53:27 PM >
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/8/2008 12:38:06 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1088
Joined: 11/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1970rodney
Most people I've met who are pro-choice say that it's a fetus till a certain point then all at once presto chango it's a baby. When we say it's not a baby from the moment of conception that makes that life unimportant to society which makes us one step away from euthanizing our ederly once they become unproductive members of society. Murder is murder.
It's a line drawn just where they want it. The people they want to kill are on one side and those like themselves are on the other.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/11/2008 5:00:47 PM
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DreadPirateRandy
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52 million children have never seen life at the hand of abortionists. 52 million children will never have the chance to experience a life filled with their Creator.
If you believe that's "OK" with God, I will not hesitate to call you a liar.
_____________________________
Cynicism is an unpleasant way of saying the truth.
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