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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/16/2008 4:56:51 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 2170
Joined: 9/23/2005
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quote:
Then refusing to have sex with someone is murder. Because when you refuse to have sex with someone - the baby that would have been borned, never is, and therefore, dies
What a ridiculous argument. The sperm and egg never got together to form the life in the first place. You missed Basic Biology, didn't you?
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I'm against abortion. But that doesn't mean I'm against it being illegal.
Don't you love comments that begin with "Well, I'm against such-and-such, BUT...." Kinda tells you where the speaker or poster is really coming from....
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The fact that I myself never want to get an abortion - doesn't mean I have to force everyone on that for themselves.
I don't want to murder my neighbor, so I guess I shouldn't want to force that on everyone else, right?
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They may go to back-alley abortionists for 1, and do it the hard way, which could be considerably more painful.
I notice you're not particularly concerned about how painful it is for the one being aborted.
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It's possible to be morally against abortion but not in favor of making abortions against the law.
Not if you come down on the side of life.
Boy, just when you think you've heard it all, someone new comes along with some doozies.....
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/16/2008 4:58:48 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 2170
Joined: 9/23/2005
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quote:
Washing your hands is the willful taking of human life. Thousands of previously-living human skin cells die in the process. Intentionally giving yourself a paper cut is the willful taking of human life since the red blood cells that die are human
I was going to reply to more of these babblings, but I've come to the conclusion that Neal2 cannot possibly be serious and he's just amusing himself at the expense of a very serious issue.....
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/16/2008 5:06:02 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2304
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Neal2
But I think for religious purposes, you will all draw the line on whether the soul is formed or not.
That's the point that many Christians have, but who can say when that is? People want to say it's conception; people want to say it's implantation; people want to say it's breathing, or blood, or onset of brain function. The Bible doesn't tell us when personhood begins; that's one reason why even Christians have diverse opinions.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/16/2008 5:08:03 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 305
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From: Ottawa
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quote:
Scripture may not specifically address abortion, but it does make absolutely clear that God places value on pre-born life.
I'd love to agree, but everything you've cited is poetry - relevant, certainly, but if there was absolute certainty on this issue in the Old Testament, it ought to be found in the laws - after all, their purpose was to provide that absolute certainty through an extremely detailed framework. And those laws seem to suggest something quite different, given that they don't describe the death of a fetus as murder (at most, under certain circumstances it requires a fine or civil punishment), and in at least one instance seem to imply a forced miscarriage as part of a test for adultery.
Yet I'm sure we'd agree that adultery isn't really much of an excuse for having an abortion today.
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Psalm 139:13-15
"You did form my inward parts, you knit me together in my mother's womb...you knew me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret..."
Jeremiah1:4-5
"Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you."
These verses say that God knows how human beings are made; he doesn't say, in being made, at what point they fully become life. The Jeremiah passage even says that God knows us before we are formed, i.e. God has foreknowledge of who we will be, which doesn't really seem relevant to the matter at hand. (Same with the Isaiah passage, which I haven't quoted here.)
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Psalm 127:3
"Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is His reward."
Again, this doesn't specify anything about life in the womb; it just says that God rewards us with children.
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Can you give me any Scriptural reference that reduces unborn children to a "choice" of whether or not to kill them?
For what it's worth, I'm not trying to say that abortions are good. I'm just saying Scripture isn't as clear on the issue as people have suggested it is.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/16/2008 5:19:30 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3745
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
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What they believe doesn't change what is right and wrong... Abortion is cold blooded murder and simply believing life starts here or there doesn't change that and it will not suffice as an excuse on Judgment day...
Thus far we appear to be lacking a clear Biblical teaching to support your position here. Until we can find one, "beliefs" do matter - including your belief - because that seems to be most of what we have to go on.
I think I'd be glad if there is one, though.
Do I really need to bother posting on a Christian forum biblical support that abortion is murder and that God more than frowns on the cold blooded murder of unborn children?
I'd be glad if one didn't have to "debate" with other Christians the issue of abortion...
John
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/16/2008 5:23:25 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3745
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Neal2
Then refusing to have sex with someone is murder. Because when you refuse to have sex with someone - the baby that would have been borned, never is, and therefore, dies.
Wonderful logic... Please explain how what never existed can can be killed...
John
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/16/2008 5:25:08 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2304
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From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
quote:
Psalm 139:13-15
"You did form my inward parts, you knit me together in my mother's womb...you knew me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret..."
Jeremiah1:4-5
"Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you."
These verses say that God knows how human beings are made; he doesn't say, in being made, at what point they fully become life. The Jeremiah passage even says that God knows us before we are formed, i.e. God has foreknowledge of who we will be, which doesn't really seem relevant to the matter at hand. (Same with the Isaiah passage, which I haven't quoted here.).
I've said that many times. People try to use these to "prove" when personhood begins...but even when you look at the verses you have no answer. And the person who was using it usually still has no answer other than "what they think."  Forknowledge doesn't equal personhood; apparently many Christians think so. And apparently biological life is the same as personhood to many Christians. I hold that science can't tell us morality; I hear the very same "life begins at conception" people try to use science for THEIR point (namely biology/genetics), but turn around and say science can't tell us what is ethical or moral.
People can believe that biological life is personhood, but people can also believe otherwise. One can say til they're blue in the face that abortion is murder, but when does personhood begin, other than in your opinion?
("Your" being anyone in general.)
< Message edited by solo_soprano22 -- 6/16/2008 5:32:57 PM >
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/16/2008 5:28:16 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3745
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Neal2
I'm against abortion. But that doesn't mean I'm against it being illegal. The fact that I myself never want to get an abortion - doesn't mean I have to force everyone on that for themselves.
You're kidding yourself...
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Why should a law be passed to make it a crime to get an abortion? Why put a woman in jail for that?
Because it's unlawfully taking a life...
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If abortions were illegal, and no such practicing doctor would do it, and women wanted to get an abortion, they will do it the illegal way. They may go to back-alley abortionists for 1, and do it the hard way, which could be considerably more painful.
It shouldn't be easy to kill someone...
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But if abortion were legal, they could get abortions the safer way. Do you think making abortions illegal will stop women from wanting an abortion when they're pregnant?
It's not right... It doesn't matter if it stopped one abortion, it's murder and it shouldn't be legal...
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But the opinion of morality of abortion and opinion on the legality of abortion are different things. It's possible to be morally against abortion but not in favor of making abortions against the law .
Only if you believe that secular reasoning is the last word on taking a life... I believe the word of God would beg to differ...
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If this were a topic on the morality of abortion, I'm against it. But if it were a topic on the legality of abortion, and whether you think it should be illegal or not, I would not want it to be illegal.
Can't serve two masters...
John
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/16/2008 5:33:29 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3745
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
People can believe that biological life is personhood, but people can also believe otherwise. One can say til they're blue in the face that abortion is murder, but when does personhood begin, other than in your opinion?
People can pretend to hide their support for murder in science, doubt and what they believe, but in the end they will have to answer for it... Anyone that thinks Christ could stand over a five gallon bucket with the aborted remains of a child and pat the people on the back and tell well done faithful servant are in grave denial and haven’t even the slightest fear of God…
John
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 6/16/2008 5:40:57 PM >
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/16/2008 5:52:50 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 941
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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Neal,
For argument's sake... Why risk it? If we cannot, as you seem to believe, prove from Scripture where life begins, then do you feel safe risking a life just because it might be OK?
Those who are against abortion because they believe life begins at conception are in the clear - even if life does begin at a certain, later point, they are innocent of shedding innocent blood.
But those who are pro-abortion because they believe life begins latter on in the process, if they are wrong, I don't think God will accept a "But I believed it was OK!" as an excuse.
Considering human lives are potentially on the line, I think erring on the side of caution is preferable.
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/16/2008 5:58:41 PM
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Kath
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Neal2
Please email community@salemwebnetwork.com concerning the status of your account. Please allow time for a response.
Please do not post under this handle or any other until you have heard from the administrator.
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Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/16/2008 6:26:08 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 305
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
Status: offline
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quote:
Do I really need to bother posting on a Christian forum biblical support that abortion is murder and that God more than frowns on the cold blooded murder of unborn children?
Clear Biblical support for this viewpoint would be a most useful starting point, I should think. Especially since this is a Christian forum. I've merely asked whether there is a clear teaching in the Bible on this issue. Thus far I don't see one.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/16/2008 7:44:44 PM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 6130
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
quote:
I'm against abortion. But that doesn't mean I'm against it being illegal.
Don't you love comments that begin with "Well, I'm against such-and-such, BUT...." Kinda tells you where the speaker or poster is really coming from....
I don't agree with abortion, and I don't believe it should be legal, but my problem is this...what are we as a society, as a church doing to reach out to the women who have been raped, or are 15 and didn't understand the severity of her actions? How are we showing them a better way than abortion? How are we teaching them about Christ through this?
We the church are failing here. And until we the church stand up and start fighting for these women instead of calling them murderers, it will never change, and we will continue to have multitudes of abortions.
_____________________________
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/16/2008 7:53:45 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2304
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
quote:
Do I really need to bother posting on a Christian forum biblical support that abortion is murder and that God more than frowns on the cold blooded murder of unborn children?
Clear Biblical support for this viewpoint would be a most useful starting point, I should think. Especially since this is a Christian forum. I've merely asked whether there is a clear teaching in the Bible on this issue. Thus far I don't see one.
Agreed. I'd rather someone say "this is my opinion" and I think this is right, rather than say that the Bible says that personhood begins at conception. It does not, but I've seen many Christians say that God said that (in the Bible).
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/16/2008 7:55:30 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 305
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
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quote:
I merely saying if there is even a question if abortion is ok with God on a Christian forum that is a far bigger issue than your request for clear biblical support... Might as well being asking for clear biblical support for God, Himself...
John
If someone asked that second question in good faith on this forum, I'd be happy to discuss it.
In the meantime I'll settle for the more limited question, because I think it is relevant, and because thus far the concerns or criticisms I've raised on that point seem to have gone unaddressed. There has been a great deal said here about what is said to be crystal clear, yet the Biblical bases for these discussion seem somewhat clear, at least so far.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/16/2008 7:56:43 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3745
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
I don't agree with abortion, and I don't believe it should be legal, but my problem is this...what are we as a society, as a church doing to reach out to the women who have been raped, or are 15 and didn't understand the severity of her actions?
Rape and 15 year old girls(who should know better) are not the even close to the comman whys and who gets abortions...
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How are we showing them a better way than abortion?
First by not supporting the murder of unborn children...
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How are we teaching them about Christ through this?
Certainly not by sugar coating the act of murder... It's a SERIOUS offense in the eyes of God...
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We the church are failing here.
Nope... It's the not the fault of the church that people believe it's ok to murder unborn children...
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And until we the church stand up and start fighting for these women instead of calling them murderers, it will never change, and we will continue to have multitudes of abortions.
If you are not going to call those who pay someone to kill an unborn child a murderer I hope you don't call anyone who takes a life outside the womb unlawfully a murderer for the sake of being consistant...
John
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/16/2008 8:03:46 PM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 6130
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
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Oh my...you completely missed my point. *sigh*
Let me start over. Aside from condemnation, what are we as a church going to do to support women who are considering abortion? Are we going to constantly tell them that murder is a sin and if they do it they are murderers, or are we going to show them a better way...consider adoption, consider raising the child without government assistance and how to get established either way?
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/16/2008 8:21:00 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 941
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Aside from condemnation, what are we as a church going to do to support women who are considering abortion? Are we going to constantly tell them that murder is a sin and if they do it they are murderers, or are we going to show them a better way...consider adoption, consider raising the child without government assistance and how to get established either way?
TInkerbell, I like where you're going, and I agree. The Church needs to reach out in love on this issue. Abortion is certainly wrong, but that doesn't mean God does not love those who have either had abortions, or are considering having them.
In terms of moving the world away from choosing abortion, I think it would be much more effective to do so by showcasing to them the awesome love of Christ, and the better, more complete way He would have us living - that is, in regards to this particular issue, in a way that places worth and value on ALL life; that of the unborn child, plus the mother as well.
Instead of effectively screaming "God hates you when you kill your baby!", perhaps we should be saying, and showing by our actions, that God loves them, and their babies.
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/16/2008 8:40:29 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2304
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
quote:
I merely saying if there is even a question if abortion is ok with God on a Christian forum that is a far bigger issue than your request for clear biblical support... Might as well being asking for clear biblical support for God, Himself...
John
If someone asked that second question in good faith on this forum, I'd be happy to discuss it.
In the meantime I'll settle for the more limited question, because I think it is relevant, and because thus far the concerns or criticisms I've raised on that point seem to have gone unaddressed. There has been a great deal said here about what is said to be crystal clear, yet the Biblical bases for these discussion seem somewhat clear, at least so far.
A majority of the Christians I know who believe life=conception think it's crystal clear (according to the Bible). I think if it were there would be verses to back it up. Some answers are clear in the Bible, but this isn't one. I think it's a lie to tell people that the Bible says that personhood begins at conception. I hear Christians saying it often though.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/16/2008 8:45:38 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3745
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
Oh my...you completely missed my point. *sigh*
Let me start over. Aside from condemnation, what are we as a church going to do to support women who are considering abortion? Are we going to constantly tell them that murder is a sin and if they do it they are murderers, or are we going to show them a better way...consider adoption, consider raising the child without government assistance and how to get established either way?
I didn't miss your point... The blame the church we have to give them something else to stop abortion is very common point... Problem is you point assumes most abortions are due to rape and 15 years who had no clue that sex could lead to getting pregnant. Those are the exceptions. If you want the church to really deal with the problem at least deal with the reality of the situation and not the very few exceptions...
As for constantly telling them that murder is a sin, given that about 3500 unborn children are murdered in cold blood daily it seems it's not said enough. Would you speak the same about about people who killed 3500 people daily outside the womb?
John
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