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RE: Does God love Satan? - 7/2/2008 4:10:06 PM
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SinnerSaved
Posts: 305
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Belfast, N. Ireland
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Psalms274
I am not sure you read what I wrote ... God indeed hates deeds. But I have yet to find a scripture that talks about Him hating the ones He created. I looked at every passage with the word hate in it ... it simply does not say He hated a man or Satan. There is a difference between hating something and hating someone.
Malachi 1:3
And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Proverbs 6:17-19
These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
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"No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
John Donne
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RE: Does God love Satan? - 7/2/2008 4:52:02 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2135
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Psalms274
I just can't see a God who "never changes" can go from loving a creature He made to hating that creature. I think we attempt to put God in our own little box that fits the our own belief system.
Changing His mind is not changing His character or nature.
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love.ben
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RE: Does God love Satan? - 7/2/2008 4:54:34 PM
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Psalms274
Posts: 945
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I will not come back ... I am pretty sure. 
quote:
Malachi 1:3
And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
I already addressed one of the the 2 passages on Esau (post 91) ... in both the term hate is relative as a way to compare to another ... Jacob ... In Deut 2 it talks about the blessings that God gave to Esau ... he charged His people not to drive the people of Esau out because He, God, had given them the land ... you have to reconcile the two in order to understand the full meaning God was writing to us.
quote:
Mal 1:3. hated--not positively, but relatively; that is, did not choose him out to be the object of gratuitous favor, as I did Jacob (compare Luke 14:26 , with Matthew 10:37 , Genesis 29:30 Genesis 29:31 , Deuteronomy 21:15 Deuteronomy 21:16 ).
Mal 1:3 and Romas 9:13 have been misused by the KKK to justify biblical hatred of a group of people ... and it doesn't say God hated Esau in the same sense of the word we are use to ... you have to go both to the hebrew of the word used to get the true meaning, and to the context of the text to find the true message.
quote:
Proverbs 6:17-19
These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
This is not a reference to a someone but to a something.
< Message edited by Psalms274 -- 7/2/2008 5:15:00 PM >
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I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
< Linus w/ a friends baby!
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RE: Does God love Satan? - 7/2/2008 5:02:24 PM
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Psalms274
Posts: 945
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quote:
Changing His mind is not changing His character or nature.
And how is that different? When we change our mind about something, it means we were either wrong about the first choice or wrong about the second choice.
_____________________________
I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
< Linus w/ a friends baby!
http://piswa.blogspot.com/
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RE: Does God love Satan? - 7/2/2008 6:42:35 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5643
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Psalms274
I think we attempt to put God in our own little box that fits the our own belief system.
It's more akin to acknowledging that God has placed Himself in a box (His Word - the Bible) to how He choose to reveal Himself to us humans..
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Does God love Satan? - 7/2/2008 6:45:27 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Psalms274
quote:
Changing His mind is not changing His character or nature.
And how is that different? When we change our mind about something, it means we were either wrong about the first choice or wrong about the second choice.
Genesis 6:6, “The LORD was grieved that He had made man on the earth, and His heart was filled with pain.”
Also, Jonah 3:10 which says, “When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, He had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction He had threatened.”
Similarly, Exodus 32:14 proclaims, “Then the LORD relented and did not bring on His people the disaster He had threatened.”
These verses speak of the Lord “repenting” of something, and seem to be contrary to verses that teach that God is unchanging. However, close examination of these passages reveals that these are not truly indications that God is capable of changing. In the original language, the word that is translated as “repent,” or “relent,” is the Hebrew expression of “to be sorry for.”
Being sorry for something does not mean that a change has occurred; it simply means that there is regret for something that has taken place. Just some food for thought about what you two were discussing.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE:http://media.salemwebnetwork.com/forums/micons/m1.gi... - 7/2/2008 7:05:55 PM
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Psalms274
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quote:
These verses speak of the Lord “repenting” of something, and seem to be contrary to verses that teach that God is unchanging. However, close examination of these passages reveals that these are not truly indications that God is capable of changing. In the original language, the word that is translated as “repent,” or “relent,” is the Hebrew expression of “to be sorry for.”
(I was wondering if anyone would pick up on that one ... in fact was thinking about those very scriptures. )
I agree ... and that is my point ... just as when reading about "but hated Esau" you have to look at the context and original language.
quote:
It's more akin to acknowledging that God has placed Himself in a box (His Word - the Bible) to how He choose to reveal Himself to us humans..
I agree again ... the thing is rather than really digging, we often look at His word through the filter of our own belief system.
_____________________________
I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
< Linus w/ a friends baby!
http://piswa.blogspot.com/
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God does NOT love Satan? - 7/2/2008 7:10:18 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Psalms274
I agree again ... the thing is rather than really digging, we often look at His word through the filter of our own belief system.
Context is key... God does not love Satan.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Does God love Satan? - 7/2/2008 7:42:26 PM
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9drtr
Posts: 1578
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Psalms274
Yes he is a different being ... but God's character remains the same. And in each of the 82 references in the bible to the word hate, only one is used for God saying He hates another ... when He states "Esau He hated" in Romans 9:13. Looking at a number of commentaries on Romans 9:13:
quote:
The Hebrew idiom according to Rienecker can mean "I prefer Jacob to Esau". In other words in context God choose Jacob even though Esau was the firstborn. Don't forget though that Esau sold his birthright for a mess of porridge -- he despised his birthright (Ge25:34)
quote:
"Hate" (3404) (miseo from misos = hatred) means to dislike strongly or to love less.
quote:
Hate is a relative term as employed here (referring to Romans 9:13). Jesus used the same word in a similar way when He cautioned that a man must hate his father and mother if he would come to Christ (Lu14:26). Obviously Jesus, who was an advocate of the Law (Ex 20:12), was not encouraging "hate" in the usual sense of the word. But through a consecrated use of the hyperbole of antithesis, Jesus is saying that the love a man has for Christ ought to dwarf his love for his father to the extent that the latter would seem to be "hate" by comparison. Hatred in this sense is not absolute but relative to a higher choice.
quote:
God did not "hate" Esau in the conventional sense of the word. In fact, He greatly prospered and favored him (Ge27:38-40). Esau did receive earthly blessings, as he himself testified (Ge33:9.)
However, God's favor and blessing upon Jacob was so extensive that by comparison Esau would appear to be hated. The verse could be understood to mean that God has chosen Jacob to fulfill His elective purpose, but He has passed over Esau. Keep in mind that Esau rejected God.
So we can see that God doesn't seem to hate anyone in the same way we are used to seeing the word.
It's a tough thing to do, but we need to remember that He is not a man ... "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD."
I think that God does not hate Satan for two reasons:
1. As indicated above, I have severe reservations about the meaning in context of the word "hate." Context is everything.
2. I am fully aware that God is not human and is not bound by either our limited capacity for love not by our limited capacity to understand Him.
To expand on point 2, I am not God. I am aware that I am not God. I do not think that God thinks, feels, or responds the way I do. Personally, I do hate Satan. I hate, loathe, abhor and despise Satan with an abiding passion. But God is so far beyond me that I am not certain that I can begin to comprehend God's emotions in this, or in many other areas. Further, God's love does not depend on our deserving it; I do not deserve God's love any more than any of you do. God's love is not earned, but given. Lest there remain any confusion, God has condemned Satan now and forever, and there is no appeal from that sentence.
But most importantly, I will not speak for God for fear I am wrong. That includes declaring absolutely that a certain Bible passage means something I want it to mean while there remains any doubt. God is a living being, not words in a book, even the Bible.
< Message edited by 9drtr -- 7/4/2008 3:52:17 PM >
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Edwin
When we know who is coming, how can we worry about what is coming? When the last hour belongs to us, how can we worry about the next minute?
Ross Crighton
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RE: God does NOT love Satan? - 7/2/2008 9:48:37 PM
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9drtr
Posts: 1578
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
quote:
ORIGINAL: Psalms274
I for one will not be putting words in God's mouth ... which is what you do when you make the statement "God does not love Satan." That's one of those things He chose not to make clear, which means it probably a non-issue as far as our walk with Him is concerned.
I'm willing to simply say "we don't know" and leave it at that, but I can't go with the other view that God definitely loves Satan. I think it's putting words in God's mouth both ways. Like you said, He didn't choose to make it clear, so we should probably just leave it at that.
And here, folks, we have the voice of true wisdom.
_____________________________
Edwin
When we know who is coming, how can we worry about what is coming? When the last hour belongs to us, how can we worry about the next minute?
Ross Crighton
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RE: God does NOT love Satan? - 7/2/2008 10:00:20 PM
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Dred
Posts: 229
Joined: 10/11/2007
From: Alabama
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quote:
Original: Psalms274
I for one will not be putting words in God's mouth ... which is what you do when you make the statement "God does not love Satan." That's one of those things He chose not to make clear, which means it probably a non-issue as far as our walk with Him is concerned.
I see wisdom here.
Now, "let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds"--Hebrews 10:24
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RE: God does NOT love Satan? - 7/2/2008 10:25:37 PM
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DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 8754
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Psalms274
"God does not love Satan." That's one of those things He chose not to make clear
Really?
Psalm 139:21
Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD, and abhor those who rise up against you?
Psalm 11:5
The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates.
Psalm 81:15
Those who hate the LORD would cringe before him, and their punishment would last forever.
He was clear on hating evil.
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The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.
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RE: Does God love Satan? - 7/3/2008 4:31:22 AM
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DSmitty
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BibleL7
I was wondering if we could perhaps bring context into the picture of the scriptures telling us to love enemies. Jesus is clearly talking about human enemies throughout the passages and not Satan or spiritual enemies
Yeah, I agree with that. I think that there is a balance here because God is love, but like I said in my last post, you don't want to get caught into a mindset that will get you to the place of having an attitude of sympathy for the devil. The bottom line is that the devil is a judged creature with no hope of redemption, who's attitudes and actions toward God and men are only malicious and destructive continually. There's a lot of speculation here about things that God didn't address plainly in His Word, and I think that there's a reason that He didn't. I believe that Lucifer's decision to rebel broke God's heart; but I think that in our flawed nature, thinking of the devil as one whom God loves can lead us to a posture towards the devil that misses the real point and opens the door to some problems for us.
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RE: God does NOT love Satan? - 7/3/2008 8:12:09 AM
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Psalms274
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I want to address looking at passages to find what may seem to back up an argument, when in fact, if you look closely, are being twisted to mean what an individual wants them to mean ... we all need to look at His word from the vantage point of understanding what He is really saying and not impulsively looking at a single verse out of context ...
and sometimes the words may not fit with other passages, which mean you need to dig deapper still to find the consistency in the whole word of God.
quote:
Psalm 139:21
Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD, and abhor those who rise up against you?
This passage is David talking about how he hates those who hate God. It is not God saying He hates another.
quote:
Psalm 11:5
The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates.
Again, you are not looking at the entire context of the passage. As Matthew Henry explains it ... (the bold is a better translation of the verse when looking at the Hebrew language ...
quote:
He is a holy God, and therefore hates them, and cannot endure to look upon them: The wicked, and him that loveth violence, his soul hateth; for nothing is more contrary to the rectitude and goodness of his nature. Their prosperity is so far from being an evidence of God's love that their abuse of it does certainly make them the objects of his hatred. He that hates nothing that he has made, yet hates those who have thus ill-made themselves. Dr. Hammond offers another reading of this verse: The Lord trieth the righteous and the wicked (distinguishes infallibly between them, which is more than we can do), and he that loveth violence hateth his own soul, that is, persecutors bring certain ruin upon themselves (Prov. 8:36), as follows here.
quote:
Psalm 81:15
Those who hate the LORD would cringe before him, and their punishment would last forever.
This does not state He hates the one He created ... it says those who hat God cringe and will lasting punishment ...
The bible does not say that God hates Satan ... just as it does not say He loves Satan ... and as stated earlier ... if it was not important to God to make it clear ... it probably is not an issue.
quote:
He was clear on hating evil.
Yes, He does hate evil ... but evil is not a someone, it is a something. There is a difference.
_____________________________
I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
< Linus w/ a friends baby!
http://piswa.blogspot.com/
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RE: Does God love Satan? - 7/3/2008 12:36:09 PM
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Dred
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DSmitty
I think that there is a balance here because God is love, but like I said in my last post, you don't want to get caught into a mindset that will get you to the place of having an attitude of sympathy for the devil.
Wasn't that a Rolling Stones tune? I can't recall anything about the lyrics.
_____________________________
"We count any belief in Him, even the smallest belief, better than any belief about Him." --from Robert Falconer, by George MacDonald
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RE: God does NOT love Satan? - 7/3/2008 12:59:20 PM
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Dred
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Pslam274 gave us a Matthew Henry quote. The thought expressed in the following sentence had been on my mind.
quote:
He that hates nothing that he has made, yet hates those who have thus ill-made themselves.
It is logical that a creator loves what He has created. I don't want to get into a pointless argument with those who deny we have some kind of "free will". Those who vehemently deny it certainly are free to do so, but I believe that God's sentient creatures have some sort of individual will and, consequently, participate in their own making as they grow.
If I may play devil's advocate just for a moment, is there something still in the devil which God made and is thus good? Is there some irreducible core of being in all of God's creatures which cannot be unmade and which He continues to love? Undoubtedly, this original core of being may be a very small part of what some beings have become, but it may also be the most fundamental part and that to which they still owe their continued existence.
I have personally had the experience of hating what I have made myself while still having some love for the small part of me which God made and which continues within me. There is still much in me which should be hated and I thank God that He hates that ill-made being so much that He is committed to its destruction so that the well made being He intends may grow.
I've heard it foolishly said that God making you is His gift to you, but what you make of yourself is your gift to God. No, what I made of myself is my insult to God. His destruction of that being and creation of a new creature whom I welcome is His greater gift to me.
_____________________________
"We count any belief in Him, even the smallest belief, better than any belief about Him." --from Robert Falconer, by George MacDonald
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RE: Does God love Satan? - 7/4/2008 2:52:52 AM
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DSmitty
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dred
quote:
ORIGINAL: DSmitty
I think that there is a balance here because God is love, but like I said in my last post, you don't want to get caught into a mindset that will get you to the place of having an attitude of sympathy for the devil.
Wasn't that a Rolling Stones tune? I can't recall anything about the lyrics.
Yeah, it was. I don't know the lyrics either. I remember that it was sung from the devil's perspective and I remember a line that went "I was there when Pontius Pilate washed his hands and sealed his fate". But my point wasn't really to drop a song title... although that would make for an interesting bit of fun, eh? How many song titles can you find in posts?
OK, I'm getting a little off subject... sorry.
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RE: Does God love Satan? - 7/5/2008 4:46:47 PM
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Beth67
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If God created everything, then why did He create Satan? If God knows all, then would He not have already known Satan's intentions before creating him? So why even make Satan, whom I understand was initially an angel? Can it then be said that God was ultimately responsible for sin entering the world? These questions drive me crazy at times!
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RE: God does NOT love Satan? - 7/5/2008 8:39:01 PM
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