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RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial - 6/24/2008 3:11:06 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 305
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From: Ottawa
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quote:
But there help is only temporal. It gives them a fish instead of teaching them how to fish!
This is a separate argument. And while long-term help is needed, so is short-term help. I'm pretty sure that teaching-to-fish proverb doesn't actuall come from the Bible, in any event.
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RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial - 6/24/2008 3:11:16 PM
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bluestone
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From: Saturn
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The city of Orlando is not saying don't feed the homeless. It is saying don't feed them in parks, except twice a year.
_____________________________
"Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are DEAD"
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RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial - 6/24/2008 3:17:06 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2468
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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1 Thess 4:10 - 12 (ESV) 10for that indeed is what you are doing to all the brothers throughout Macedonia. But we urge you, brothers, to do this more and more, 11and to aspire to live quietly, and to mind your own affairs, and to work with your hands, as we instructed you, 12so that you may live£ properly before outsiders and be dependent on no one.
If one is totally unable to work, we have a mandate to care for that person. But in most cases they can do some work. And we need to see that government doesn't needlessly cause the price of goods to increase!
< Message edited by colliefan -- 6/24/2008 3:23:15 PM >
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial - 6/24/2008 3:27:12 PM
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PaleHawkWoman
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Uh,Collie, that passage refers to believers, not the unsaved. The 1st Century church took in many who were not able to work, like widows and orphans, the disabled, but also those who were suffering from mental illness and other non-physical torments. And as far as I know, the Lord himself commanded us to share of what we have with those who have not and He did not limit that to whoever we THINK deserves it.
When it was cold, I have given my own cup of fresh hot coffee to one of the homeless guys under the bridge. No biggie, and I really didn't think of the $1.30 expense. The look of joy on his face and gratitude that I would be kind to him was usually more than enough payback. When we've had luncheons at work I have taken some of the leftovers out to the guys too. And once a worker at a fast food place gave me some food that was about to hit the 30 minute expiration limit, so I gave it to the homeless guys when I got to work. I have also brought some biscuits and ham from home for them on occasion as well. I have a pipestone(catlinite) cross on a beaded leather thong hanging from my rearview window, so my beliefs were known. In giving without condemning or expecting anything in return, I witnessed what Christ has done for me.
Considering that my car has never been broken into at work, tho, maybe I have been paid in kind. There were some folks coming to the office parking lot and breaking into cars, but it wasn't the homeless guys under the bridge doing it. I do remember walking out to my car one day and hearing one of the homeless guys yelling at some young guys to get away from my car.
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RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial - 6/24/2008 3:45:34 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2468
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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Prov 6:6 - 11 (ESV) 6 Go to the ant, O sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise. 7 Without having any chief, officer, or ruler, 8 she prepares her bread in summer and gathers her food in harvest. 9 How long will you lie there, O sluggard? When will you arise from your sleep? 10 A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest, 11 and poverty will come upon you like a robber, and want like an armed man.
Prov 13:4 (ESV) 4 The soul of the sluggard craves and gets nothing, while the soul of the diligent is richly supplied.
Prov 15:19 (ESV) 19 The way of a sluggard is like a hedge of thorns, but the path of the upright is a level highway.
Prov 18:9 (ESV) 9 Whoever is slack in his work is a brother to him who destroys.
Prov 20:4 (ESV) 4 The sluggard does not plow in the autumn; he will seek at harvest and have nothing.
Prov 21:25 (ESV) 25 The desire of the sluggard kills him, for his hands refuse to labor.
Prov 22:13 (ESV) 13 The sluggard says, “There is a lion outside! I shall be killed in the streets!”
Prov 24:30 - 34 (ESV) 30 I passed by the field of a sluggard, by the vineyard of a man lacking sense, 31 and behold, it was all overgrown with thorns; the ground was covered with nettles, and its stone wall was broken down. 32 Then I saw and considered it; I looked and received instruction. 33 A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest, 34 and poverty will come upon you like a robber, and want like an armed man.
Prov 26:13 - 16 (ESV) 13 The sluggard says, “There is a lion in the road! There is a lion in the streets!” 14 As a door turns on its hinges, so does a sluggard on his bed. 15 The sluggard buries his hand in the dish; it wears him out to bring it back to his mouth. 16 The sluggard is wiser in his own eyes than seven men who can answer sensibly.
Prov 19:15 (ESV) 15 Slothfulness casts into a deep sleep, and an idle person will suffer hunger.
1 Thess 5:14 (ESV) 14And we urge you, brothers, admonish the idle,£ encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with them all.
< Message edited by colliefan -- 6/24/2008 4:05:45 PM >
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial - 6/24/2008 6:45:04 PM
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raspberry331
Posts: 6935
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Jesus commanded, "Love your neighbor." When asked to define "neighbor," Jesus expanded the traditional meaning of the word--defining our neighbor as anyone who is in need, including social outcasts: "But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed." (Luke 14:13)
Jesus himself cared for those in need by feeding the hungry. Crowds of four thousand (Mark 8:1-13) and five thousand (Mark 6:30-44) had assembled to listen to Jesus. They soon became hungry. When his disciples suggested that Jesus send the people away to buy food, he responded by saying "I have compassion on these people..." and "you give them something to eat." He proceeded to perform miracles to feed these large crowds of hungry people.
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RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial - 6/24/2008 7:23:29 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1644
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
Prov 6:6 - 11 (ESV) 6 Go to the ant, O sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise. 7 Without having any chief, officer, or ruler, 8 she prepares her bread in summer and gathers her food in harvest. 9 How long will you lie there, O sluggard? When will you arise from your sleep? 10 A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest, 11 and poverty will come upon you like a robber, and want like an armed man.
Prov 13:4 (ESV) 4 The soul of the sluggard craves and gets nothing, while the soul of the diligent is richly supplied.
Prov 15:19 (ESV) 19 The way of a sluggard is like a hedge of thorns, but the path of the upright is a level highway.
Prov 18:9 (ESV) 9 Whoever is slack in his work is a brother to him who destroys.
Prov 20:4 (ESV) 4 The sluggard does not plow in the autumn; he will seek at harvest and have nothing.
Prov 21:25 (ESV) 25 The desire of the sluggard kills him, for his hands refuse to labor.
Prov 22:13 (ESV) 13 The sluggard says, “There is a lion outside! I shall be killed in the streets!”
Prov 24:30 - 34 (ESV) 30 I passed by the field of a sluggard, by the vineyard of a man lacking sense, 31 and behold, it was all overgrown with thorns; the ground was covered with nettles, and its stone wall was broken down. 32 Then I saw and considered it; I looked and received instruction. 33 A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest, 34 and poverty will come upon you like a robber, and want like an armed man.
Prov 26:13 - 16 (ESV) 13 The sluggard says, “There is a lion in the road! There is a lion in the streets!” 14 As a door turns on its hinges, so does a sluggard on his bed. 15 The sluggard buries his hand in the dish; it wears him out to bring it back to his mouth. 16 The sluggard is wiser in his own eyes than seven men who can answer sensibly.
Prov 19:15 (ESV) 15 Slothfulness casts into a deep sleep, and an idle person will suffer hunger.
So in other words, Proverbs is giving the wisdom that if you work hard, you're probably going to eat. If you're lazy, you won't be able to get food on your own.
I don't think anyone here is disputing this wisdom.
quote:
1 Thess 5:14 (ESV) 14And we urge you, brothers, admonish the idle,£ encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with them all.
Verse in full context:
quote:
Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you. Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other. 14And we urge you, brothers, warn those who are idle, encourage the timid, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 15Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always try to be kind to each other and to everyone else.
In context, it is easy to see that the object of "admonish the idle" is the church.
I think that Jesus's clear instructions should override any misinterpretations about whether or not we can (or rather should) give hungry people food:
Matthew 25:
quote:
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
If a Christian can agree that feeding someone who is hungry is wrong (note that this is different than giving someone who is hungry money), then I really question whether empathy and compassion are truly tenets of our faith. Naturally, the physical food should come with spiritual food, as well.
In any case, if Orlando wins this court case, and if Pat Robertson leaned to the left half as much as he leaned to the right, he might say something like what he said to Dover after the Board of Education got rid of ID in schools:
quote:
"I'd like to say to the good citizens of Dover: If there is a disaster in your area, don't turn to God. You just rejected him from your city."
Fortunately, Pat Robertson doesn't lean left, so he won't do something as nasty as that. And I don't want to say that to Orlando either. But I do think Orlando may not be taking Matthew 25:45 very seriously, and I hope they will have some more compassion and patience for the homeless.
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 6/24/2008 7:37:06 PM >
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RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial - 6/24/2008 8:54:53 PM
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rhippie
Posts: 568
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Rich The Hippie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
And no one EVER posts the before and after verses. NEVER, you know why it would discredit their arguement!
2 Thess 3:6 - 12 (ESV) 6Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. 7For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, 8nor did we eat anyone’s bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you. 9It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate. 10For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. 11For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies. 12Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living.£
Show me how the agruement that if one doesn't work he shouldn't eat fails!!!
Show me the argument that this applies to anyone OUTSIDE the church
_____________________________
Stand up for what's right....even if you're standing alone
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RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial - 6/24/2008 9:33:34 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2468
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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Do a word study on the original Greek/Hebrew origins of the word poor. It means that one is destitute. No one is making the statement that we are to not help those who are in this condition. But in our country too many have made being poor a lifestyle.
For some years I volunteered at a local food pantry. From my work there I have no sympathy for those who make povertry a lifestyle. I have had too many people turn down back beans and rice despite its nutrious value. I had people turn down organic wheat bread saying they wlll only eat Wonder bread. I had people demand to be given meat when we had none to give. We had few that were destitute but they were the exception rather than the rule.
Our poor life in royalty as compared to most of the third world. Yet, because of the government they believe they are entitled to have their needs met. Yet, they are not entitled to their next breath as it is a gift from God.
< Message edited by colliefan -- 6/24/2008 9:40:46 PM >
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial - 6/24/2008 10:13:36 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1644
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
Do a word study on the original Greek/Hebrew origins of the word poor. It means that one is destitute. No one is making the statement that we are to not help those who are in this condition. But in our country too many have made being poor a lifestyle.
For some years I volunteered at a local food pantry. From my work there I have no sympathy for those who make povertry a lifestyle. I have had too many people turn down back beans and rice despite its nutrious value. I had people turn down organic wheat bread saying they wlll only eat Wonder bread. I had people demand to be given meat when we had none to give. We had few that were destitute but they were the exception rather than the rule.
Our poor life in royalty as compared to most of the third world. Yet, because of the government they believe they are entitled to have their needs met. Yet, they are not entitled to their next breath as it is a gift from God.
My experience hanging out with various homeless people is that they generally don't feel entitled to anything. Most are grateful for whatever help they get.
I think if you are hungry and don't have any money to buy food, it's fair to call you "destitute."
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RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial - 6/24/2008 10:44:21 PM
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StephK
Posts: 1760
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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I see where Collie is coming from after working with my church's food bank. There are many getting food who are picky and demanding. They aren't going hungry. Many had multiple sources of food. Those who were truly in need were always very appreciative. Those who were truly in need usually asked if they could help with the ministry to give something back.
_____________________________
Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial - 6/24/2008 11:32:17 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1644
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe him,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?
- Isaiah 58
- then there's Jesus's description of the final judgement in Matthew 25, of course
Show me how the argument that if one is poor we should feed him/her fails!!!
If someone is demonstrably able to work and simply unwilling to, I agree we should push him or her to do something. But that verse in Thessalonians is speaking a lot more narrowly than you seem to think it is. In the meantime, I can always look up more.
Nothing you wrote here addresses the man who is able to work where work is available but will not. Your point fails.
Note that in the bolded part, someone who is a wanderer can certainly walk, get by on his own, and potentially work. More importantly, you haven't shown the red letter text comes with a little asterisk attached where Jesus says, "but don't help people who you think are too lazy to work." So it looks like there's still a small mountain of verses that you need to establish exemptions for before you continue.
Naturally, able-bodied people in the Church should work befor they eat, as Paul wrote, but nothing in our duties to non-believers involve us witholding food until they work.
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RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial - 6/24/2008 11:49:13 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
Naturally, able-bodied people in the Church should work befor they eat, as Paul wrote, but nothing in our duties to non-believers involve us witholding food until they work.
Actually this is an interesting point, i didnt make a distinction between those within the body of Christ and those without. Food for thought (pun intended)
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial - 6/25/2008 12:27:44 AM
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buckifn
Posts: 1646
Joined: 5/23/2006
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I volunteer with agencies that help feed the hungry and many of them are not homeless, but are working at min. wages and cannot make their money last all month long.
The rule about the parks is prob. a good one from a health/safety standpoint. I would much rather feed the hungry in a safe comfortable environment where they can sit and find rest while eating their meal.
I have taken food to the park when I go there to have my own lunch but that is usually only 3 or 4 extra sub sandwiches. That is not much for so many hungry people, but I always believe feeding a few is better than just looking the other way.
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RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial - 6/25/2008 8:05:24 AM
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bluestone
Posts: 2681
Joined: 2/25/2008
From: Saturn
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
Do a word study on the original Greek/Hebrew origins of the word poor. It means that one is destitute. No one is making the statement that we are to not help those who are in this condition. But in our country too many have made being poor a lifestyle.
For some years I volunteered at a local food pantry. From my work there I have no sympathy for those who make povertry a lifestyle. I have had too many people turn down back beans and rice despite its nutrious value. I had people turn down organic wheat bread saying they wlll only eat Wonder bread. I had people demand to be given meat when we had none to give. We had few that were destitute but they were the exception rather than the rule.
Our poor life in royalty as compared to most of the third world. Yet, because of the government they believe they are entitled to have their needs met. Yet, they are not entitled to their next breath as it is a gift from God.
I have had the opposite experience working in a church food pantry. Most were very, very grateful, and none were demanding or picky.
The fact is we are not in a third world country, and what is poor there is not what is poor here. Sort of like comparing what is hot weather in Nova Scotia to what is considered hot weather in Arizona.
Not helping the hungry is an option, but I could not do it in good conscious. And, as has been stated before, plenty of people do work, but not at a liveable wage.
The OP addresses the real issue here: large public feedings in parks and places used for recreation. Doing so encourages homeless to camp out there. The litter is a huge problem. People can't use the facilities as intended due to panhandling. The problem is not whether to offer food, but where to do so. I side with the City of Orlando.
_____________________________
"Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are DEAD"
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RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial - 6/25/2008 9:28:57 AM
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StephK
Posts: 1760
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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In my experience working with the poor the one's who are most vulnerable are the working poor. They often make too much to get any kind of assistance but not enough to make ends meet. Many of the homeless I've worked with who were mentally ill really needed at minimum a group home setting to ensure they stayed on their meds or long term hospitalization which unfortunately is taboo among many of the bleeding hearts. Then there were the homeless who made it a lifestyle and did the circuit going from shelter to shelter between Houston and New Orleans and all towns in between. They would stay the limited time in each shelter then move on instead of working. This was from several directors of the shelters I spoke with for a paper on the homeless I did for a housing course. Single women with children were the one's who often didn't have any shelter space available and for me as a case manager proved the hardest to help in emergency situations. Most of the shelters are geared for men not women.
I do remember one stat that was consistent in all of the journals on the homeless issue when I wrote my paper was that almost half of all the homeless were at time or another in the foster care system. The majority of the people on my adult caseload were mentally ill former foster kids between the ages of 18 and 21. There is a gap in services for that age group. They are very vulnerable during that time. They are legally adults but because of their dysfunctional childhoods they are not prepared for adulthood.
_____________________________
Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial - 7/23/2008 5:26:12 PM
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butterfly616
Posts: 74
Joined: 7/6/2008
From: California
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Homelessness is on the rise in the US due to foreclosures. It's a very sad situation, especially when children are involved. Also, many homeless people are mentally ill.
I personally know a person who has a mental illness and is currently homeless. He receives disability, but the monthly benefits aren't enough to pay rent, buy groceries, clothing, etc. He is very appreciative of organizations and individuals who are compassionate and offer food and clothing.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week618/cover.html
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/columnists/orl-owens1908jul19,0,2323844.column?track=rss
_____________________________
The Lord's faithful promises are your armor and protection. Psalm 91:4
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RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial - 7/23/2008 7:40:07 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3617
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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From reading this thread, there must be millions of homeless.
Everyone who has lost a job is not homeless.
Everyone who has lost an apartment is not homeless.
By some of your definitions, we all are homeless, or just half a step away from homelessness.
Pure scare tactics.
My church supports a food pantry. It is their policy not to make the food pantry a lifestyle. If you go there regularily, from what I hear, you will be spoken to. Its for emergency situations..not a lifestyle.
That..is what help is...to help you get through a tough time. NOT to support you so you don't have to work, learn skills or move to a place where there are jobs.
Please, the invalids etc. are not a part of this discussion, though this disclaimor always has to be made becuase that arguement.,..an extremely weak one...always comes up.
Our church also supports a homeless ministry. We collect specific foods and other items, that they can use. We don't need a park to help them.
Another aspect of this is...if you set up a feeding center in a park..how many people will come who are not homeless? Who cleans up after a few hundred people? Who pays for the utilities? Who keeps the peace?
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial - 7/25/2008 9:32:44 PM
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upNORTder
Posts: 220
Joined: 7/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
From reading this thread, there must be millions of homeless.
Everyone who has lost a job is not homeless.
Everyone who has lost an apartment is not homeless.
By some of your definitions, we all are homeless, or just half a step away from homelessness.
Pure scare tactics.
Homelessness
quote:
On any given night in America, anywhere from 700,000 to 2 million people are homeless, according to estimates of the National Law Center on Homelessness and Poverty.
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RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial - 7/25/2008 10:05:50 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2468
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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And how many are homeless because they don't want to follow the rules of the Salvation Army and other homeless shelters? If they don't want to follow rules, I have no sympathy for them.
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial - 7/26/2008 8:23:33 PM
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Witheringfire
Posts: 12
Joined: 2/16/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
The OP addresses the real issue here: large public feedings in parks and places used for recreation. Doing so encourages homeless to camp out there. The litter is a huge problem. People can't use the facilities as intended due to panhandling. The problem is not whether to offer food, but where to do so. I side with the City of Orlando.
+1 on that. It's not about doing the right thing; it's about doing the right thing the right way.
As to the side dicussion about the 'lazy/idle/sluggards/etc.'...someone being "in need" is altogether different than those who simply want others to meet their needs. I have little tolerance for bums.
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