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Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 6/26/2008 10:35:03 AM
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theo_book
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To all readers, please examine what you believe and explore the possibility of light always existing, and respond to the question, "Was there ever a time in which light did not exist?
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 6/26/2008 10:57:30 AM
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Bettawrekonize
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It seems like God created light before he created the stars, so I suppose He could have created light in an existing state between us and the stars. Of course, such is not a scientific explanation, for God creating the universe is not an event that science can explain. Ultimately, I think that whatever you choose to believe, with respect to origins, requires faith (including UCD and other naturalistic philosophies).
< Message edited by Bettawrekonize -- 6/26/2008 11:05:22 AM >
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 6/26/2008 11:24:40 AM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
It seems like God created light before he created the stars, so I suppose He could have created light in an existing state between us and the stars. Of course, such is not a scientific explanation, for God creating the universe is not an event that science can explain. Ultimately, I think that whatever you choose to believe, with respect to origins, requires faith (including UCD and other naturalistic philosophies).
I am not familiar with that aspect of it, but the question remains unanswered. Do you believe there was a time in which light was not existent?
Oh, and thanks for your participation.
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 6/26/2008 11:49:27 AM
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PromiseLander
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Genesis 1:3
Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
Before this, there was no light. Why should there have been?
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 6/26/2008 11:55:33 AM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
To all readers, please examine what you believe and explore the possibility of light always existing, and respond to the question, "Was there ever a time in which light did not exist?
No, since time and light were created simultaneously. Before there was light there was no time either. So there was no time in which light did not exist, since time is measured from the point at which God said "Let there be light" and there was light.
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 6/26/2008 11:58:38 AM
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JimboFletch
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Scripture states, "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." -1 John 1:5
So, as long as God existed, light existed.
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 6/26/2008 12:08:17 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Scripture states, "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." -1 John 1:5
So, as long as God existed, light existed.
Depends. The greek word for light here has both literal and figurative uses. It could be translated here as "illumination" with a moral/metaphysical sense. There is a corresponding passage in the Gospel of John (1:5, oddly enough) where the reference to God's light is clearly the antithesis to the darkness of evil which has not overcome it.
I'd strongly lean toward the figurative sense of the word "light" here.
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 6/26/2008 3:15:23 PM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
To all readers, please examine what you believe and explore the possibility of light always existing, and respond to the question, "Was there ever a time in which light did not exist?
No, since time and light were created simultaneously. Before there was light there was no time either. So there was no time in which light did not exist, since time is measured from the point at which God said "Let there be light" and there was light.
o.k. then give the scripture reference where it says God created time. I know where it says he said "let there be light, but time already existed because things happened prior to light being created.
In the beginning God created heaven and earth. Light did not come into being until later.
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 6/26/2008 3:21:09 PM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Genesis 1:3
Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
Before this, there was no light. Why should there have been?
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it...
Rev 22: 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 6/26/2008 6:37:56 PM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
To all readers, please examine what you believe and explore the possibility of light always existing, and respond to the question, "Was there ever a time in which light did not exist?
No, since time and light were created simultaneously. Before there was light there was no time either. So there was no time in which light did not exist, since time is measured from the point at which God said "Let there be light" and there was light.
o.k. then give the scripture reference where it says God created time. I know where it says he said "let there be light, but time already existed because things happened prior to light being created.
In the beginning God created heaven and earth. Light did not come into being until later.
"In the beginning"is not a different point in time from "Let there be light." After all, although it says in v.1 that "In the beginning" God made the heavens and the earth, it also says that the heavens (the firmament) was made on the second day and earth on the 3rd day. So the first step in creating the heavens and the earth was to create light and with the creation of light came also the first day--the beginning of time. Obviously there was no time before the first day.
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 6/26/2008 6:39:19 PM
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drmark
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quote:
No, since time and light were created simultaneously. Before there was light there was no time either. So there was no time in which light did not exist, since time is measured from the point at which God said "Let there be light" and there was light. WOW! Something that gluadys and I can totally agree on!
quote:
as long as God existed, light existed. Then what is your understanding of the creative act performed by God in Genesis 1:3? Or does God only exist in time? Do you think matter has existed as long as God has existed? What about space?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 6/27/2008 7:27:19 AM
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theo_book
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quote:
"In the beginning"is not a different point in time from "Let there be light." After all, although it says in v.1 that "In the beginning" God made the heavens and the earth, it also says that the heavens (the firmament) was made on the second day and earth on the 3rd day. So the first step in creating the heavens and the earth was to create light and with the creation of light came also the first day--the beginning of time. Obviously there was no time before the first day.
FIRST DAY ACTIVITY:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
On the first day, God created heaven {shaw-mah'-yim} and earth {eh'-rets} , after which he created light mixed with dark, and then separated the light from the dark.
SECOND DAY ACTIVITY
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament {raw-kee'-ah}, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God CALLED the firmament {raw-kee'-ah} Heaven {shaw-mah'-yim}. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
On the second day, God created "RAW-KEE-AH" and named it "SHAW-MAH-YIM." This shows that the "heaven" created on the second day is not the same heaven story retold. It is a different creation, "raw-kee-ah" that was GIVEN THE NAME of the created heaven of day one. It is not the same heaven.
THIRD DAY ACTIVITY
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
The fact that God separated dry land from water does not mean it was not already created. It simply means the creation of a thing is not necessarily the finished product, and refinement becomes a finishing process. "Eh'-rets" was created on the first day, and separated from the waters on the third day.
The Genesis account has heaven and earth created first, light created mixed with darkness follows, and light separated from darkness following that. So heaven and earth were created prior to light. Time did not begin with creation of light. Time is not light.
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 6/27/2008 7:48:22 AM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
In the beginning"is not a different point in time from "Let there be light." Obviously there was no time before the first day.
But Genesis does not say "In the beginning God said let there be light." Or do you not see a significance to sequentiality in time?
I think all will agree (ever the optimist) God COULD HAVE spoken all into existence in the first moment of creation. But he not only did not do it that way, he also uses the language to Moses to express the sequentiality of the event of creation. I do not pretend to know why he did it that way, but I do know it is the way he chose to express it.
I have a problem with saying light is time. Basically it is this. First; Did time begin (in this "time is light" philosophy) when light was created, or when it was separated from the dark? And second; did the separation change what the light was? And third; where is there any scriptural evidence for such conclusion?
And I have another problem with saying light is time. There was activity prior to God's saying "Let there be light." Activity requires time, but does not require light. It has been profferred on another thread, that "Time is a measure of change, a description of a sequence of events..." So if there are events sequencing, time must be in existence.
< Message edited by theo_book -- 6/27/2008 7:55:48 AM >
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 6/27/2008 9:07:30 AM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
On the second day, God created "RAW-KEE-AH" and named it "SHAW-MAH-YIM." This shows that the "heaven" created on the second day is not the same heaven story retold. It is a different creation, "raw-kee-ah" that was GIVEN THE NAME of the created heaven of day one. It is not the same heaven.
You are forgetting that to give something a name is to declare what it essentially is. To call the 'raqia' 'shamayim' is to declare that the 'raqia' is 'shamayim'. There is no other 'shamayim'. The 'shamayim' of v. 6 is the same 'shamayim' of v. 2. 'shamayim' is not a courtesy title for the 'raqia'. It is what the 'raqia' is.
v. 1-2 together with v 2:4a frame the story. The first is an introductory announcement of the theme and the second is a summary statement. The action begins in v. 3
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I have a problem with saying light is time.
I didn't say that. I said time is measured from the point at which light is created, not that they are the same thing. Light is energy/matter. Time is the measure of the movement of energy/matter through space (which was also created simultaneously with light and time).
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First; Did time begin (in this "time is light" philosophy) when light was created, or when it was separated from the dark? And second; did the separation change what the light was? And third; where is there any scriptural evidence for such conclusion?
When light is created. No. I think the scriptural text is ambiguous if one does not take into account the physical nature of light. But since the text implies the creation of physical (as opposed to spiritual) light, it is allowable to take the physical nature of light into account.
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Activity requires time, but does not require light. It has been profferred on another thread, that "Time is a measure of change, a description of a sequence of events..." So if there are events sequencing, time must be in existence.
I don't agree that there was any creative activity prior to the creation of light. Time measures movement in space. In the material world all change involves movement in space. Even thinking involves the physical activity of neurons in the brain.
The only activity I can see happening 'before' creation is the thinking and planning of God which does not depend on the physical activity and connections of neurons and hence does not require time.
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 6/27/2008 12:26:01 PM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
On the second day, God created "RAW-KEE-AH" and named it "SHAW-MAH-YIM." This shows that the "heaven" created on the second day is not the same heaven story retold. It is a different creation, "raw-kee-ah" that was GIVEN THE NAME of the created heaven of day one. It is not the same heaven.
You are forgetting that to give something a name is to declare what it essentially is. To call the 'raqia' 'shamayim' is to declare that the 'raqia' is 'shamayim'. There is no other 'shamayim'. The 'shamayim' of v. 6 is the same 'shamayim' of v. 2. 'shamayim' is not a courtesy title for the 'raqia'. It is what the 'raqia' is.
Not really. Many are the names "given" in scripture that serve as reminders of some message or other. It has nothing to do with "what something essentially is." "But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men." [Mat 16:23]
So is Mathew Satan? All God did by naming "'raqia' 'shamayim'" was to give us a point of reference. Paul the apostle said he was "caught up to the "third heaven" which is a simple oblique reference that there two others, which are identified for us in Genesis 1 as the heaven where the stars are located, and the heaven where the weather and atmosphere is located. Then there is the heaven where God abides. They are NOT one and the same.
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v. 1-2 together with v 2:4a frame the story. The first is an introductory announcement of the theme and the second is a summary statement. The action begins in v. 3
Not quite accurate. The action as accounted to us in Genesis begins with "created" while "in the beginning" tells us when. But that is limited to the beginning of creation, not the beginning of time.
The eighth proverb tells us of another set of actions that predated the Genesis account of the beginning of creation.
"The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men." [Prov 8:22-31]
There are various samples of verbs expressed, referencing action accomplished, which requires time for expression. And please, do not tell me Proverbs eight is only an allegory or poetry. There is no scriptural reason for it not to be an accurate account of what took place.
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[theo] I have a problem with saying light is time.
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[gluadys] I didn't say that.
And I didn't say you did. I said "I" have a problem with saying it.
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[gluadys] I said time is measured from the point at which light is created, not that they are the same thing. Light is energy/matter. Time is the measure of the movement of energy/matter through space (which was also created simultaneously with light and time).
Measured how? God did not create the implements of time-measurement
until the fourth day, when he created the sun, and moon for the express purpose of allowing man to measure time. There is no reference to a "point" in TIME at which light is created. There is only a reference to the fact it was created on the first day. We have no knowledge as to the length of day as there were no provisions or measuring the day at that point in time. The most we can do is conjecture events.
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[theo] First; Did time begin (in this "time is light" philosophy) when light was created, or when it was separated from the dark? And second; did the separation change what the light was? And third; where is there any scriptural evidence for such conclusion?
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[gluadys] When light is created. No. I think the scriptural text is ambiguous if one does not take into account the physical nature of light. But since the text implies the creation of physical (as opposed to spiritual) light, it is allowable to take the physical nature of light into account.
Well I don't think there is any honest effort to claim it is spiritual light referenced in Genesis 1. In fact, I agree with your assessment that an understanding of physical light is essential for an understanding of Genesis 1.
Where I do not agree however, is when you say time began with the creation of light. God always existed. "Exist" carries the connotation "to be" (a verb of existence) to mean one "is." It requires time for one to
"be." "To be" MEANS to exist, have being. "Being" requires time, because being is itself a measure of change. To continue to be implies getting older. If God does not get older, then Daniel was wrong to reference God as "ancient of days." And Daniel was inspired to so designate Him.
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[theo] Activity requires time, but does not require light. It has been profferred on another thread, that "Time is a measure of change, a description of a sequence of events..." So if there are events sequencing, time must be in existence.
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[gluadys] I don't agree that there was any creative activity prior to the creation of light.
I did not say "creative activity." Creative" is the kind of activity referenced in Gen 1, but there is other activity referenced in Prov 8. ALL activity requires time.
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[gluadys] Time measures movement in space. In the material world all change involves movement in space. Even thinking involves the physical activity of neurons in the brain.
The only activity I can see happening 'before' creation is the thinking and planning of God which does not depend on the physical activity and connections of neurons and hence does not require time.
That assumes physical activity is necessary for time to function. But that is not the only kind of change we can catalogue. just "being" requires time, time in which to simply "be." Time is defined byWebster as, "The period necessary to be occupied by something or someone. Time is also defined by Webster as; the system of those sequential relations that any event has to any other; indefinite and continuous duration regarded as that in which events succeed one another."
There is no indication in any meaning of time, that anything can "exist" outside of its parameters of meaning. And I am not speaking of references like "In no time" as though it actually exists.
< Message edited by theo_book -- 6/27/2008 12:33:23 PM >
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 6/27/2008 1:52:33 PM
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Method
Posts: 1096
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
To all readers, please examine what you believe and explore the possibility of light always existing, and respond to the question, "Was there ever a time in which light did not exist?
Are we talking about the visible spectrum or the entire EM spectrum?
I would suspect that there was a time between the production of the CMB and the formation of the first stars where there was not light produced in the visible spectrum. The CMB itself has been stretched to wavelengths well below the visible spectrum.
If we are talking about the entire EM spectrum the I would agree that light has been around since the beginning and ever since.
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 6/27/2008 1:58:04 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
It seems like God created light before he created the stars, so I suppose He could have created light in an existing state between us and the stars.
I would suspect that such light would be diffuse which is quite different than the pin point sources that stars produce. Also, this light between us and the stars would not have the spectrum like the spectrum that stars produce.
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 6/27/2008 2:16:54 PM
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everstudy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
If God does not get older, then Daniel was wrong to reference God as "ancient of days." And Daniel was inspired to so designate Him.
It would appear that you misunderstand the nature of God. He is ETERNAL and eternally transcendant. He is outside and beyond our dimensions, and yet able to interact with us.
God does not "get older"
~ Everstudy
_____________________________
One can be precise and not accurate. And one can be accurate without being precise. The key is to be both precise and accurate.
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 6/27/2008 3:07:19 PM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: everstudy
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
If God does not get older, then Daniel was wrong to reference God as "ancient of days." And Daniel was inspired to so designate Him.
It would appear that you misunderstand the nature of God. He is ETERNAL and eternally transcendant. He is outside and beyond our dimensions, and yet able to interact with us.
God does not "get older"
~ Everstudy
And I think YOU misunderstand the spirit of God who inspired Daniel to describe God as "The ancient of days." As for being outside and beyond our dimensions, how then could he dwell in the temple in Jerusalem, or in the ark of the covenant, or walk in the various camps of the children of Israel while in the wilderness wanderings?
If Daniel had just described Him as "ancient" I would accept the premise that Daniel meant ancient "to us."but that is not the reference. "Ancient of days" suggests something altogether different. It resonates with age.
And why is it necessary for everyone to insist that God is not old? Do you really think old age would bother God? Of course God is old. He is ancientl, and THAT represents a lot of years.
God transcends his creation, but He did not create time. And there is no scripture that says He did. As for God "being outside of time," it is nowhere suggested in scripture, only in the doctrines and traditions of men.
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 6/27/2008 3:09:39 PM
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PromiseLander
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Genesis 1:3
Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
Before this, there was no light. Why should there have been?
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it...
Rev 22: 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Awesome! But keep in mind too that the human writers of the Bible can only describe things in ways that are given to man to describe... In other words, they write according to their own paradigm. If we look at the imagery given in books like Revelation, or Ezekiel, or Daniel, we see the authors very obviously struggling so hard to describe the indescribable! The only way that humans can describe the things of God are with human means, and these are so inadequate that it nearly drives the writers mad to think of ways to do it justice! So when we read that "...the glory of God did lighten it..." how much more than "light" is the glory of God! This glory was so powerful that it even caused the face of Moses to shine like the Burning Ones (Seraphim) around God's throne - not that they emit light of their own, but reflect the very glory of God!
I suppose the question should be worded then "Was there ever a time when light as we know it did not exist?" To that question we can answer "yes." If we ask "Was there ever a time when the glory of God did not shine?" Then the answer is a resounding "NO!"
Very thought provoking question, friend...
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 6/27/2008 3:15:56 PM
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PromiseLander
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Could it be that in Genesis 1 where it says: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was formless, and void..." Could God be documenting that He started out creation by creating the elements through which He would make the rest of existence?? We know that God works through secondary causes - like when Adam was created from the dust of the ground - could the beginnings verses be referring to say the periodic table of stuff from which God created everything else? (that would explains the earth being formless and void, and the spirit of God hovering over the waters...)
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 6/27/2008 3:16:52 PM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
I suppose the question should be worded then "Was there ever a time when light as we know it did not exist?" To that question we can answer "yes." If we ask "Was there ever a time when the glory of God did not shine?" Then the answer is a resounding "NO!"
Very thought provoking question, friend...
Your on to me. :)
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