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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 4:35:03 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2657
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AiP -
Welcome to the thread. I have little to offer here, being a banker/structured finance geek, so I mostly observe your posts, but yours are extremely fun to read.
I'll go back to lurking now.
BT
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 4:40:10 PM
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atheistinpeace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
AiP -
...
so I mostly observe your posts, but yours are extremely fun to read.
I hope that's a compliment, rather than your opinion being that my attempts at arguing a position are fun to read because they're laughable! If the former, thanks. If not, no thanks!
AiP
_____________________________
'It is not what the man of science believes that distinguishes him, but how and why he believes it. His beliefs are tentative, not dogmatic; they are based on evidence, not on authority or intuition' - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 4:40:17 PM
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StephK
Posts: 1887
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From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
primordial earth had hydrogen, hydrogen-cyanide, methane, ammonia
Where did primordial earth come from?
_____________________________
Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 4:43:42 PM
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PrexicKehdaki
Posts: 190
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quote:
ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace
quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
quote:
ORIGINAL: mikejonesoftn
How do you or most atheist think life started?
No one knows for sure, but one theory goes like this..
dna = replication
...
There we have it. The first primitive cell.
Granted this is a new theory in its beginning stages.. but it's picking up a lot of speed, support, and evidence.
Cracking answer, beat me to it. Good thing too; my knowledge of the details is evidently a bit sketchier.
Prexic - hope you don't mind if I contribute the odd thought to this thread. I like to chip in on these forums here every now and then, and have done for a while now, and quite enjoy it. Nice to have exchanges of views between people with differences in opinion and belief, and they're almost always good natured. Frustratingly, the odd non-believer does pop up with a rather unlettered tirade against belief. So the more civil exchanges we all have, the better.
AiP
I'd be delighted to have some help. :]
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 4:45:45 PM
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PrexicKehdaki
Posts: 190
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrapeApe
quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
No one knows for sure, but one theory goes like this.
A theory is nothing more than a presumption, which, at best, is a guess.
I've heard one too many "theories" on the origin of existence. All of them fail to present itself as cold, hard fact without any second guessing or newer additions that modify old theories and basically rewrite the hypothesis altogether. I can't put my faith in something that constantly changes.
I did read this one book though. It made a lot of sense. Pretty good author, too. He knows how to tell the origins of life pretty well.
A theory is much more than a guess. A theory in science is an explanation of facts with evidence to support it.
And, I can't put my faith in something that changes so often too. But that's ok, because I realize I'm only human and everyone else is only human and that's a really big question to ask. I'm ok not knowing, and I find a lot of happiness researching and studying the unknown.
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 4:46:08 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2657
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
quote:
primordial earth had hydrogen, hydrogen-cyanide, methane, ammonia
Where did primordial earth come from?
I see a first-cause argument in the making....
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 4:47:30 PM
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atheistinpeace
Posts: 200
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
You're an atheist? Wow, I've never met a person who had infinate knowledge before... 
You see, because that's what you'd need in order to say that there is no God.
You would have to know the intimate details of exactly everything there is to know in the universe to be able to say that there is no evidence to prove the existence of God. I'm sure that you don't have infinate knowledge of everything, so the best you can do is to say that you are an agnostic. Atheists by definition do not exist.
At the risk of taking over Prexic's thread, which I don't really want to do:
PromiseLander, we've gone over this before! Atheism does not claim infinite knowledge. I've put something on the definition of the terms 'atheism' and 'agnosticism' a few posts above this one. An atheist - in short - is someone who doesn't think there's a god. They suspect there isn't one. Now two really important points:
1. No atheist should ever, ever claim to know that god doesn't exist. (The same can be applied to theism, but that's not important right now.) This is intellectual dishonesty, and is a travesty regardless of the position of the person who commits that particular crime.
2. The existence of God cannot be proven either way. Period. See above re. intellectual dishonesty.
Best,
AiP
_____________________________
'It is not what the man of science believes that distinguishes him, but how and why he believes it. His beliefs are tentative, not dogmatic; they are based on evidence, not on authority or intuition' - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 4:47:44 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2657
Joined: 11/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
AiP -
...
so I mostly observe your posts, but yours are extremely fun to read.
I hope that's a compliment, rather than your opinion being that my attempts at arguing a position are fun to read because they're laughable! If the former, thanks. If not, no thanks!
AiP
Absolutely sincere - intelligent, well reasoned, and well written. Always a fun read.
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 4:49:24 PM
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StephK
Posts: 1887
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
quote:
primordial earth had hydrogen, hydrogen-cyanide, methane, ammonia
Where did primordial earth come from?
I see a first-cause argument in the making....
The stuff to start everything has to come from somewhere.
_____________________________
Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 4:50:00 PM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 78
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From: Terre Haute, IN
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The truth is unknowable? How do we know that 6 + 4 = 10? Is that not truth? By the way, I'm not saying Jesus is a math problem. FAITH is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. FAITH and ALL the created universe are very "true" evidences for the existence of God.
_____________________________
"Saving faith shuts my mouth and excludes boasting, but it leads me to boast in Christ.... Saving faith is not dependant upon my obedience, but obedience is the hallmark of the man or woman filled with the Spirit." -- Sinclair Ferguson --
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 4:52:46 PM
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PrexicKehdaki
Posts: 190
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
the first primitive cell.... Have you ever considered irreduceable complexity? This "primitive" cell, how did it live while the very components it needs to live are evolving (by blind, unintelligent chance by the way). For example, every human needs a functioning brain, heart, and lungs (plus a whole bunch more) to live. How does the body function while these parts are "evolving"? One other question, how do scientists know the conditions of this earth billions of years ago to conduct these so-called experiments, when they won't even accept a lot of eye-witness accounts of history because it makes somewhat of a joke out of you theory? Plus, producing some useless amino acids in a dish is nothing compared to creating the universe out of nothing with a spoken word. And they're not even using their own material, but material created by God. They're using HIS material to disprove Him with. By the way, UNI = single, VERSE = spoken sentence; UNIVERSE = single spoken sentence. Well, isn't that amazing? You were created as a result of God's spoken voice, and the amazing part of it is, God loves you so much, even though he knew you would reject Him, He still created you, and before He put you together in your mother's womb, He became a man so that HIS blood could pay for YOUR sin and MY sin. THAT is LOVE. THAT is amazing grace.
Good question.
All cells need a way to grow and reproduce, and the cells I described can.
Growing-
Water will flow across a membrane to try to equalize the ion concentration. If there is a lot of polymer in a vesicle it will be surrounded by many ions, thus causing water to flow into the vesicle, increasing the internal pressure and stretching the membrane. Fatty acids are in equilibrium between the vesicle and solution. If 2 vesicles are near one another they will gradually swap fatty acids. If one membrane is under tension, the fatty acid "on rate" will be greater than the "off rate" (move to a lower energy state by relaxing the pressure). It will suck up fatty acids from solution. The other vesicle will still give them off, but they will disappear (sucked up by neighbor) and not return. Therefore, the vesicle with high internal pressure will grow and the neighbor will shrink. (stolen from a fellow atheist friend, cdk007)
Reproduction-
It occurs in much the same way a bubble divides by natural physics, and a force acting upon it.
Again, science only has theories. Science doesn't pretend to know that which it has little evidence for. We know through experimentation how life COULD have started.. it's just a matter of finding out what DID happen.
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 4:56:02 PM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 78
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From: Terre Haute, IN
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I thought evidence and facts were one and the same. A theory is one particular explanation of the facts (fact doesn't equal theory, and theory doesn't equal fact).
_____________________________
"Saving faith shuts my mouth and excludes boasting, but it leads me to boast in Christ.... Saving faith is not dependant upon my obedience, but obedience is the hallmark of the man or woman filled with the Spirit." -- Sinclair Ferguson --
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 4:56:29 PM
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PrexicKehdaki
Posts: 190
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
You're an atheist? Wow, I've never met a person who had infinate knowledge before...
You see, because that's what you'd need in order to say that there is no God.
You would have to know the intimate details of exactly everything there is to know in the universe to be able to say that there is no evidence to prove the existence of God. I'm sure that you don't have infinate knowledge of everything, so the best you can do is to say that you are an agnostic. Atheists by definition do not exist.
Now, to your "beginning" explaination: go back in your mind to the very first thing... An atom of anything, or whatever the very first "thing" was that existed to which just a nanosecond before there was nothing... How did that come into being? Since time exists, and all things wind down, or die, or burn up, or expire, ect... then it's safe to assume that on a much larger scale there MUST have been a beginning to everything. So what caused it? (Remember, start with absolutely nothing - that's a "zero" with the edges rubbed out)
I don't say there is no God. I simply lack a belief in one due to insufficient evidence.
You don't have to know everything in the universe to lack a belief in something.
From what I do know, however, I believe the Christian god is highly unlikely. But it's specifically because I don't know everything that I'm not willing to say he for sure doesn't exist.
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 5:02:46 PM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 78
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From: Terre Haute, IN
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Post #37 didn't answer my question at all. Nice try with all the scientific vocabulary, though.
_____________________________
"Saving faith shuts my mouth and excludes boasting, but it leads me to boast in Christ.... Saving faith is not dependant upon my obedience, but obedience is the hallmark of the man or woman filled with the Spirit." -- Sinclair Ferguson --
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 5:04:17 PM
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PrexicKehdaki
Posts: 190
Joined: 6/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
quote:
primordial earth had hydrogen, hydrogen-cyanide, methane, ammonia
Where did primordial earth come from?
Over 4.6 billion years ago our solar system was born from the gases of a nebula.
Gravity caused the dust from the nebula to swirl together.. creating bigger pieces of debris.
At the center was a dense nucleus, or protosun.
The extreme heat that was generated in the center began to burn the abundant hydrogen atoms in its core, becoming a self-sustaining nuclear-fusion reaction that grew to be our sun.
The clumps of rock continued to form and grow thanks to gravity. These became planets..
This exact process has been observed in the extrasolar universe.
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 5:05:46 PM
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StephK
Posts: 1887
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
quote:
primordial earth had hydrogen, hydrogen-cyanide, methane, ammonia
Where did primordial earth come from?
Over 4.6 billion years ago our solar system was born from the gases of a nebula.
Gravity caused the dust from the nebula to swirl together.. creating bigger pieces of debris.
At the center was a dense nucleus, or protosun.
The extreme heat that was generated in the center began to burn the abundant hydrogen atoms in its core, becoming a self-sustaining nuclear-fusion reaction that grew to be our sun.
The clumps of rock continued to form and grow thanks to gravity. These became planets..
This exact process has been observed in the extrasolar universe.
So where did the nebula originate?
_____________________________
Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 5:08:30 PM
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PrexicKehdaki
Posts: 190
Joined: 6/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
Post #37 didn't answer my question at all. Nice try with all the scientific vocabulary, though.
Feel free to better explain your question. I may have jumped to conclusions.. I'm trying to keep up with all the questions!
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 5:10:51 PM
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PrexicKehdaki
Posts: 190
Joined: 6/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
quote:
primordial earth had hydrogen, hydrogen-cyanide, methane, ammonia
Where did primordial earth come from?
Over 4.6 billion years ago our solar system was born from the gases of a nebula.
Gravity caused the dust from the nebula to swirl together.. creating bigger pieces of debris.
At the center was a dense nucleus, or protosun.
The extreme heat that was generated in the center began to burn the abundant hydrogen atoms in its core, becoming a self-sustaining nuclear-fusion reaction that grew to be our sun.
The clumps of rock continued to form and grow thanks to gravity. These became planets..
This exact process has been observed in the extrasolar universe.
So where did the nebula originate?
Nebulae, and everything else, originally came from the Big Bang.. as I'm sure that's where you're getting at.
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 5:13:13 PM
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atheistinpeace
Posts: 200
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
the first primitive cell.... Have you ever considered irreduceable complexity? This "primitive" cell, how did it live while the very components it needs to live are evolving (by blind, unintelligent chance by the way). For example, every human needs a functioning brain, heart, and lungs (plus a whole bunch more) to live. How does the body function while these parts are "evolving"? One other question, how do scientists know the conditions of this earth billions of years ago to conduct these so-called experiments, when they won't even accept a lot of eye-witness accounts of history because it makes somewhat of a joke out of you theory? Plus, producing some useless amino acids in a dish is nothing compared to creating the universe out of nothing with a spoken word. And they're not even using their own material, but material created by God. They're using HIS material to disprove Him with. By the way, UNI = single, VERSE = spoken sentence; UNIVERSE = single spoken sentence. Well, isn't that amazing? You were created as a result of God's spoken voice, and the amazing part of it is, God loves you so much, even though he knew you would reject Him, He still created you, and before He put you together in your mother's womb, He became a man so that HIS blood could pay for YOUR sin and MY sin. THAT is LOVE. THAT is amazing grace.
I'll respond selectively:
I'll simply encourage you to research irreducable complexity. It's been shown to be a massively shaky argument. Kenneth Miller, a practising Christian, was (to the best of my knowledge) one of the key figures who disspelled this idea when the Dover court case over ID was going on. (Not that the court case concerned IC; I think it all went on at the same time, and Michale Behe, who argues strongly for IC, was a witness in the case.)
The organs you mention do not evolve while the body is functioning. What happens is that, between generations, there will be random genetic mutations (so nothing changes while the person is living). These mutations will affect how the person with those genes functions. If those mutations confer an advantage, then nature will select in favour of those with those mutations (i.e. the original + descendants - as I understand it) - that is, those with the favourable mutations have a better chance of surviving, and will therefore pass on their genes. Conversely, a mutation that leads to a disadvantage will die out. Whole books have been written on what I've tried to condense into one paragraph, so I'll stop there!
Better than the fact that scientist can re-create conditions on earth several billion years ago is the fact that scientists can recreate the conditions of the universe when it was something like 0.0000000000000000000000000000001 seconds old. Now that is clever...
AiP
_____________________________
'It is not what the man of science believes that distinguishes him, but how and why he believes it. His beliefs are tentative, not dogmatic; they are based on evidence, not on authority or intuition' - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 5:13:18 PM
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PrexicKehdaki
Posts: 190
Joined: 6/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
The truth is unknowable? How do we know that 6 + 4 = 10? Is that not truth? By the way, I'm not saying Jesus is a math problem. FAITH is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. FAITH and ALL the created universe are very "true" evidences for the existence of God.
There are numerous questions that we don't know the answer to. Even theists.
Faith is not evidence for the existence of God.. care to explain?
And simply evidence does not make a truth known for certain. We have evidence of how life started but we don't know for sure yet.
< Message edited by PrexicKehdaki -- 6/26/2008 5:20:25 PM >
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 5:19:02 PM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 78
Joined: 4/29/2008
From: Terre Haute, IN
Status: offline
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Without total knowledge of EVERYTHING, I cannot say that gold doesn't exist. But I CAN say gold DOES exist without knowledge of everything, simply because I have a gold chain around my neck. It would be stupid to say that gold doesn't exist. Or oil, for that matter. All the fighting over possessing it is ample evidence of its existence. It would be rediculous for me to say that the painter of the painting on my wall never existed. When I look at the beautiful trees in my yard, or a young married couple holding hands, or feel the gentle breeze touch my skin, how can I possibly say this "single spoken sentence" had no speaker, that the universe has no Creator?
_____________________________
"Saving faith shuts my mouth and excludes boasting, but it leads me to boast in Christ.... Saving faith is not dependant upon my obedience, but obedience is the hallmark of the man or woman filled with the Spirit." -- Sinclair Ferguson --
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 5:21:50 PM
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atheistinpeace
Posts: 200
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
Without total knowledge of EVERYTHING, I cannot say that gold doesn't exist. But I CAN say gold DOES exist without knowledge of everything, simply because I have a gold chain around my neck. It would be stupid to say that gold doesn't exist. Or oil, for that matter. All the fighting over possessing it is ample evidence of its existence. It would be rediculous for me to say that the painter of the painting on my wall never existed. When I look at the beautiful trees in my yard, or a young married couple holding hands, or feel the gentle breeze touch my skin, how can I possibly say this "single spoken sentence" had no speaker, that the universe has no Creator?
I presume this is a reference to the 'I see a painting; therefore there must a painter' argument...
Response being that a painting does not contain self-replicating chemicals; the trees in your yard do.
AiP
_____________________________
'It is not what the man of science believes that distinguishes him, but how and why he believes it. His beliefs are tentative, not dogmatic; they are based on evidence, not on authority or intuition' - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 5:22:46 PM
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Gazingstock
Posts: 77
Joined: 5/30/2007
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Oh, I have two questions:
1) Do you believe it is possible that myself, or anyone else, does have sufficient evidence that God exists?
2) What evidence would be sufficient for you personally to believe in God?
< Message edited by Gazingstock -- 6/26/2008 5:29:33 PM >
_____________________________
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual [ones]. -1Cr 2:13
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 5:23:44 PM
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PrexicKehdaki
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