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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 7/7/2008 9:23:36 PM
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PrexicKehdaki
Posts: 190
Joined: 6/26/2008
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Psalms274, I'm not going to reply to your post on abiogenesis. I was only willing to reply to it once, and it was off-topic from the get-go. Not to mention, the last thing I feel like doing right now is cracking open my books ;-) I'm not going to college for biology, so I have to literally research and read up on those topics when I debate them seriously online.. and you put a lot on the table, so.. no thanks :P I need to clarify one thing though. The one reason I don't like when people boast their credentials online is because there are people with the same credentials or more that likely disagree. So it's not like you can be given any slack for simply having formal education. Which is largely the case in the abiogenesis debate among scientists today.
Ok, however, you did reply to the OP so I'm obligated to address that. And I will.. in the next post.
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 7/7/2008 10:00:08 PM
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PrexicKehdaki
Posts: 190
Joined: 6/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Psalms274
quote:
" Where in the Bible does it say that someone that would otherwise go to Hell wouldn't if they were stupid? I'm not talking about mentally disabled. Just stupid.
Or are you saying stupid people always find belief in God? "
First question ... nope, does not say anything about how smart you need to be to get to heaven or hell ... second question ... nope ... stupid and smart people alike can find ways to believe in God, and can find ways not to believe.
See, this is where the problem comes in.
I asked earlier, "Is it possible to have an open heart (not stubborn) but due to stupidity, be unconvinced by the Bible?"
You specifically told me, "Again ... the answer has nothing to do with stupidity or intelligence."
Yet you now acknowledge that stupidity CAN lead you to Hell and God makes no exceptions for stupid people.
You really need to address this. Is it possible to have an open heart (not stubborn) but due to stupidity, be unconvinced by the Bible?
I can accept if you're answer is "yes, you can go to Hell for being stupid," but I want to make sure I really know what you're stance is. (or what Christianity's stance is.. which you kind of already answered) Do you feel it is just to send someone to Hell due to their stupidity?
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ORIGINAL: Psalms274
quote:
People who are actually trying to deny the Bible, while it is still convincing to them -- could they being doing so due to the events in their life?
Yes ... and fact it probably is the reason in most cases. (For events that may be caused by people ... ) There are so many people out there that call themselves Christians, yet do not act like they know Christ at all. They can be mean, hypocritically ... some are down right goofy! And those who walk with Jesus mess up all the time, which can cause someone who is watching to say, "If that's a Christian, you can count me out." A friend of mine made this statement, "If you see me doing the wrong thing, acting selfishly, hurting another with my words or actions, feeling sorry for myself, your looking at the real me. But if you see me doing the right thing, loving for the sake of loving, joyfully sacrificing for the sake of another .... well you're seeing Jesus in me."
Some of us have been through the ringer (in terms of events that have nothing to do with people) and cannot fathom how a loving God would allow these kind of things to happen. I have lost two brothers and my dad and that is just the tip of the iceberg ... talk about not comprehending what was going on.
But the thing is, we cannot look to another person for the solution. There is not a person on this earth that will not disappoint you ... including Billy Graham and Mother Teresa when she walked this earth. We will all let you down ... but there is One Who is it there for you in the midst of any event, any struggle that you may encounter, and is incapable of letting you down. As you get to know Him, know His character, understand His heart ... you can begin to see that nothing comes to you that is not first sifted through His loving hands, hands that filter with a perfect wisdom and an absolute sovereignty.
But ... we always will have a clear choice. And it will be one that we understand.
You acknowledge the confusion people endure.. from horrific events to bad Christians tainting their religion's reputation.. but you also assert that we always have a clear choice. I don't see it that way. Like you, I've had some pretty horrific things happen in my life.. and at the time things weren't clear for me. I can only imagine how it must be like for others who may have less ability to cope or having had to endure even more traumatic or confusing events. How can you say their choice is always clear?
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ORIGINAL: Psalms274
quote:
Perhaps they were abused by Christianity (or Christians, rather) or they hate the idea that their hypothetical atheist loved one who passed away is now suffering in Hell.
My brother was 14 when he died in a car wreck and had no relationship with Christ, I have had 4 very close friends die who had no relationship with Christ, my dad and another brother died a couple of years ago and I do not know for sure if they knew Christ. The idea that some of them lived through a living hell here on earth and may very well be in a much worse place breaks my heart ... it is a very tough struggle indeed ... but ... I know that God is good and He is merciful.
:-/ You know the question I'm probably thinking of right now. But I'm not going to ask it 'cause it's innately blunt.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Psalms274
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What reasons do you feel are acceptable for sending someone to Hell forever and what reasons do you feel aren't, if any?
The only reason that is acceptable for someone to go to hell is for them to to say to God: "No, I do not want to be saved by You."
Do people go to Hell for any other reason? I've never actually said that to anyone.. or to myself, or in my mind, or even thought it. But I know biblically I'm just in denial right now.. and I'm telling God that secretly by not being aware of him. I mean.. maybe theistic Satanists might say that.. but are you implying that everyone that does not believe in God is saying that to him?
Let's compare two different disbeliefs. One in the president and one in God. Not believing in the president even though we have footage of him and audio and millions of people alive today that have seen him, thousands that have touched him literally. The evidence that there is good evidence for the existence of the president is that just about no one has doubts that he exists.
If I were to not believe in the president.. would that make me a bad person worthy of Hell? Apparently not, as no where in the Bible do non-believers in the president go to Hell.
If I were to not believe in God.. would that make me a bad person worthy of Hell? Yes, on both parts according to the Bible.
Why is this?
Undoubtedly, Christians will tell me that disbelief in God is much worse because I'm not believing in something that created me and loves me infinitely and is of the up most glory. But who is this taking into consideration? God. It doesn't take me into consideration even though it's MY eternal fate at stake. Because God is of infinite value.. the act of not believing in him is worthy of Hell. What is this taking into consideration? The act itself or the party offended?
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ORIGINAL: Psalms274
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My question is what allows for our futures to be known rather then not yet determined.
Well, they are known by God because in His book it has already happened. They are to be determined by us because we don't have that foreknowledge ... this is really deep philosophical territory that will not determine whether you go to heaven or hell. I have yet to discover a person that has been able to give a definitive answer to this one. It's the same question about how freewill and sovereignty go hand in hand.
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meaning that what God would be looking at is more of an infinite tree of possible choices we could all make
That's a possible theory to the problem ... He sees all the choices and has a plan for any of them you may make (mostly His plans are to get us out of the mess we made by making the choice! I know He is never surprised by my circumstances and has already cooked up a solution for it ... ) An infinite God would be more than capable of pulling that off. Is it how it works? Maybe???
You have a blessed day!!!
I wouldn't be surprised if religion once again tried to mend itself with new science. ;-)
And may you have a wonderful day :P
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 7/7/2008 10:04:42 PM
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PrexicKehdaki
Posts: 190
Joined: 6/26/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BibleL7
well I just gonna say it was unfair of you to put a cute redhead in your avatar its just playing dirty pool unless its a pic of you. But I digress cept to say it was reason I bothered to come back to thread and read the other posts. In response to your asking if being stupid or any of the other items you asked qualify you to go to hell the answer is that the question is invalid. See everyone is on way to hell just a fact you dont need to do or be anything different to qualify to go to hell. Now you do have to accept the free gift of salvation from God provided by Jesus to escape going to hell. Of course to do that you must be chosen by God who knows all things to be able to accept the free gift for unless the Father draws you, you will not believe. So is all God's and Jesus doing to determin if you are saved from hell nothing we do or dont do.
As to the youtube thing on atheists not existing I dont thin I would want to listen to a guy who would say that blond was most beautiful woman when the redhead in your avatar is 10 times better looking I not sure i would trust what he had to say so did not watch it would take hours on my slow puter anyway.
As to the Nature of God and His morals He is God so He can very well define any morals and with as many details He wishes as He created all things He makes the rules. We do not need to accept the rules He will allow us to break them yet there is consequence if we do break them. Once again He is God we are not so we can not judge His rules to be fair or not, we need only obey or disobey, understanding that obeying has blessings to it and disobeying has consequences. These blessings or consequences may or may not take place here on earth in our lifetime. See God is first Judge for that is the meaning of the word used in the Bible. Now God being loving and merciful He allowed us a way to spend eternity with Him instead of going to hell. See that is where the loving part comes in is that He is willing to extend mercy to those who absolutely could never deserve it.
lol, so i herd you liek mudkipz? (If you don't get it.. don't worry about it)
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 7/7/2008 10:04:55 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 756
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
Lets try this another way then. Joe Schmoe on the other side of the planet is a real living person. He leaves evidence to say it is so. You find the evidence, but have never seen Joe, so you don't believe he exists. But he is real, and the evidence proves it, but you never met him, so you deny his existence. You then try to make that evidence fit what you do know, because the evidence is there and it is undeniable. Make sense. No probably not. I was never one good at debating. I am too emotionally driven.
quote:
It'd be more like, evidence exists for and against Joe Schmoe and I find the evidence against and the rebuttals of the evidence for.. more convincing. Ah, touche, or is it tuche, no, how do you spell this word, tooche, I do know this, but I am drawing a blank right now. Stupid spellcheck  won't tell me the right spelling, what good is it. 
quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
You aren't. My bad. But actively trying to denounce ones faith can be soon two ways. But I didn't mean it the way you think. It is your pride(that is atheists in general, not just you) that tells you, that you know more than God and more than a few billion other people.
quote:
By definition I'm no where near as smart as God. The problem is, I don't think he exists in the first place.. so how does my pride have anything to do with God's intelligence? Also, I don't think I know more than a few billion other people. You're tagging on appeals to authority and appeals to populous with your appeal to emotions by using that. I'm not proud that I think differently than most people. YOU think differently than most people. MOST people aren't Christians. Is it your pride that is telling you you know more than a few billion other people and their gods? I don't think it is, so please don't think my pride influences my beliefs. Really, I have no pride. In fact, I have very little self esteem. lol
I don't mean to offend you. 
quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
Well I did say, for me a threat of hell shows me a need for a savior. It is not circular, more like an arrow that points me to Him. Did it address your argument, maybe not, but that statement was on regards to a statement you made about fearing hell not being a good reason to believe.
quote:
If the problem was trying to convince me of God with the threat of Hell, then I've explained why that doesn't logically work. So then claiming it points to my need for a savior.. kinda skips the "I need to be convinced of Hell first" part.
Without trying to be repetitive, hell shows me the reason for a savior. For you who don't believe in either or, one can't force the need to be seen for the other without the other. For me it does, for you, not so much. 
quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
Well I never claimed to know anything about you. I only know what I read, and that verse is in regards to all people, not just you. No one will be without excuse come the day of judgment. I did offer for you to tell me your story so I can no better where you are coming from.
quote:
I don't remember. Story of what? My disbelief?
Whatever stories you would like to share. It is possible for you to come here for something other than arguing you know.  Like getting to know people, or coming back to your faith.  No you say, I had to try. You sure. The door is always open.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
I don't see it that way. There is no meaning to an atheists life, and have heard many say, "you live and you die, that is it". That my friend is meaningless.
quote:
You're exaggerating the practicalities of that common phrase. Christians say it too. Not because they consciously believe life is meaningless, but because it expresses a state of desperation and pointlessness.
Yes Christians do say, you live and you die, but I would wager , that you wouldn't hear it followed up with, thats it. We all live, we all die, but for us, we know that is not it. As for atheists, I don't exaggerate when I am just repeating what I have heard many of them say. And it always ends with, thats it.
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For me, I find meaning in creating and learning. I read non-stop, I debate non-stop, I think non-stop. That gives me meaning. I find meaning in love, the unknown, and friendship. I find meaning in experiencing life. I find meaning in the fact that the atoms that make up my body have coalesced for such a brief time and will soon disorganize into my death. Huh, hear you go with that science mumbo jumbo again.  , jj. I understand that you can find meaning in many places. The only difference in all that other stuff, is that it is fleeting. It is here today, gone in a NY minute. Love, friends, arguments, stuff, possessions, even the mind will all be gone one day. To me, that is meaningless, to you, maybe not. I do look for those things to, but I understand the fickleness of life, and nothing but the Lord can fulfill me now.
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I never really had much meaning as a Christian. Things felt so boring and the very idea of someone ELSE having a "plan" for me was depressing. Sometimes it is boring. There is a post on here that says just that. It does get tough sometimes, and it is hard. But He is the meaning for all of this.
Why would Gods having a plan for your life depress you?
quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
Jesus does appeal to the emotions. Emotions are part of what makes us tick. He appeals to all parts of us. Mind, body and soul.
And just because we think something is,or is not, does not make it so. One way or the other, we always come back to Him. We can try to deny it any way we can, and justify that denial any way we see fit, but just because you think there is no God, or that there will be no judgment, or that there is no hell, does not make it so. Or vice versa for me. But I know what I feel, and what I have been through and the truth of the bible makes perfect sense to me. I know He is there, and if I know this, than the rest must be true.
quote:
My emotions appeal to a godless universe.. but I rarely ever mention that in a debate because it's meaningless to others. My emotions are my own. They're flimsy and too dependent on things not necessarily anchored in reality.
Emotions are flimsy. But mine are dependent on someone most definitely anchored in reality. Without Him, there is no reality.
I hope you got some laughs out of this post. So you know, I do not enjoy arguing.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 7/7/2008 10:49:41 PM
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PrexicKehdaki
Posts: 190
Joined: 6/26/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
Lets try this another way then. Joe Schmoe on the other side of the planet is a real living person. He leaves evidence to say it is so. You find the evidence, but have never seen Joe, so you don't believe he exists. But he is real, and the evidence proves it, but you never met him, so you deny his existence. You then try to make that evidence fit what you do know, because the evidence is there and it is undeniable. Make sense. No probably not. I was never one good at debating. I am too emotionally driven.
quote:
It'd be more like, evidence exists for and against Joe Schmoe and I find the evidence against and the rebuttals of the evidence for.. more convincing. Ah, touche, or is it tuche, no, how do you spell this word, tooche, I do know this, but I am drawing a blank right now. Stupid spellcheck won't tell me the right spelling, what good is it.
^-^ It's touche. And if you wanna get real fancy, add the aigu accent mark over the e. :P
quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
You aren't. My bad. But actively trying to denounce ones faith can be soon two ways. But I didn't mean it the way you think. It is your pride(that is atheists in general, not just you) that tells you, that you know more than God and more than a few billion other people.
quote:
By definition I'm no where near as smart as God. The problem is, I don't think he exists in the first place.. so how does my pride have anything to do with God's intelligence? Also, I don't think I know more than a few billion other people. You're tagging on appeals to authority and appeals to populous with your appeal to emotions by using that. I'm not proud that I think differently than most people. YOU think differently than most people. MOST people aren't Christians. Is it your pride that is telling you you know more than a few billion other people and their gods? I don't think it is, so please don't think my pride influences my beliefs. Really, I have no pride. In fact, I have very little self esteem. lol
I don't mean to offend you.
lol, you didn't. Don't worry.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
Well I did say, for me a threat of hell shows me a need for a savior. It is not circular, more like an arrow that points me to Him. Did it address your argument, maybe not, but that statement was on regards to a statement you made about fearing hell not being a good reason to believe.
quote:
If the problem was trying to convince me of God with the threat of Hell, then I've explained why that doesn't logically work. So then claiming it points to my need for a savior.. kinda skips the "I need to be convinced of Hell first" part.
Without trying to be repetitive, hell shows me the reason for a savior. For you who don't believe in either or, one can't force the need to be seen for the other without the other. For me it does, for you, not so much.
Is Hell the reason you believe in Jesus and God in the first place? If not, then I lack that part and you have an advantage at being convinced by Hell :P
If so, then if I can think of a scarier consequence than Hell, would you believe whatever I want you to believe? ^-^
quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
Well I never claimed to know anything about you. I only know what I read, and that verse is in regards to all people, not just you. No one will be without excuse come the day of judgment. I did offer for you to tell me your story so I can no better where you are coming from.
quote:
I don't remember. Story of what? My disbelief?
Whatever stories you would like to share. It is possible for you to come here for something other than arguing you know. Like getting to know people, or coming back to your faith. No you say, I had to try. You sure. The door is always open.
Alright, I'll say a little about my disbelief. I usually end up regretting this.. 'cause people always take my personal details and run with it and try to psychoanalyze me and why I don't believe. But whatever..
I'll try to be brief. When I was 12, I started to become depressed. By 14, I was so depressed I tried to kill myself and I developed some self-injury habits. During this period, (I'm heavily medicated now by the way, lol, don't worry..), I started questioning life in general. I considered everything about my life and took nothing for granted. I mean.. honestly? You do a lot of thinking when you want to die.. religion just happened to find itself in the path of my inner struggling. I started researching religions, reading about them.. reading the Bible.. reading the Qu'ran. None of it made sense to me. The next part is going to take some maturity on everyone's part to not judge me as I'm just being honest. Ok, I think what really kicked me over the fence though.. was my encounter with a shock site. I read about "shock sites" in a reader's digest and I couldn't maintain my curiosity. I went to one, and watched a few videos that made me absolutely sick to my being. Not at the gruesomeness of it, but at the injustice of it. That this world was REALLY that bad at some times in some places. I wanted to cry and scream at the same time. I wanted to hurt the people that did these things to others. But there was a severe problem. The disease, the gore, the pain, the suffering, the emotional agony, the world.. a good bit of it had no guilty party. Who pays, who's to blame, for someone being crushed in an elevator? No one. Yet the Muslims, the Christians, the theists.. They had someone. At this point, the part of me that still believed in God wanted to curse God. I felt my existence couldn't be justified if I had no quarrel with a being that could help reduce the tears, but wouldn't, just to test our faith. I found it so petty of God. That he would go to such great lengths to let us suffer just to see who would make it out worshiping him. That many of those that felt the most extreme pains in their deaths, leaving scars for their families, would ultimately see no help from God.. but go to a place God himself allows.. a place for more suffering. I became the typical angry atheist.
Over the course of years later. I grew calmer and refined my disbeliefs. I'm now personally in a state trying to understand religious faith.. which is a small reason I'm going to college to study psychology (mostly though because I want to help people who have dealt with severe clinical depression and self-injury and any other emotional distress).
Ok, please don't take that and run. HOW I became an atheist is irrelevant to my atheism now.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
I don't see it that way. There is no meaning to an atheists life, and have heard many say, "you live and you die, that is it". That my friend is meaningless.
quote:
You're exaggerating the practicalities of that common phrase. Christians say it too. Not because they consciously believe life is meaningless, but because it expresses a state of desperation and pointlessness.
Yes Christians do say, you live and you die, but I would wager , that you wouldn't hear it followed up with, thats it. We all live, we all die, but for us, we know that is not it. As for atheists, I don't exaggerate when I am just repeating what I have heard many of them say. And it always ends with, thats it.
You'd be surprised. I've discussed this on more atheist friendly boards.. how Christians at time seem oblivious of their belief in Heaven. They say things that sound like an atheist speaking.. yet simultaneously denying the possibility that there is no life after death.
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ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
quote:
For me, I find meaning in creating and learning. I read non-stop, I debate non-stop, I think non-stop. That gives me meaning. I find meaning in love, the unknown, and friendship. I find meaning in experiencing life. I find meaning in the fact that the atoms that make up my body have coalesced for such a brief time and will soon disorganize into my death.
Huh, hear you go with that science mumbo jumbo again. , jj. I understand that you can find meaning in many places. The only difference in all that other stuff, is that it is fleeting. It is here today, gone in a NY minute. Love, friends, arguments, stuff, possessions, even the mind will all be gone one day. To me, that is meaningless, to you, maybe not. I do look for those things to, but I understand the fickleness of life, and nothing but the Lord can fulfill me now.
Well, the point is moot considering I feel your meaning in God will also be gone one day. >.> lol
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ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
Why would Gods having a plan for your life depress you?
'Cause then I feel like I'm living his idea of my life and not mine. lol, it's just a weird feeling.
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ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
I hope you got some laughs out of this post. So you know, I do not enjoy arguing.
hehe, I'm sure you all get laughs out of mine too. :P
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 7/7/2008 11:48:48 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 756
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
Status: offline
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quote:
Ah, touche, or is it tuche, no, how do you spell this word, tooche, I do know this, but I am drawing a blank right now. Stupid spellcheck won't tell me the right spelling, what good is it.
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^-^ It's touche. And if you wanna get real fancy, add the aigu accent mark over the e. :P
I was going to do that, but I have no idea how to do it on the keyboard,  , so much for high iqs and simple tools.
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I don't mean to offend you.
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lol, you didn't. Don't worry.
Who me worry, nah, why would I worry. Uh oh, what did I say, oh no, what did I do  , uh, oh, whoops. Can you tell by now that I really like smileys 
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ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
Without trying to be repetitive, hell shows me the reason for a savior. For you who don't believe in either or, one can't force the need to be seen for the other without the other. For me it does, for you, not so much.
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Is Hell the reason you believe in Jesus and God in the first place? If not, then I lack that part and you have an advantage at being convinced by Hell :P[
If so, then if I can think of a scarier consequence than Hell, would you believe whatever I want you to believe? ^-^
No, hell is not the reason I believe in God, and no there is nothing you can think of that I would deem scarier than hell, an eternity of torment in the lake of fire made for satan  and his angels, all of which is an eternity without God.
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Alright, I'll say a little about my disbelief. I usually end up regretting this.. 'cause people always take my personal details and run with it and try to psychoanalyze me and why I don't believe. But whatever..
Whoa, OK, too much information. Just joking. I am glad you shared. I will not analyze you. I will not judge you.
So you know, I took psychology in HS, but didn't like my class, because I was the New Yawka in a new school, where they didn't like us New Yawkas, I don't know what their problem was but, anyway, so I used to take naps.
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Ok, please don't take that and run. HOW I became an atheist is irrelevant to my atheism now.
Run with it I will, and you can't catch me, cause I am the gingerbread man, hahahahaha.
No seriously, I am getting a little carried away with the joking. Again, please take no offense, but there are so many up tight posts, I just want to lighten it up a little.
I wish I could offer answers to why bad things happen to all people everywhere, but I can't. My sister has gone through similar depression bouts, and is also being treated for bi polar disorder. I don't know what it is like to be depressed. Not to say I have never been.
You said that when you wanted to die, religion just happened to find its way in. When I read that, I don't see that as being coincidence. I believe that was Him reaching out to you.
I have never been to a shock site, nor does it sound like I want to see one. I understand how that could make someone angry though.
you said "I felt my existence couldn't be justified if I had no quarrel with a being that could help reduce the tears, but wouldn't, just to test our faith."
I have found that He does help reduce the tears, and also helps to let go of the bitterness. I am saddened that you did not experience the same.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
I don't see it that way. There is no meaning to an atheists life, and have heard many say, "you live and you die, that is it". That my friend is meaningless.
quote:
You're exaggerating the practicalities of that common phrase. Christians say it too. Not because they consciously believe life is meaningless, but because it expresses a state of desperation and pointlessness.
Yes Christians do say, you live and you die, but I would wager , that you wouldn't hear it followed up with, thats it. We all live, we all die, but for us, we know that is not it. As for atheists, I don't exaggerate when I am just repeating what I have heard many of them say. And it always ends with, thats it.
quote:
You'd be surprised. I've discussed this on more atheist friendly boards.. how Christians at time seem oblivious of their belief in Heaven. They say things that sound like an atheist speaking.. yet simultaneously denying the possibility that there is no life after death.
I wouldn't be surprised, but I would be saddened. Nothing surprises me anymore.
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ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
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For me, I find meaning in creating and learning. I read non-stop, I debate non-stop, I think non-stop. That gives me meaning. I find meaning in love, the unknown, and friendship. I find meaning in experiencing life. I find meaning in the fact that the atoms that make up my body have coalesced for such a brief time and will soon disorganize into my death.
Huh, hear you go with that science mumbo jumbo again. , jj. I understand that you can find meaning in many places. The only difference in all that other stuff, is that it is fleeting. It is here today, gone in a NY minute. Love, friends, arguments, stuff, possessions, even the mind will all be gone one day. To me, that is meaningless, to you, maybe not. I do look for those things to, but I understand the fickleness of life, and nothing but the Lord can fulfill me now.
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Well, the point is moot considering I feel your meaning in God will also be gone one day. >.> lol
I hope you know this was not a personal attack. For me, at this point, I cannot see any other reason for being. The only meaning is found in God. I don't see any way around it.
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ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
I hope you got some laughs out of this post. So you know, I do not enjoy arguing.
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hehe, I'm sure you all get laughs out of mine too. :P
Yeah, you have given us some good ones.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 7/7/2008 11:59:41 PM
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PrexicKehdaki
Posts: 190
Joined: 6/26/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
No seriously, I am getting a little carried away with the joking.
lol, no.. I like the jokes :P I'm quick to laugh at just about anything.
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You said that when you wanted to die, religion just happened to find its way in. When I read that, I don't see that as being coincidence. I believe that was Him reaching out to you.
You see God's work in something where I see the act of questioning my entire life inevitably including religion.
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you said "I felt my existence couldn't be justified if I had no quarrel with a being that could help reduce the tears, but wouldn't, just to test our faith."
I have found that He does help reduce the tears, and also helps to let go of the bitterness. I am saddened that you did not experience the same.
There are only degrees in which there is bad in this world and in which there is good.
For as long as there is a single degree of good, you will always be able to make the argument that God IS helping. I don't thank God for that degree of good. I directly thank the fortunate goodness we have in most people.
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Yeah, you have given us some good ones.
lol, hush!
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 7/8/2008 12:16:57 AM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 756
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
Status: offline
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quote:
No seriously, I am getting a little carried away with the joking.
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ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdakilol, no.. I like the jokes :P I'm quick to laugh at just about anything.
So am I, sometimes to a fault. I even laugh at stuff that is not funny in the least, and sometimes when I get angry, to try to stem the tide, and 1 time at band camp,jj 
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You said that when you wanted to die, religion just happened to find its way in. When I read that, I don't see that as being coincidence. I believe that was Him reaching out to you.
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You see God's work in something where I see the act of questioning my entire life inevitably including religion.
I see Gods work in a lot of things that others don't, or maybe I should say, I try to see where God was working in those situations. Sometimes He is covered up by the ugliness, or grandness of that situation.
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you said "I felt my existence couldn't be justified if I had no quarrel with a being that could help reduce the tears, but wouldn't, just to test our faith."
I have found that He does help reduce the tears, and also helps to let go of the bitterness. I am saddened that you did not experience the same.
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There are only degrees in which there is bad in this world and in which there is good.
For as long as there is a single degree of good, you will always be able to make the argument that God IS helping. I don't thank God for that degree of good. I directly thank the fortunate goodness we have in most people.
And I thank God that some people, not most, still have an ounce of goodness left in them. And even when that last ounce is gone, He still is, and will always be the only source of all goodness.
How so you say, hmmmmph, well, He is, and always will be, and He is the author of good, the only true good being in all that exists, so He is the only source of goodness, because He is the reason goodness exists. As long as He is, goodness will be, even if it is not found in man. Make sense. No, didn't think so, but I took a crack at it. I am the ramblin man, that is a song right, or is that rocket man, I confused myself, lol, must be sleep deprived. 
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Yeah, you have given us some good ones.
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lol, hush!
Never.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 7/8/2008 12:38:49 AM
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PrexicKehdaki
Posts: 190
Joined: 6/26/2008
Status: offline
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lol, I have no idea what the first joke was even supposed to be about but I laughed.
Anyways.. there are a ton of questions no one has answered.. specifically about the nature of God.
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 7/8/2008 12:56:56 AM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 756
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
lol, I have no idea what the first joke was even supposed to be about but I laughed.
Anyways.. there are a ton of questions no one has answered.. specifically about the nature of God.
If you don't laugh you ain't livin.
As for unanswered questions of Gods nature, they will have to stay unanswered, for I do not have the answer(nor do I need them to be). What I have is faith. It is not something I can offer to you, it is something you have to grab hold of on your own. What the bible tells me, I believe. I don't follow the old denominational doctrinal interpretations of others. I glean from the bible what I am ready to and able to understand, and being new in my walk, I don't have lots of answers for you. I apologize for my lack of knowledge, but I don't apologize for my faith(no offense).
When I look out on the world I see a creation, in all it's splendor and majesty. When I take a breath, or when I hold my nephew, I know there is a reason for our being. I feel, not just know or believe, that God is real. Nothing about it is easy, especially when something goes wrong, but that doesn't change our purpose. I truly hope that in all you have read, and all jokes aside, that you know God loves you(and I know that for someone who doesn't believe in God, this will be a challenge). I will pray for you. Take care.
Feel free to pm or im me or whatever they call it on here, whenever you want, or if you want to.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 7/8/2008 2:20:36 AM
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OneJohn410
Posts: 691
Joined: 6/1/2008
Status: offline
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Hi PrexicKehdaki,
You've done a fine job of giving the forum maybe 50 questions(?) with minimal thinking expressed to the reader about your general faith. Maybe it won't seem such a monumental task to break down your whole post ? by ?. If it does, I'll come back and see how many I have left to try to answer.
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ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
Nature of God: Where did the specific qualities of God that allowed and allows for his values, wants, likes, dislikes, plans, design, etc... come from if he had always existed? Such as believing a certain sexual act, in his designed world, is morally wrong.
The 'qualities' of God have always been, as in the begining, God was there. You are getting the begining of everything confused by trying to add the Creator to it all somehow. God does not have to consider things before declaring them morally wrong or right. He says it, and it is. He's simply told us how it is, and left the believing up to us.
I'm going to condense this... I can't touch your wordy OP, and all this makes it hard to answer, so I'm taking out all the 'shoulds'. In fact, I'm going to narrow it down specifically to your questions. The rest takes away from them.
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Hell: In what way am I denying God by not being aware he exists when first examining the evidences of all the world religions, then not psychologically "clicking" with any of it to set the belief in motion? Does this have to do more with me actively trying to deny God or [one of the reasons mentioned above that were deleted?] With the above in consideration, am I also in effect actively choosing Hell, as is the common apology? Can I choose to go somewhere I wasn't aware existed?
You are basically denying yourself the knowledge of His saving grace by trying to compare everything the world has to offer and find one thing that is universally accepted. Hmm... try marching into a tribal village that is highly primitive, reaching for some of their food, and then waving a little plastic card that has the word Visa on it. Do you think they'll accept your form of promised payment at a later time? Even science has had things commonly accepted suddenly be disproved later, with much hesitation and denial. It sounds to me like you are looking for the physical world around us to prove the supernatural exists. Choosing things is all fine and good while there are choices to be had. Being given a gift, however, does away with a lot of that. Oh, no, but thanks just the same. I prefer wide-open desert to tropical paradise. Actually, I want to study both, plus the gifts of every other peson I can think of and then choose the best, most accepted one. That's how I hear your thinking on your OP. The challenge I think most atheists face is that God's already set everything up, there's nothing new for Him, and He's determined two locations for everyone who's ever lived to spend eternity in either one or the other. That being an absolute in Christianity, and that the science of the world has no chance to get near either one and study them but for reading the Bible. Kind of a stick in the eye, I'd guess.
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In reference to Jesus_
Assuming the Gospels are accurate accounts of the life of Jesus, how does one compensate with gurus even today convincing people that they can perform many of the miracles Jesus performed? How do you reconcile that Jesus was true in his miracles while Zarathustra, Mohammed, Nanak, Siddhartha Gautama, Sathya Sai Baba, Joseph Smith, Guru Maharishi Mahest Yogi, L. Ron Hubbard, etc. were (or in some cases, are) either frauds, misguided, or didn't really exist?
These other folks- were they dead, resurrected, did they visit with their followers? Did they ascend back to live with their father, and promise to come again and return back to take those who accepted the gift to live in paradise- that'd be the Heaven you've read something about? Were these other people you mentioned, were they with God in the beginning before creation? Jesus was not just all of a sudden a little infant on Earth, unlike all these others. These people you mention, are they all atheists, or did they believe something of another faith? Maybe they all agree with each other about the possibility of a Creator existing, yet do they all hold the same thinking, and if so, why did each have to become so prominent?
Holding up Jesus next to every one of them, did they live flawless lives, lives of humility teaching love for one another and for one's enemies? Or have they just tried to? Prexic, I hope I have not confused you. There's room for Christianity and science on Earth- it's just a question of where someone is going to let a study take them.
OneJohn410
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 7/8/2008 2:49:58 AM
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PrexicKehdaki
Posts: 190
Joined: 6/26/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OneJohn410
quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
Nature of God: Where did the specific qualities of God that allowed and allows for his values, wants, likes, dislikes, plans, design, etc... come from if he had always existed? Such as believing a certain sexual act, in his designed world, is morally wrong.
The 'qualities' of God have always been, as in the begining, God was there. You are getting the begining of everything confused by trying to add the Creator to it all somehow. God does not have to consider things before declaring them morally wrong or right. He says it, and it is. He's simply told us how it is, and left the believing up to us.
Him always having been is the crucial problem in my question. Please read it again.. you really didn't answer the question. I'm asking why such specific qualities exist in a being that was never created. It has nothing to do with me disagreeing with his choice of morals.
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ORIGINAL: OneJohn410
I'm going to condense this... I can't touch your wordy OP, and all this makes it hard to answer, so I'm taking out all the 'shoulds'. In fact, I'm going to narrow it down specifically to your questions. The rest takes away from them.
lol, have at it.
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ORIGINAL: OneJohn410
quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
In what way am I denying God by not being aware he exists when first examining the evidences of all the world religions, then not psychologically "clicking" with any of it to set the belief in motion?
Does this have to do more with me actively trying to deny God or me being (one of the above possible reasons)?
With the above in consideration, am I also in effect actively choosing Hell, as is the common apology? Can I choose to go somewhere I wasn't aware existed?
You are basically denying yourself the knowledge of His saving grace by trying to compare everything the world has to offer and find one thing that is universally accepted. Hmm... try marching into a tribal village that is highly primitive, reaching for some of their food, and then waving a little plastic card that has the word Visa on it. Do you think they'll accept your form of promised payment at a later time? Even science has had things commonly accepted suddenly be disproved later, with much hesitation and denial. It sounds to me like you are looking for the physical world around us to prove the supernatural exists. Choosing things is all fine and good while there are choices to be had. Being given a gift, however, does away with a lot of that. Oh, no, but thanks just the same. I prefer wide-open desert to tropical paradise. Actually, I want to study both, plus the gifts of every other peson I can think of and then choose the best, most accepted one. That's how I hear your thinking on your OP. The challenge I think most atheists face is that God's already set everything up, there's nothing new for Him, and He's determined two locations for everyone who's ever lived to spend eternity in either one or the other. That being an absolute in Christianity, and that the science of the world has no chance to get near either one and study them but for reading the Bible. Kind of a stick in the eye, I'd guess.
...? I don't know what you're trying to answer or say.
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ORIGINAL: OneJohn410
quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
In reference to Jesus_
Assuming the Gospels are accurate accounts of the life of Jesus, how does one compensate with gurus even today convincing people that they can perform many of the miracles Jesus performed? How do you reconcile that Jesus was true in his miracles while Zarathustra, Mohammed, Nanak, Siddhartha Gautama, Sathya Sai Baba, Joseph Smith, Guru Maharishi Mahest Yogi, L. Ron Hubbard, etc. were (or in some cases, are) either frauds, misguided, or didn't really exist?
These other folks- were they dead, resurrected, did they visit with their followers?
Sathya is claimed to have on all three accounts, yes.
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Did they ascend back to live with their father, and promise to come again and return back to take those who accepted the gift to live in paradise- that'd be the Heaven you've read something about? Were these other people you mentioned, were they with God in the beginning before creation?
Those qualities have everything to do with importance to Christians and nothing to do with credibility. I could name off attributes the other god men had that Jesus did not, but to suggest that these attributes give them more credibility is nonsensical. Saying Jesus died for our sins does not make Jesus more credible.. it makes him more important to those who care.
It's important not to skip this question,
"how does one compensate with gurus even today convincing people that they can perform many of the miracles Jesus performed?"
as the second question builds off of it.
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These people you mention, are they all atheists, or did they believe something of another faith? Maybe they all agree with each other about the possibility of a Creator existing, yet do they all hold the same thinking, and if so, why did each have to become so prominent?
They all hold contradicting views on truths. They all convinced people they could perform miracles.
No, they weren't atheists. Most of them started a religion.
They each became prominent partly because people were convinced they could perform miracles and were in contact with the divine.
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