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RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? - 7/1/2008 10:54:46 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
On the right track but floundering.
Paul was not wanting freedom from Roman Citizenship. He was wanting freedom from that which his appeal to Caeser placed him in...
I'm not sure I can agree with that. From the get-go, Paul was told by the Lord that his mission was, "to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake." (from Acts 9)
I believe Paul was glad to have the chance to witness for Jesus Christ in Caesar's presence and to his household and to his guards.
In my view, the result of Paul's appeal was a positive thing to him. (Also, considering that for him to die was, in his opinion, personal gain.)
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RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? - 7/1/2008 1:36:26 PM
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upNORTder
Posts: 227
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quote:
When Peter was threatened by the authority of Jerusalem, he waited upon God to sustain his faith. God sent an angel to release him from his prison bars. Yet, Paul could remember the martyr Stephen, who fell at Paul's very own feet. Perhaps this example was the one uppermost in his mind. Or even James whom Herod slew because it pleased the Jews.
Whatever the focus of Paul's fears, Paul was a Roman citizen, and when challenged by the authority of Jerusalem, appealed to the authority of his citizenship of Rome, instead of his citizenship in heaven. His strength was sought at the throne of Caesar instead of the throne of God. He appealed to the flesh instead of the spirit. It came back to haunt him.
Three times, he stated his Roman citizenship as reason for protection from Jews of Asia, and three times he was afforded this protection. First, his appeal was to a Centurian named Festus, who reported it to a Chief of the Captains, named Lysias, to whom Paul reiterated his citizenship rights. Then Lysias reported it to Felix, to whom Paul again stated "I appeal unto Caesar."
The fact of Paul's freedom in Christ was lost in the chains forged by that same appeal, as stated by Herod Agrippa to Festus - "This man might have been set at liberty, if he had not appealed unto Caesar." [Act 26:32]
So Paul's "appeal unto Caesar" was an appeal to the power of Rome to secure his safety from the Jews of Asia, in a time when the only power on earth that could keep him safe was the strong arm of God, in a kingdom which is not of the earth.
Paul spoke of it as a "messenger of Satan, a thorn in the flesh, to buffett my body" which it did when he was placed in chains and again when he was forced to live under house arrest for several years. He no longer exercised that freedom in Christ that had been characteristic of his preaching for so many years.
Three times he uttered his request for an appeal; three times he prayed that his "thorn" would be lifted from him; three times his prayer was rejected.
What say ye?
In the blood of Christ by the grace of God
and
In the grace of God by the blood of Christ
Theo
Acts 28:11-30 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
Arrival at Rome
11After three months we put out to sea in a ship that had wintered in the island. It was an Alexandrian ship with the figurehead of the twin gods Castor and Pollux. 12We put in at Syracuse and stayed there three days. 13From there we set sail and arrived at Rhegium. The next day the south wind came up, and on the following day we reached Puteoli. 14There we found some brothers who invited us to spend a week with them. And so we came to Rome. 15The brothers there had heard that we were coming, and they traveled as far as the Forum of Appius and the Three Taverns to meet us. At the sight of these men Paul thanked God and was encouraged. 16When we got to Rome, Paul was allowed to live by himself, with a soldier to guard him.
Paul Preaches at Rome Under Guard
17Three days later he called together the leaders of the Jews. When they had assembled, Paul said to them: "My brothers, although I have done nothing against our people or against the customs of our ancestors, I was arrested in Jerusalem and handed over to the Romans. 18They examined me and wanted to release me, because I was not guilty of any crime deserving death. 19But when the Jews objected, I was compelled to appeal to Caesar—not that I had any charge to bring against my own people. 20For this reason I have asked to see you and talk with you. It is because of the hope of Israel that I am bound with this chain."
21They replied, "We have not received any letters from Judea concerning you, and none of the brothers who have come from there has reported or said anything bad about you. 22But we want to hear what your views are, for we know that people everywhere are talking against this sect."
23They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. From morning till evening he explained and declared to them the kingdom of God and tried to convince them about Jesus from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets. 24Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. 25They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: "The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet:
26" 'Go to this people and say,
"You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving."
27For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'
28"Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"
30For two whole years Paul stayed there in his own rented house and welcomed all who came to see him.
The Romans sure had a lenient prison system. It seems that Paul's appeal to Ceasar allowed him the ability to reach quite a few gentiles as Fletch mentioned. His Roman citizenship would have given him credance with his fellow citizens. He also was able to preach to the Jews in Rome. Worked out pretty good, I'd say. Also, Paul's eyes were bad from the time God blinded him, this, I believe was Paul's affliction.
quote:
25They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: "The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet:
26" 'Go to this people and say,
"You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving."
27For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'
If Paul had not gone to Rome, Would this prophecy have been fulfilled?
edited for grammer.
< Message edited by upNORTder -- 7/1/2008 1:44:09 PM >
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RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? - 7/1/2008 1:44:11 PM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
quote:
25They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: "The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet:
26" 'Go to this people and say,
"You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving."
27For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'
If Paul had not gone to Rome, Would this prophecy have been fulfilled?
edited for grammer.
Good point. :)
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RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? - 7/1/2008 3:18:50 PM
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9drtr
Posts: 1587
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Toronto the Good
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: 9drtr
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: doer
the phrase "three times"
is that literally 3 times, or is that a phrase like we say "I asked you a million times" (I am no Greek scholar)
I have read commentaries that have suggested this.
It is factually three times.
The narrative is in english anyway.
What are your credentials?
The narrative is not in English, it is in first century Greek.
The narrative is in English. Once it is translated from the language of origin it becomes a narrative in the new language.
But no translation is perfect. Our comprehension can be complete only in the original language. Thus, the narrative remains in Greek.
Doer's question remains unanswered. Is there a competent Greek scholar on board willing to give an opinion about whether "three times" in this case is literal or figurative?
_____________________________
Edwin
When we know who is coming, how can we worry about what is coming? When the last hour belongs to us, how can we worry about the next minute?
Ross Crighton
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RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? - 7/1/2008 3:23:01 PM
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JimboFletch
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As a general rule in scripture, the phrase indicating completeness (or, in today's English, "the whole nine yards") would use the number seven. And if any NT writer was a biblical scholar, it was Paul.
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RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? - 7/1/2008 4:09:46 PM
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9drtr
Posts: 1587
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From: Toronto the Good
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Yes, seven was often used that way. However, I believe three was also used the same way in - at least some parts of - the middle east at that time. Mind you, I have been wrong before.
I am, however, reluctant to draw an understanding of scripture on one interpretation especially when it looks a little too convenient. I've seen too many pastors get it too wrong.
< Message edited by 9drtr -- 7/1/2008 4:16:11 PM >
_____________________________
Edwin
When we know who is coming, how can we worry about what is coming? When the last hour belongs to us, how can we worry about the next minute?
Ross Crighton
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RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? - 7/1/2008 4:36:50 PM
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rcjames
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In Pauls statement about the "Thorn in the flesh" he says this;
(2Co 12:7) And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
So obviously the thorn in the flesh was a messenger of Satan sent to buffet Paul.
Buffet being a sailing term referring to the waves buffeting a ship (repeatingly slamming against the progress of the ship). So I say look in the context of the wriing for something that was repetative, and that was Paul's constant trials;
(2Co 11:21) I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.
(2Co 11:22) Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
(2Co 11:23) Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
(2Co 11:24) Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
(2Co 11:25) Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
(2Co 11:26) In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
(2Co 11:27) In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
(2Co 11:28) Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
Now that preceeding passage speaks volumns to being buffeted over and over and over.
Now Paul says he ask God to releive him of this buffeting;
(2Co 12:8) For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
(2Co 12:9) And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
(2Co 12:10) Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
But the most important part of this passage is missed by most; the prayer was answered in the positive as Paul was delivered from the constant attack against his ministry in;
(Act 28:28) Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
(Act 28:29) And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
(Act 28:30) And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
(Act 28:31) Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
God deliverd Paul as Paul prayed and let him minister without interference for two whole years (which is much longer than anyother recorded minister went without interference or buffeting from satan).
Praise God for His Mercy and Grace.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? - 7/1/2008 6:23:46 PM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 9drtr
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: 9drtr
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: doer
the phrase "three times"
is that literally 3 times, or is that a phrase like we say "I asked you a million times" (I am no Greek scholar)
I have read commentaries that have suggested this.
It is factually three times.
The narrative is in english anyway.
What are your credentials?
The narrative is not in English, it is in first century Greek.
The narrative is in English. Once it is translated from the language of origin it becomes a narrative in the new language.
But no translation is perfect. Our comprehension can be complete only in the original language. Thus, the narrative remains in Greek.
Doer's question remains unanswered. Is there a competent Greek scholar on board willing to give an opinion about whether "three times" in this case is literal or figurative?
Mat 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. [Grk = tris=3]
Mat 26:75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly. [Grk = tris=3]
Mark 14:30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. [Grk = tris=3]
Mark 14:72 And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept. [Grk = tris=3]
Luke 22:34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me. [Grk = tris=3]
Luke 22:61 And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. [Grk = tris=3]
John 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice. [Grk = tris=3]
Acts 10:16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven. [Grk = tris=3]
Acts 11:10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven. [Grk = tris=3]
2 Cor 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;[Grk = tris=3]
2 Cor 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. [Grk = tris=3]
I see no reason to think it is figurative.
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RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? - 7/3/2008 3:59:48 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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**raises hand** excuse me... if I may say, so far all of this has done nothing but prove my own post. There are a lot of different possibilities that are all "possible" from the text, but the Bible obviously never states exactly what it is. If the Bible did, in fact, specifiy what Paul's 'thorn in the flesh' was, we wouldn't be having this topic.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? - 7/3/2008 7:41:38 AM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
**raises hand** excuse me... if I may say, so far all of this has done nothing but prove my own post. There are a lot of different possibilities that are all "possible" from the text, but the Bible obviously never states exactly what it is. If the Bible did, in fact, specifiy what Paul's 'thorn in the flesh' was, we wouldn't be having this topic.
Adam
I do not insist my position is the only one feasable, nor the only one reasonable. In fact I think all the premises offerred seem reasonable. I just wanted to share another with the readers.
And they have all shared reasonably too. Thanks
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RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? - 7/3/2008 8:12:38 AM
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BibleL7
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Only big problem I have with theory of it being in chains would be that Paul was warned before going to Jerusalem that would happen and he was willing to go through that. So not something I would say could be a thorn given by God to buffet. The given by God and being asked to be delivered of it 3 times does not suggest it being something that Paul was expecting and going toward. More of something Paul was not expecting. Just a thought and it being a thorn in flesh really does seem to be something that was constantly bothering him. The eye problem would seem more likely but may not be it either. We will know when we get there.
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RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? - 7/3/2008 5:47:50 PM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BibleL7
Only big problem I have with theory of it being in chains would be that Paul was warned before going to Jerusalem that would happen and he was willing to go through that. So not something I would say could be a thorn given by God to buffet. The given by God and being asked to be delivered of it 3 times does not suggest it being something that Paul was expecting and going toward. More of something Paul was not expecting. Just a thought and it being a thorn in flesh really does seem to be something that was constantly bothering him. The eye problem would seem more likely but may not be it either. We will know when we get there.
Your point is well spoken. I think it should be remembered however, that it is one thing to be persecuted from the efforts of the world, which I think Paul would not shrink from; it is another thing to suffer persecution because of one's own blunder. And I think Paul blundered when he placed himself under the jurisdiction of the roman Emperor.
And while it is true (as has been pointed out) Paul was allowed to have his own hire dhouse and receive all who would come to hear him, it was not always so. There was quite an extended time prior to Paul's bewing given that freedon, while he was not only in bonds, but called attention to that aspect of his situation. (Acts 26:29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.)
Paul was left in bonds until he had his audience with the Emperor, and also prior to his returning to Rome.
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RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? - 7/3/2008 10:56:08 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2593
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The important issue is not to define what was the "thorn in the flesh" but that despite Paul's pleas for it's removal, its continuance made him depend on Christ all the more.
In these days of tight economic times, are we looking for our solutions in goverment policy or in God's sufficency? Would we trust God should gas go to $50 per gallon?
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RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? - 7/4/2008 7:51:07 PM
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9drtr
Posts: 1587
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
I see no reason to think it is figurative.
Again, since you fail to cite your credentials, there is no reason to consider you a competent Greek scholar.
Quoting the Bible in English proves nothing about your ability to read the Greek.
_____________________________
Edwin
When we know who is coming, how can we worry about what is coming? When the last hour belongs to us, how can we worry about the next minute?
Ross Crighton
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RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? - 7/5/2008 9:51:11 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
some evidence Paul suffered from poor eyesight
Yes this was my thought. Failing eyesight was not uncommon on the onset of old age, due to poor nutrition. That may not have been the case, anyone can suffer poor eyesight in old age.
I think the messenger of Satan would have been some who oppose His message, like the so called super Apostles who were going to the churches that He had planted, to undo his work.
It could have been anything, some lust, sin or physical ailment. Healing was available in those days, and so Paul could have been asking to get healed. His eyesight was not healed. So it could be the eyes, or workers of Satan who opposed him.
For us it could be anything as well.
I just don't think he would make as big of a deal about a physical problem. Heck I am surprised he even had eyes as many times as he was beaten. I think it was something more emotional/spiritual. I think it was the fact that he had killed tons of early Christians. I know it was before his conversion, but I am sure it had to bother him. I have also heard some say they thought it was the Corinthian Church
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? - 7/5/2008 10:11:22 PM
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ta_mosquito
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RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? - 7/10/2008 2:08:42 AM
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TheBibleTRUTH
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You can most certainly prove what the thorn in Paul's flesh was! I will show you!
2 Corinthians 12:7
7) And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
You need to look for other usages of the word thorn in the Bible to help this particular scripture become more clear.
Numbers 33:55
55) But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be ****s in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.
This verse is talking about how people are going to be thorns their side and will vex them if they don't drive the inhabitants.
Micah 7:3-4
3) That they may do evil with both hands earnestly, the prince asketh, and the judge asketh for a reward; and the great man, he uttereth his mischievous desire: so they wrap it up.
4) The best of them is as a brier: the most upright is sharper than a thorn hedge: the day of thy watchmen and thy visitation cometh; now shall be their perplexity.
This verse is talking about how evil, evil men, will be like a brier (the same Hebrew word for thorn), and sharper than a thorn henge.
II Samuel 23:6
6) But the sons of Belial shall be all of them as thorns thrust away, because they cannot be taken with hands:
Ezekiel 2:5-6
5) And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them.
6) And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.
The thorn in Paul's flesh was evil people that would bother him every time he tried to spread God's word. He was jailed, barely escaped with his life, and was beaten by people.
II Corinthians 11:23-25
23) Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24) Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25) Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
People are the only ones that can beat you down with words and discourage you. The Devil sends people to agitate, hinder, discourage, and threaten you. Paul's thorn in the flesh must be people!
Well there you have it! And of course if you seek more answers always ask God to show you. He will!
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RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? - 7/10/2008 8:45:36 AM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
(TheBibleTRUTH) Paul's thorn in the flesh must be people!
I appreciate you well presented post, but there is nothing there that makes me think the "thorn" in Paul's flesh was not his appeal to that very flesh in which the thorn rested; i.e., his appeal to Caesar being an appeal to the strength of flesh.
He made the appeal three times. He was arrested and bound, prayed that his brethren could share his state withholding only his bonds, and was sent in chains to Rome.
The fact that he later was freed from his bonds only alleviates his problem, it does not remove it. He had not the freedom he enjoyed for the several years of his life he spent traveling and convincing the world of the resurrected Christ.
I am not saying you are wrong, as it could very well be correct, I am only sayng it does not convince me I am wrong.
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RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? - 7/10/2008 11:19:42 AM
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CrimsonMoon
Posts: 24
Joined: 6/17/2005
From: Philadelphia, PA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
Paul spoke of it as a "messenger of Satan, a thorn in the flesh, to buffett my body" which it did when he was placed in chains and again when he was forced to live under house arrest for several years. He no longer exercised that freedom in Christ that had been characteristic of his preaching for so many years.
Three times he uttered his request for an appeal; three times he prayed that his "thorn" would be lifted from him; three times his prayer was rejected.
What say ye?
This is a very interesting take that I would not have considered. Yet I do not believe it to be the case.
Paul wanted to go to Rome. He knew that the conversion of Rome would be the key to reaching the Gentiles -- which was his calling. He knew Herod Agrippa was about to release him, and he wanted to get to Rome so badly that he was willing to do it in chains, and so before he could be released, he appealed to Rome.
As to what what his thorn could be. I do not know, but I would think perhaps it had to do with women, as in, he wanted the companionship of a woman/wife and perhaps "longed" for that, while knowing marriage would be an extreme distraction for him and that he would be "concered with the affairs of his wife, rather than of God." So he wanted God to remove that desire (partly sexual, yes) so that he didn't care that he was alone/single etc.
I can see a demon whispering in his ear that his desires are normal, there is nothing wrong with them. Give up the ministy, or just take a break, you deserve it, especially after all the suffering you have gone through for the sake of this God you serve. Why should you not know the love of a woman, even God has said that it is not good for a man to be alone....etc.
But obviously that is just an opinion, but it would just make him very real and his views on singleness more understandable.
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"Be ready always to give a defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope within you" -- Rabbi Cephus, 63 AD
My Blog: Nightmares and Dreamscapes
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RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? - 7/10/2008 2:01:24 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 934
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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None of us has any idea what Paul's thorn was, so I hope everyone understands we are just speculating. That being said, it is kinda interesting to speculate sometimes. 
I can't help but wonder if perhaps Gal 4:12-14 has a small clue...
Galatians 4:12-14
I plead with you, brothers, become like me, for I became like you. You have done me no wrong. As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you. Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself.
Why was Paul's illness a trial to them? And why was Paul surprised that they did not treat him with contempt or scorn? What kind of illness would normally produce those kinds of reactions from others? Dysentery? Leprosy? Either would, no doubt, be humbling.
As I said, it is all speculation, there is probably no connection at all.
Peace
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"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? - 7/10/2008 2:08:25 PM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
(theo) Paul spoke of it as a "messenger of Satan, a thorn in the flesh, to buffett my body" which it did when he was placed in chains and again when he was forced to live under house arrest for several years. He no longer exercised that freedom in Christ that had been characteristic of his preaching for so many years.
Three times he uttered his request for an appeal; three times he prayed that his "thorn" would be lifted from him; three times his prayer was rejected.
What say ye?
(CrimsonMoon) This is a very interesting take that I would not have considered. Yet I do not believe it to be the case.
Paul wanted to go to Rome. He knew that the conversion of Rome would be the key to reaching the Gentiles -- which was his calling.
But it was the Holy Spirit of God who directed Paul's efforts to "Come over into Macedonia and help us." Paul never questioned where he was to go next, but followed the Spirit. He did not select his next goal and ask the Holy Spirit to approve his choice.
quote:
(CrimsonMoon) He knew Herod Agrippa was about to release him, and he wanted to get to Rome so badly that he was willing to do it in chains, and so before he could be released, he appealed to Rome.
First: It had already been prophesied that Paul would go to Jerusalem and be handed to the Gentiles. That does not necessarily mean a trip to Rome.
Second: Paul was ready to die at Jerusalem, and had no concept of going to rome until he appealed the judgment at Jerusalem. "And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus. 11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles. 12 And when we heard these things, both we, and they of that place, besought him not to go up to Jerusalem. 13 Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus." [Acts 21:10-12]
quote:
(CrimsonMoon) As to what what his thorn could be. I do not know, but I would think perhaps it had to do with women, as in, he wanted the companionship of a woman/wife and perhaps "longed" for that, while knowing marriage would be an extreme distraction for him and that he would be "concered with the affairs of his wife, rather than of God." So he wanted God to remove that desire (partly sexual, yes) so that he didn't care that he was alone/single etc.
I can see a demon whispering in his ear that his desires are normal, there is nothing wrong with them. Give up the ministy, or just take a break, you deserve it, especially after all the suffering you have gone through for the sake of this God you serve. Why should you not know the love of a woman, even God has said that it is not good for a man to be alone....etc.
But obviously that is just an opinion, but it would just make him very real and his views on singleness more understandable.
I do not think there is any evidence in all of scripture that would conclude such would be a bother to Paul.
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