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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/6/2008 12:43:36 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3744
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
So he should have cowered in the closet and hope they didn't come into his house?
John
Yes.
The police were on their way to nab the burglars. They would have gotten caught, and received a punishment that was more pertaining to their crime than execution. . .
And when they open the door and put a bullet in his head... Oh well?
John
You're right.
Strike first.
That's what Christ would have done.
Last I checked I wasn't Christ....
John
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/6/2008 2:43:41 PM
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saved9201
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: saved9201
How do you know that? How do you know for sure that the shooter would have at least hesitated a bit longer had the burglars and the exchange student had been white? How do you know if there would be a little less sympathy on the part of the jurors and some of the folks in this forum had those been some white college students? Maybe race wasn't a factor at all, like you say. But are you sure?
- Julius
How do you know for sure that he would not have hesitated if the criminals race had been different.
The two criminals were breaking the law, the man with the gun was not. Nuff said.
Thsnks
RC
I don't know for sure. Do you? Would you?
Yes, the two criminals definitely were breaking the law. But was their punishment worthy of the crime? Did the shooter have a choice? In my opinion, the shooter was lucky. He was lucky with the crooks not firing back and was lucky with the jury. The next person may not be as lucky with either.
Here's something else to consider: Perhaps the two criminals were members of a much larger crime ring who could possibly provide police with valuable information that could save other's lives.
And perhaps some burglars won't be discouraged as you assume, but they'll be packing heavy heat next time and some 61 year old man with a shotgun won't stand a chance because they'll shoot first. In fact, maybe they'll be expecting everybody to be packing so they just shoot everyone in the house first, including the women and children before they take off with the goods. My point? The lesson you assume the criminals learned from this incident may not be the lesson they actually did learn.
- Julius
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/6/2008 2:55:46 PM
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saved9201
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
I was thinking many would probably think it unfortunate had he decided to go outside to do what he did... but instead got shot/killed by them first.  IMO, it was just a dumb decision to go outside. He made the situation something it did NOT have to become.
Exactly. That's all I'm trying to say.
- Julius
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/6/2008 3:34:32 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Actually those breaking the law created the situation...
John
Careful John, do not get to sensible or you will give the libs a diaper rash.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/6/2008 3:50:06 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2003
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Actually those breaking the law created the situation...
John
Careful John, do not get to sensible or you will give the libs a diaper rash.
Thsnks
RC
Easy on the trigger, cowboy.
_____________________________
-Ben-
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/6/2008 4:18:32 PM
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saved9201
Posts: 653
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: saved9201
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: saved9201
How do you know that? How do you know for sure that the shooter would have at least hesitated a bit longer had the burglars and the exchange student had been white? How do you know if there would be a little less sympathy on the part of the jurors and some of the folks in this forum had those been some white college students? Maybe race wasn't a factor at all, like you say. But are you sure?
- Julius
How do you know for sure that he would not have hesitated if the criminals race had been different.
The two criminals were breaking the law, the man with the gun was not. Nuff said.
Thsnks
RC
I don't know for sure. Do you? Would you?
Yes, the two criminals definitely were breaking the law. But was their punishment worthy of the crime? Did the shooter have a choice? In my opinion, the shooter was lucky. He was lucky with the crooks not firing back and was lucky with the jury. The next person may not be as lucky with either.
Here's something else to consider: Perhaps the two criminals were members of a much larger crime ring who could possibly provide police with valuable information that could save other's lives.
And perhaps some burglars won't be discouraged as you assume, but they'll be packing heavy heat next time and some 61 year old man with a shotgun won't stand a chance because they'll shoot first. In fact, maybe they'll be expecting everybody to be packing so they just shoot everyone in the house first, including the women and children before they take off with the goods. My point? The lesson you assume the criminals learned from this incident may not be the lesson they actually did learn.
- Julius
Perhaps a mole will dig a hole in just the right place and they will trip and shoot themsleves with their Tec 9....
John
Moles always pack Uzi's. Everybody knows that.
- Julius
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/6/2008 4:21:00 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3744
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
He didn't have to exit his home.
Neither did the criminals, nor did they have to break into another person's home...
quote:
I said that he made the situation something it DID NOT HAVE TO BECOME.
I tend to place more of that blame on those breaking the law...
John
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/6/2008 4:21:10 PM
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saved9201
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
I was thinking many would probably think it unfortunate had he decided to go outside to do what he did... but instead got shot/killed by them first. IMO, it was just a dumb decision to go outside. He made the situation something it did NOT have to become.
Actually those breaking the law created the situation...
John
Totally agree. And those breaking the law include Mr. Horn, who, fortunately for him, got his day in court and lucked out with a sympathetic jury.
- Julius
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/6/2008 6:06:48 PM
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Marcus.
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Considering that the officer on the scene backed up Mr Horn's version of what happened once outside, I don't see him breaking his local laws.
The way he did wasn't very wise though.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/6/2008 10:43:48 PM
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stellaluna
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quote:
ORIGINAL: saved9201
And those breaking the law include Mr. Horn, who, fortunately for him, got his day in court and lucked out with a sympathetic jury.
- Julius
Except that Texas law is on his side, meaning he didn't break the law, and he never went to trial--he was never indicted.
Most of these arguments are moot, because Texas clearly says you can use deadly force against another person. If you don't like it, you'll have to move to Texas and attempt to have the law changed.
_____________________________
CW Underground
"In one century, we went from teaching Greek and Latin in lower schools to teaching remedial English in colleges."
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/6/2008 11:50:48 PM
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1love1God1way
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The arguments are not moot from a moral standpoint, however.
_____________________________
-Ben-
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/7/2008 1:52:44 AM
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Leon_Figg3
Posts: 522
Joined: 4/24/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: saved9201
quote:
ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3
The basic problem with your question is that you are quite clearly attempting to change the focus of the issue away from one's Constitutional right to own weapons and lawfully defend oneself to that of race.
No. I'm trying to change the focus on the issue away from one's
own Constitutional right to own weapons and one's personal responsibilty to use them wisely. In this case, the shooter clearly wasn't using a weapon to defend himself. People here keep adding their own, "what if" scenarios - what if one of the victims was Ted Bundy; what if the victims later came back and killed everyone in the neighborhood. I've inserted my own "what if" scenario into the equation. I don't believe we should be able to kill someone base on what we think they may do later on. Further, last I checked, the penalty for burglary or trespassing wasn't death.
quote:
No where in the story does the race of the victims play a factor. Aside from that, unless it was a clear case of out and out murder, I would imagine that any racial aspect of this story or the other tragic story you sighted could easily be proven.
How do you know that? How do you know for sure that the shooter would have at least hesitated a bit longer had the burglars and the exchange student had been white? How do you know if there would be a little less sympathy on the part of the jurors and some of the folks in this forum had those been some white college students? Maybe race wasn't a factor at all, like you say. But are you sure?
- Julius
Point #1 I am not inserting a "what if" scenario. I am looking at the case as described in rews reports. I am sorry to say that though I have heard of the tragic case of the exchange student, I do not remember much of the details.
"I believe we should be able to kill someone base[d] in what we think they may do later on."
In other words we should not be able to defend ourselves or our neighbors in any, regardless of what the law says because you feel that it is not within your concept of human nature to fear the unknown, to fear that which is not familiar. It is not within your concept of human nature to feel threatened in any way shape or form.
Please share your secret with the rest of us.
Point #2 I know that race did not play a part in the case because I read a newspaper transcription of the 911 call. No where in the transcription does anyone, especially Mr. Horn's identify the race/ ethnicity of the people he shot. Not even Mr. Horn's race/ ethnicity was mentioned.
As far as the court decision, I would say that those involved judged the case solely in regard to the letter and spirit of the law.
One does a disservice to everyone and every issue by turning every issue into a racial issue, or a question of race. If we are ever going to create a color blind society, we need to stop making every causation/ consideration involved in a particular case a matter/ question of race.
Look at the immigration issue. Instead of looking at all the various aspects and side issues of the problem in a clear understandable way, and work towards a solution, we as a society; as a citizenry can not even talk about any part/ aspect of the issue without charges of racism being used to intimidate and silence discussion and problem solving. The issue was hijacked by people more interested in raising the question of race rather than actually doing something about the real/ central issues.
You either believe justice is blind or you do not. If you feel that justice is not blind, then you must work to ensure that it become blind and that means that justice is not blinded by the race/ ethnicity/ history of either the victim or the law breaker. You must provide proof that such concerns are as great and prevalent as you believe they are so that laws coulld be changed/ written to take such aspects into account.
Are there questionable aspects of this case, and the case of the exchange student? Yes, but race was clearly not an aspect of the situtations itself at the time it happened. Race became an issue after the race/ ethnicity of the people involved became known.
I, myself, would question the actions of the one who received the 911 call (how do you attempt to defuse a situation by telling someone he must not act in the manner in which he clearly has shown he knows he has a right and a responsibility to act in simply by telling him he shouldn't). I would question the age and mental status of Mr. Horn (exactly why did he feel threatened to the degree he did). However you look at the case(s) the question remains as to whether or not the person reacted to the situation in a responsible and understandable manner. A manner in which an average individual could responablly be expected to act in (ie The Good Samaritan Law).
You asked am I sure that race did not play a role. A better question would be what makes you so sure that race did/ does in light of the fact that there was no way the shooter could have known for sure what race/ ethnecity his victims were at the time of the shooting.
< Message edited by Leon_Figg3 -- 7/7/2008 10:30:27 AM >
_____________________________
To whom much is given, much is expected. Luke 12:48
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/7/2008 9:06:03 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 720
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quote:
ORIGINAL: saved9201
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
I think the problem some are having with this argument is that first of all, you are assuming everyone responding in favor of the court's decision on Mr. Horn are white folks, and secondly you are asking a question that assumes those people to be racists.
Wrong on both counts. There are some black folks who, because of the neighborhoods in which they live, feel more threatened by other blacks than by whites. Last year, an NFL football player, Sean Taylor, was placed on probation for illegal weapons charges and as part of his probation, was prohibited from owning any firearms. If he violated this probation, he was facing jail time as well as suspension from the NFL. So these burglars who obviously read the newspapers which pretty much advertised, "Rich NFL player lives in mansion and has no guns" invaded his home one night. Taylor had to defend himself with a machete', and was fatally shot by the burglars. The burglars were black. Taylor's life was threatened and his fiance's and his child were also in the house. If he had illegally owned a firearm, he could have defended himself, but could have ended up in jail for violating his probation and faced suspension from the NFL. Unless he was as fortunate as Mr. Horn and gotten a sympathetic jury. As the saying goes, "It's better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6." Taylor was tragically carried by six.
Also, I'm not assuming anyone to be racist. I'm just asking the question which apparently some people have a hard time answering, they'd rather critique my motives. And I'm only asking those who have absolutely no problem with what Mr. Horn did and are holding him up to be some sort of cult hero. As the case indicated, Horn didn't follow the letter of the Castle Law and he disobeyed law enforcement, and yet the jury found in his favor. There were people in the city of Pasadena, TX who also raised concerns that race may have been a factor in Mr. Horn's actions and in the verdict. I'm simply asking. Not accusing.
- Julius
I wasn't speaking of specific incidents. I too could come up with many examples of black on black or white on white racism, but they have no bearing on the case we're discussing now.
And I do not have a hard time answering the question, I would feel the same way regardless of race. The burglars would not have been shot if they were not there breaking into someone's house period.
If you are asking if Mr. Horn is a racist, well then I suppose you can only get the answer from him, not those of us here on this forum, and even then you'd have to wonder if he was telling the truth.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/7/2008 10:18:40 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 1991
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So the lesson to the rest of America is to stay off people's property in Texas because if you might stop and approach someones house to ask directions you may be justifiably shot if the owner of the property felt "threatened" by a stranger approaching his door.
None of the pro-shooting advocates have addressed the issue that Mr. Horn IN HIS OWN WORDS has admitted that IT WAS A MISTAKE and that he doesn't want ANYONE TO DO WHAT HE DID! So Mr. Horn isn't as sure as some people are on this board that what he did was "right" even if it was considered "legal". At least that man has a consience!
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/7/2008 10:23:33 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1178
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: online
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As far as I can tell from Mr. Horn's comments, he regrets going out there to see if he could get a license plate number or figure out which way they were going (which was stupid), but does not regret shooting the men in order to defend himself.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/7/2008 10:28:49 AM
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upNORTder
Posts: 223
Joined: 7/20/2006
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Too many people trust Smth and Wesson more than they trust God.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/7/2008 10:30:28 AM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1151
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From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
Too many people trust Smth and Wesson more than they trust God.
I THANK God that He allows me to HAVE a S&W (or Glock as the case may be).
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/7/2008 10:31:27 AM
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StephK
Posts: 1792
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
Too many people trust Smth and Wesson more than they trust God.
David trusted God - and carried 5 stones and a sling when h | | | |
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