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RE: Is God green? - 7/7/2008 9:44:29 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
I hope it's only for automobiles!
Taken to the extreme, I suppose this now gives the EPA the authority to regulate all oxygen breathing life forms on earth as well as earthquakes & volcanoes; at least according to the Supreme Court's decision on CO2 as a pollutant.
Funny, I thought that decision was up to the Supreme Being.
Yes! I agree with you! That is what I have been trying to say!
This whole global warming theory is being taken WAY too far, and it boils down to the fact that there are people trying to get more power and money.
Edit: well except for hoping it's for automobiles. That makes no sense unless you are willing to go as far as say that human breath is also a pollutant.
"I hope the ruling never goes beyond automobiles" is perhaps the way I should have phrased it; Because it's bad law, CO2 is not a pollutant but a naturally occuring gas.
And power & money people sit on both sides, I'm assuming that you didn't realize the link you referenced earlier about the Antarctic was tied to an organization ExxonMobil gave $100,000.
FYI - It's not patronizing to point out the flaw in a person's arguement, just darn annoying! 
Well I don't think it should be in place for automobiles either! I mean, if someone really thinks CO2 is such a horrible pollutant, then why would they want to stop at automobiles?
As far as my link, saying the site had ties to ExxonMobil is probably a pretty far stretch.
And I did not mean to say you were patronizing in the fact that you disagree with someone, only in the way you say it.
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RE: Is God green? - 7/7/2008 9:54:04 AM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 416
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
I hope it's only for automobiles!
Taken to the extreme, I suppose this now gives the EPA the authority to regulate all oxygen breathing life forms on earth as well as earthquakes & volcanoes; at least according to the Supreme Court's decision on CO2 as a pollutant.
Funny, I thought that decision was up to the Supreme Being.
Yes! I agree with you! That is what I have been trying to say!
This whole global warming theory is being taken WAY too far, and it boils down to the fact that there are people trying to get more power and money.
Edit: well except for hoping it's for automobiles. That makes no sense unless you are willing to go as far as say that human breath is also a pollutant.
"I hope the ruling never goes beyond automobiles" is perhaps the way I should have phrased it; Because it's bad law, CO2 is not a pollutant but a naturally occuring gas.
And power & money people sit on both sides, I'm assuming that you didn't realize the link you referenced earlier about the Antarctic was tied to an organization ExxonMobil gave $100,000.
FYI - It's not patronizing to point out the flaw in a person's arguement, just darn annoying!
Well I don't think it should be in place for automobiles either! I mean, if someone really thinks CO2 is such a horrible pollutant, then why would they want to stop at automobiles?
As far as my link, saying the site had ties to ExxonMobil is probably a pretty far stretch.
And I did not mean to say you were patronizing in the fact that you disagree with someone, only in the way you say it.
I agree "ties to ExxonMobil" is a stretch, but saying - "tied to an organization ExxonMobil gave $100,000" is not.
Trying not to be patronizing, but I can repost the links from my earlier post if you like.
Have to agree with the last poster, this has ventured far off topic from "Is God Green?"
Yes, He is. Man, not so much.
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RE: Is God green? - 7/7/2008 1:49:30 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5257
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
I agree "ties to ExxonMobil" is a stretch, but saying - "tied to an organization ExxonMobil gave $100,000" is not.
Yes, He is. Man, not so much.
Is considering Exxon/Mobil the AntiChrist a normal ecoterrorist thingy or is it just your personal balliwick.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is God green? - 7/7/2008 6:15:09 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
Joined: 1/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
Well I don't think it should be in place for automobiles either! I mean, if someone really thinks CO2 is such a horrible pollutant, then why would they want to stop at automobiles?
As far as my link, saying the site had ties to ExxonMobil is probably a pretty far stretch.
And I did not mean to say you were patronizing in the fact that you disagree with someone, only in the way you say it.
I agree "ties to ExxonMobil" is a stretch, but saying - "tied to an organization ExxonMobil gave $100,000" is not.
Trying not to be patronizing, but I can repost the links from my earlier post if you like.
Have to agree with the last poster, this has ventured far off topic from "Is God Green?"
Yes, He is. Man, not so much.
It depends on what Exxon gave them the money for. It doesn't necessarily mean that that company is in bed with oil companies. And I already read the links, that is usually one thing I do do before replying to someone about it. 
Anyway, IMO it is not really off topic, the word "green" can mean many things. So as far as asking the question is God green, green needs to be defined. Does it mean in the normal "don't mess things up on purpose" or does it mean green like the nutty environmentalist kind of green? And I think one's answer to the question on CO2 being a pollutant is a pretty good indicator of where they rank on the nutty scale. 
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RE: Is God green? - 7/7/2008 7:37:51 PM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 416
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
I agree "ties to ExxonMobil" is a stretch, but saying - "tied to an organization ExxonMobil gave $100,000" is not.
Yes, He is. Man, not so much.
Is considering Exxon/Mobil the AntiChrist a normal ecoterrorist thingy or is it just your personal balliwick.
Thsnks
RC
Of course not. Is considering a major oil company ecologically friendly yours?
A site touting the build up of Antartic ice as a "reason" there is no global warming, in direct contention with a NASA study that implies "potential asymmetry between the two poles" begs the question - who funded the science?
I trust NASA, and their motives.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
It depends on what Exxon gave them the money for. It doesn't necessarily mean that that company is in bed with oil companies. And I already read the links, that is usually one thing I do do before replying to someone about it.
But in light of the NASA study (and their failure to mention it) it does beg the question as to their motives. I disregarded dozens of "eco-crazy" sites for the same reason.
quote:
Anyway, IMO it is not really off topic, the word "green" can mean many things. So as far as asking the question is God green, green needs to be defined. Does it mean in the normal "don't mess things up on purpose" or does it mean green like the nutty environmentalist kind of green? And I think one's answer to the question on CO2 being a pollutant is a pretty good indicator of where they rank on the nutty scale.
I would say - "Don't mess things up on purpose" would be a good definition. I think the problems of discussion come in when it's presented as "what's messed up & how do we fix it".
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RE: Is God green? - 7/8/2008 5:57:48 PM
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PaleHawkWoman
Posts: 329
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Seems we've got two different threads going on here - there's the anti-green crowd which is talking about the radical lunatic fringe of the green movement, and there's the good stewardship crowd that's talking about basic responsible use of resources.
I think we can all agree that the radical greens are off base.
The question, though, is God "green". Can we please define "green"? Is it the radical's or are we including people like me that happen to argue for sustainable use? I think the sustainable use idea is really quite Godly - it seems to be the very definition of good stewardship.
That's what I've been trying to say- good stewardship. Don't pollute - clean up after yourself. Take care of the environment by using what is needed, using wisely, and not wasting, putting back in kind, and recycling. It costs more to make new paper, glass, metals, and plastics than it does to recycle used materials. Industry and individuals alike need to be held accountable for wise use of materials and cleaning up emissions so that the health of others is not affected by pollutants.
Use selective cutting methods for taking trees and plant replacement trees in a variety of species to sustain the health of the forest. Use the remnants of wood processing and used plastic to make wood polymer siding,posts, and boards, which lasts longer than wood and is stronger and safer than vinyl.
To me "green" means treating God's creation with respect, using only what we need, and replacing what we take.
It means not polluting the air, land, and water and cleaning up where we have polluted. We may not be affected by the pollution we make today, but our children and grandchildren will.
It means saving wild places so that not only do we enable someof God's creatures some space to live and even thrive, but we can show our children the beauty and majesty of His handiwork.
It means using sensible and sustainable agricultural methods so that soil is not depleted or eroded, and waters are not polluted by run-off from crops or livestock operations.
Mostly being "green" to me is to remember that this is God's world not ours, that every plant and animal, every rock and stone, every hill and valley, the water and land and air- everything is His and we have an obligation to Him to treat His property with the utmost respect. In short we need to remember we are supposed to be stewards and caretakers and quit acting like we're just renters.
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RE: Is God green? - 7/9/2008 4:08:07 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 866
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
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Even renters should be caring for the property they are renting, although a lot of them don't.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: PaleHawkWoman
Mostly being "green" to me is to remember that this is God's world not ours, that every plant and animal, every rock and stone, every hill and valley, the water and land and air- everything is His and we have an obligation to Him to treat His property with the utmost respect. In short we need to remember we are supposed to be stewards and caretakers and quit acting like we're just renters.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Is God green? - 7/10/2008 12:19:38 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 321
Joined: 6/7/2008
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quote:
Anyway, IMO it is not really off topic, the word "green" can mean many things. So as far as asking the question is God green, green needs to be defined.
Okay, since I started the thread, I'll define what I meant. First, being green as I see it means embracing the lifestyle and philosophies of the modern environmental movement, and specifically seeing human beings living their lives as a threat to the life and health of the planet. Secondly, and most ominously, being green carries with it a commitment to social and political action to rectify counteract man's effect.
My question is, is it wise for christians and churches to adopt the green label and cause, even assigning the label to God?
My opinion - no, we shouldn't. The environmental movement has been hopelessly corrupted by secular progressive and marxist ideologies, and the science used to support their claims of impending eco-peril is dubious, at best. Yet, I see these claims being unquestioningly accepted, while thousands of dissenting scientific voices are stiffled.
So, mine is a call for a return to critical thinking and wisdom to view environmentalism for what it is, an ideologically driven movement with a dreadful, even tragic, history, yet one that still wields incredible influence on popular culture and society.
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RE: Is God green? - 7/10/2008 12:26:36 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2593
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
So, mine is a call for a return to critical thinking and wisdom to view environmentalism for what it is, an ideologically driven movement with a dreadful, even tragic, history, yet one that still wields incredible influence on popular culture and society.
A return to critical thinking and a judeo-christian worldview is sadly needed. Thoughts do have consequences:
Sow a thought, reap an action
Sow an action, reap a habit
Sow a habit, reap a character
Sow a character, reap a destiny,
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RE: Is God green? - 7/10/2008 12:37:49 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2731
Joined: 11/16/2007
Status: online
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In that case, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the way you've framed the question.
First, that's not reflective of the broader modern green movement, although it's an adequate description of the more radical elements within it. I'm not comfortable describing the entire movement in this manner.
Second, humans do have impacts on the environment and remediation of some of those impacts is necessary. Granted, we need to account for the costs of those remediation efforts and make sure that what we're getting a decent bang for our buck.
So, I think what you've accidentally presented us with is to some degree a false choice. I think there is more to the green movement than you may be aware of.
For example, my employer is at the forefront of the green movement in the commercial real estate space. We insist that our new development efforts be done with green standards in mind. Those developments are more expensive to build, but the efficiencies we create mean that we can charge higher rents in return. Our tenants win - their overall cost of occupancy is lower. We win - our return on investment is better. The greenies win - our environmental load is significantly reduced.
That's straight down the middle green, and decidedly not Marxist. Secularly progressive? Not really - if anything it's a Christianized capitalism (most of the execs in my firm appear to be very strong Christians. I'm extremely fortunate to work for this firm.)
Again, I think there are two threads going on simultaneously here that are talking past each other. You seem to have a radical green philosophy in mind, while I'm thinking more of the mainstream current-day green movement.
To be fair, I think your description of the green movement might have been more accurate in the early days of the movement. As the movement has broadened, many of those voices have been subsumed in a more moderate approach to environmental issues.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Is God green? - 7/10/2008 2:03:22 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2593
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
Those developments are more expensive to build, but the efficiencies we create mean that we can charge higher rents in return
But what happens to those who cannot afford the higher costs of rent, fuel,. food, etc. You have destroyed the middle class and have just two: the rich and the poor. All in the name of junk science.
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RE: Is God green? - 7/10/2008 2:06:28 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2731
Joined: 11/16/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
Those developments are more expensive to build, but the efficiencies we create mean that we can charge higher rents in return
But what happens to those who cannot afford the higher costs of rent, fuel,. food, etc. You have destroyed the middle class and have just two: the rich and the poor. All in the name of junk science.
You didn't read the rest of it - we can charge higher rents because they're overall cost of occupancy is lower. You pay more in rent, but less in utilities. On balance, you're paying less. That's not junk science in the least - it's fairly straightforward engineering & economics. How many BTU's can I save by having a green (literally!) roof. How much does a BTU cost? How much does the roof cost? It's a fairly straightforward equation.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Is God green? - 7/10/2008 2:41:41 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2593
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From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
You didn't read the rest of it - we can charge higher rents because they're overall cost of occupancy is lower. You pay more in rent, but less in utilities. On balance, you're paying less.
But what about the other costs: food, fuel, ??? And to forget the dems who are constantly raising taxes b/c of the raising prices.
Still all in the name of junk science? The global freezing movemet was junk science in the 70's and it is junk science now. The only one getting rich are individuals such as Pope Albore of the Church of the Greenies!
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RE: Is God green? - 7/10/2008 3:41:56 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2731
Joined: 11/16/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
You didn't read the rest of it - we can charge higher rents because they're overall cost of occupancy is lower. You pay more in rent, but less in utilities. On balance, you're paying less.
But what about the other costs: food, fuel, ??? And to forget the dems who are constantly raising taxes b/c of the raising prices.
Still all in the name of junk science? The global freezing movemet was junk science in the 70's and it is junk science now. The only one getting rich are individuals such as Pope Albore of the Church of the Greenies!
One more time, I think we're not talking about the same thing. If you want to talk about the fringe elements within the green movement, we can do that. If you want to talk about global warming (actually a small portion of the green concern, just one that's getting the publicity right now), we can do that too. Or, we can talk about the mainstream collective green community which is much broader than your definition would include.
Your header here, though, is a question of whether or not God is green. As defined by you, encompassing the more radical fringe, the consensus answer is no. As defined by me in terms of the broader green movement generally, then the consensus answer leans toward a qualified yes in that we are generally admonished to be good stewards and not messing in our own beds.
BT
Edit: As you point out, not all in the green movement makes 100% sense. No human institution ever does. The whole oil/ethanol issue and turning food into fuel, for example, has been discussed here, and we agree it's not great policy. Nonetheless, there are a host of green initiatives (including green real estate development) that can make both environmental as well as economic sense.
It's a trite phrase, but the words "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" form an appropriate reminder on this issue.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Is God green? - 7/10/2008 4:53:58 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2593
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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My point is the green movement is driving up the cost of living for everyone with no impact on the environment at all. My guess is that the facilities that are designed to be "green" are aimed for the upper income bracket. They can feel good about "saving the planet" and yet have diddly-squat of an impact on the planet.
Our socialist of a mayor says his aim is to get everyone away from single family homes and into high rise buildings. In that vein, he wants to build a train system that even the wastefull Federal government says will not work.
In general, the green movement leaders want a lower lifestyle for everyone but themselves. They can fly on gas-guzzling private jets and pay for their "sins" with carbon credits that do nothing more than enrich themselves.
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RE: Is God green? - 7/10/2008 11:24:48 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2335
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PaleHawkWoman
That's what I've been trying to say- good stewardship. Don't pollute - clean up after yourself. Take care of the environment by using what is needed, using wisely, and not wasting, putting back in kind, and recycling. It costs more to make new paper, glass, metals, and plastics than it does to recycle used materials. Industry and individuals alike need to be held accountable for wise use of materials and cleaning up emissions so that the health of others is not affected by pollutants.
Use selective cutting methods for taking trees and plant replacement trees in a variety of species to sustain the health of the forest. Use the remnants of wood processing and used plastic to make wood polymer siding,posts, and boards, which lasts longer than wood and is stronger and safer than vinyl.
To me "green" means treating God's creation with respect, using only what we need, and replacing what we take.
It means not polluting the air, land, and water and cleaning up where we have polluted. We may not be affected by the pollution we make today, but our children and grandchildren will.
It means saving wild places so that not only do we enable someof God's creatures some space to live and even thrive, but we can show our children the beauty and majesty of His handiwork.
It means using sensible and sustainable agricultural methods so that soil is not depleted or eroded, and waters are not polluted by run-off from crops or livestock operations.
Mostly being "green" to me is to remember that this is God's world not ours, that every plant and animal, every rock and stone, every hill and valley, the water and land and air- everything is His and we have an obligation to Him to treat His property with the utmost respect. In short we need to remember we are supposed to be stewards and caretakers and quit acting like we're just renters.
Another excellent, insightful post PaleHawkWoman! I like your definition of green best!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Is God green? - 7/11/2008 6:59:51 AM
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davemiller7
Posts: 866
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
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There some circumstances where things will not come clean with just plain soap and water. Washing a greasy oily factory floor with Ivory Soap or getting an auto mechanics hands clean with a bar of Dove doesn't work.
Taking a stone to a toilet bowl will scratch through the porcelain glaze, making the bowl retain much more "bad stuff" in the future.
Years ago, I worked with a man who wouldn't use toothpaste. He brushed his teeth with baking soda. He had nice looking teeth, but his breath smelled like an open sewer. I don't know your take on mouthwash, but something like that is definitely needed if you don't use toothpaste.
Being a guy, I can't address facial concoctions. I use plain soap and water!
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dragonnie
 Palehawkwoman mentioned poisonous chemicals popularly in use by corporations and individuals.
I'm strongly in favor of ditching all these fancy cleaning products for just plain soap, or baking soda, or boiling water. Saves U money, too.
You can get a stone to clean the toilet bowl, and count it as part of your workout.
you can spray soapy water on plant pests -- they die of diarreah.
who needs Lysol spray? Just keep things clean and open the windows.
To brush your teeth all U need is salt or peroxide. Fluoride is dangerous.
I don't pay $30-90 a month on facial concoctions, I use a few drops of good oil with water, and eat healthy.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Is God green? - 7/11/2008 7:56:38 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1652
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
Our socialist of a mayor says his aim is to get everyone away from single family homes and into high rise buildings. In that vein, he wants to build a train system that even the wastefull Federal government says will not work.
Don't knock it till you've tried it. Because of our public transit system, it's easier for me to get into and around downtown Boston than it is for me to get from one suburb to another. If I worked in downtown, I could take the train into work and actually save myself money. If your city is growing, building up is a better way to go than building out.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Is God green? - 7/11/2008 8:16:55 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2335
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
Our socialist of a mayor says his aim is to get everyone away from single family homes and into high rise buildings. In that vein, he wants to build a train system that even the wastefull Federal government says will not work.
Don't knock it till you've tried it. Because of our public transit system, it's easier for me to get into and around downtown Boston than it is for me to get from one suburb to another. If I worked in downtown, I could take the train into work and actually save myself money. If your city is growing, building up is a better way to go than building out.
-Dan.
Unfortuntely the more crowded our cities become the more high rise living will become normal. In LA more people are moving to high rise condos. The main reason people are moving back into the city and away from suberb living is because they've realized that the only thing a long commute gets you is high blood pressure and one less week of your life with your family. Unless you consider spending time in a car "living".
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Is God green? - 7/11/2008 8:48:47 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1652
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Unfortuntely the more crowded our cities become the more high rise living will become normal. In LA more people are moving to high rise condos. The main reason people are moving back into the city and away from suberb living is because they've realized that the only thing a long commute gets you is high blood pressure and one less week of your life with your family. Unless you consider spending time in a car "living".
Why is that unfortunate? That's a better solution than building more 2-3 story dwellings in the burbs which would make traffic worse and commuting more expensive.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Is God green? - 7/11/2008 9:11:25 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
quote:
Anyway, IMO it is not really off topic, the word "green" can mean many things. So as far as asking the question is God green, green needs to be defined.
Okay, since I started the thread, I'll define what I meant. First, being green as I see it means embracing the lifestyle and philosophies of the modern environmental movement, and specifically seeing human beings living their lives as a threat to the life and health of the planet. Secondly, and most ominously, being green carries with it a commitment to social and political action to rectify counteract man's effect.
My question is, is it wise for christians and churches to adopt the green label and cause, even assigning the label to God?
My opinion - no, we shouldn't. The environmental movement has been hopelessly corrupted by secular progressive and marxist ideologies, and the science used to support their claims of impending eco-peril is dubious, at best. Yet, I see these claims being unquestioningly accepted, while thousands of dissenting scientific voices are stiffled.
So, mine is a call for a return to critical thinking and wisdom to view environmentalism for what it is, an ideologically driven movement with a dreadful, even tragic, history, yet one that still wields incredible influence on popular culture and society.
I agree.
While some aspects of what the environmentalists are calling for may actually be good ideas, they have turned into a guilt-induced money-making scheme in my opinion. It's becoming a way that some are seeing they can control the general population and make a good amount of money in the process.
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RE: Is God green? - 
