|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 3:56:07 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
SovereignIsHe wrote: The same Christ Jesus who plainly told Pilate that his power to take life was came from above?
Does that make what Pilate does right?
For the thieves, yes... But not for Christ since Pilate said himself he couldn't find no wrong with him...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 4:18:19 PM
|
|
|
hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
SovereignIsHe wrote: The same Christ Jesus who plainly told Pilate that his power to take life was came from above?
Does that make what Pilate does right?
For the thieves, yes... But not for Christ since Pilate said himself he couldn't find no wrong with him...
John
SovIsHe,
I'm not trying to conduct an argument here exactly, but it seems I can use what you are saying -- IF I am interpreting it correctly -- to illustrate that point that I have been mostly unsuccessfully trying to make.
But, first, let me ask, are you saying that Pilate is doing wrong as a person in authority precisely because THOUGH he could find no wrong with Jesus, he went ahead and proceeded with his sentencing NOT because it was lawful, but because it was the will of the CROWD. This was exactly what I was talking about. This, I say, could be a perfect illustration of when an authority cedes the respect he deserves by failing to rely on the duty with which his position is inscribed and instead looks from without for another criteria for his action: in this case, skipping ove rlaw in favor of the will of a mob. I say this type of behavior can also be observed in other persons in authority, such as Hitler and in less obvious ways by all communists, to name a couple of examples.
Thanks for your consideration.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 4:41:43 PM
|
|
|
loloidong
Posts: 60
Joined: 7/8/2008
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline
|
Pilate was responsible for his sheepish response to the crowd. However, just like anywhere else, there would be mistakes even in the fairest of courts. But this does not remove governments from its divine appointed ministerial duty of providing justice. The Roman government was known for democracy but also for corruption and yet Paul recommends believers to obey the government even though it was also an imperfect one. If we are concentrating on one mistake we must also be worried about the mistake of not giving justice to where justice is deserved. If we are to abort punishment all together or diminish it in one form or another to as if rewarding the criminal instead giving him what is due to him, that would be the biggest of mistakes that we can make or are already making.
Daniel 4:32 And they shall drive you from men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. They shall make you eat grass like oxen; and seven times shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He chooses.
By the way, the sentencing of Jesus was part of the divine plan. That may have been a mistake in our eyes but that mistake brought eternal life to many.
< Message edited by loloidong -- 7/14/2008 4:49:33 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 5:01:39 PM
|
|
|
Lapidoth
Posts: 3286
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
|
I'm an old "western movie buff."
The 'posse' catches up to a murderer.
They want to string him up in the field.
The "law" (marshall) says, No, if you string him up
you are guilty of murder yourselves. We're going to
take him back for trial. If he's found guilty, then we
hang him.
That's the difference in murder and justice.
Either way he's hanged. But stringing him up is murder.
Hanging after due process is justice.
The man who shot and killed the doctor outside his abortion
clinic a few years back was guilty of murder even though he professed
to be a Christian doing God's work.
The doctor indeed is committing murder, but the laws give him a pass.
He will be judged by God as a murderer according to His Laws.
If we can't see the difference in what constitutes murder or justice,
we're some pretty sick puppies.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 8:35:20 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
SovereignIsHe wrote: The same Christ Jesus who plainly told Pilate that his power to take life was came from above?
Does that make what Pilate does right?
For the thieves, yes... But not for Christ since Pilate said himself he couldn't find no wrong with him...
John
SovIsHe,
I'm not trying to conduct an argument here exactly, but it seems I can use what you are saying -- IF I am interpreting it correctly -- to illustrate that point that I have been mostly unsuccessfully trying to make.
But, first, let me ask, are you saying that Pilate is doing wrong as a person in authority precisely because THOUGH he could find no wrong with Jesus, he went ahead and proceeded with his sentencing NOT because it was lawful, but because it was the will of the CROWD. This was exactly what I was talking about. This, I say, could be a perfect illustration of when an authority cedes the respect he deserves by failing to rely on the duty with which his position is inscribed and instead looks from without for another criteria for his action: in this case, skipping ove rlaw in favor of the will of a mob. I say this type of behavior can also be observed in other persons in authority, such as Hitler and in less obvious ways by all communists, to name a couple of examples.
Thanks for your consideration.
Pilate knew that Jesus was innocent, yet he ordred his death... That was unlawful... And for the sake of how he was perceived by the mob was a big reason... Though in regards to the thieves put to death with Christ, they were justly dealt with... Pilates injustice regarding Christ didn't effect the just dealings with the two thieves...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 8:37:29 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ConstantReader
I'd rather err on the side of mercy than on the side of death. These days, many convictions have been overturned by new technology and DNA testing. One of the most shameful legacies of America is putting to death innocent people while allowing the guilty to remain free.
I must assume that all knowing God who ordained the civil government to be His minister of wrath for those who do evil would take into account that man isn't perfect when He ordained what He did...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 8:41:10 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: modu
The Holy Bible is a spiritual book open to all to read, even to devil and its agents. The power from the word of God is received by revelation and this is only through the Holy Spirit. You can read and memorize the whole Bible, but if you lack the interpretation by the Spirit of Christ, you would only end up having critical and legalistic views. We all learn constantly and every day from the leading of the Holy Spirit. I hope those who can hear, would get the message.
Capital punishment whatever excuse one color’s it is simply murder.
So... David murdered Golitath, Joshua murdered men, women, and children, and Moses murder thousands who didn't choose God...
If the interpretation by the Spirit of Christ says capital punishment whatever excuse one color’s it is simply murder God is a liar...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 8:47:35 PM
|
|
|
HisFish
Posts: 557
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ConstantReader
I'd rather err on the side of mercy than on the side of death. These days, many convictions have been overturned by new technology and DNA testing. One of the most shameful legacies of America is putting to death innocent people while allowing the guilty to remain free.
i looked all over for any evidence of someone having been put to death only to have been exonerated later on by DNA and couldent find that, so could you either back that up or withdraw the charge.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 9:02:21 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: draexo
Matthew 7
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Of course if one continues to read the verses in question speaks of not being a hypocrite when you judge... First remove the beam from your own eye before… Before what?
quote:
Luke 6
37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
As well in 1 Corinthians 5 says to remove a person who refuses to repent.. To do so requires what? Yep... A righteous judgment
So it would seem the verses you word searched don't support your view...
quote:
John 8
1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
Why was the woman brought to Christ? For the following? ( John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.) No... We are told why in Verse 6... To accuse Christ... As well... Where is the other party? More than likely in the group that brought her to Christ, and one of the first to grap a rock. There was no call for justice... The above isn't in regards to the death penalty, it was about injustice...
Matthew 15
1. Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2. Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3. But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4. For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6. And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7. Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8. This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Christ doesn't revoke the penalty for not honoring one's father and mother...
quote:
John 12
47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. 49For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.
The fact that the time of the cross isn't the time for final judgment has nothing to do with folks being judged for their actions and having to deal with the temporal consquences of their actions...
quote:
Can you tell me where it says in the NT to exercise capital punishment as a follower of Jesus?
Paul said he would submit to the capital punishment if he did something that deserved it...
God ordained the civil government to be His minister of wrath for those who do evil... There is nothing ungodly about the minister of God's wrath justly putting someone to death, for instance the theif who said he was justly receiving his due reward, death at the hand of God's ordained minister of wrath...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 9:26:45 PM
|
|
|
fiat_lux
Posts: 290
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
Status: offline
|
quote:
i looked all over for any evidence of someone having been put to death only to have been exonerated later on by DNA and couldent find that, so could you either back that up or withdraw the charge.
There have, however, been cases of people who were exonerated by such evidence after lengthy delays. It has been suggested in threads on this board that death penalties should properly be carried out swiftly so as to have maximum deterrent effect. At least according to such a view (which I realize you may not share), some innocent people would have been killed. Moreover there are a variety of cases in the U.S. where there are allegations, at least, that people were executed in the face of compelling evidence of innocence. Northwestern University provides some case summaries here:
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/wrongfulconvictions/issues/deathpenalty/executinginnocent/
Moreover, it is known that at least some executed prisoners in some Anglo-Saxon countries were falsely executed - this was why capital punishment in the UK was abolished in the 1950s, where a few of the last convictions have been posthumously overturned.
To suggest that the U.S. system - or any contemporary system, I suppose - is in some way uniquely perfect in deciding upon meting out death is, I would suggest, arrogant in the extreme.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 9:36:45 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
quote:
i looked all over for any evidence of someone having been put to death only to have been exonerated later on by DNA and couldent find that, so could you either back that up or withdraw the charge.
There have, however, been cases of people who were exonerated by such evidence after lengthy delays. It has been suggested in threads on this board that death penalties should properly be carried out swiftly so as to have maximum deterrent effect. At least according to such a view (which I realize you may not share), some innocent people would have been killed. Moreover there are a variety of cases in the U.S. where there are allegations, at least, that people were executed in the face of compelling evidence of innocence. Northwestern University provides some case summaries here:
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/wrongfulconvictions/issues/deathpenalty/executinginnocent/
Moreover, it is known that at least some executed prisoners in some Anglo-Saxon countries were falsely executed - this was why capital punishment in the UK was abolished in the 1950s, where a few of the last convictions have been posthumously overturned.
To suggest that the U.S. system - or any contemporary system, I suppose - is in some way uniquely perfect in deciding upon meting out death is, I would suggest, arrogant in the extreme.
Of course it doesn't really matter since God ordained the civil government to be HIS minister of wrath with the foreknowledge that man will never judge perfectly...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 9:43:41 PM
|
|
|
HisFish
Posts: 557
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
quote:
i looked all over for any evidence of someone having been put to death only to have been exonerated later on by DNA and couldent find that, so could you either back that up or withdraw the charge.
There have, however, been cases of people who were exonerated by such evidence after lengthy delays. It has been suggested in threads on this board that death penalties should properly be carried out swiftly so as to have maximum deterrent effect. At least according to such a view (which I realize you may not share), some innocent people would have been killed. Moreover there are a variety of cases in the U.S. where there are allegations, at least, that people were executed in the face of compelling evidence of innocence. Northwestern University provides some case summaries here:
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/wrongfulconvictions/issues/deathpenalty/executinginnocent/
Moreover, it is known that at least some executed prisoners in some Anglo-Saxon countries were falsely executed - this was why capital punishment in the UK was abolished in the 1950s, where a few of the last convictions have been posthumously overturned.
To suggest that the U.S. system - or any contemporary system, I suppose - is in some way uniquely perfect in deciding upon meting out death is, I would suggest, arrogant in the extreme.
Cite the evidence, anybody can say: quote:
Moreover, it is known that at least some executed prisoners in some Anglo-Saxon countries were falsely executed -
but without specifics it's just you saying it. Be that as it may, im not saying it hasn't happened, but the charge was made that is has been done in the past and none of us know's that for a fact which is why i found this statement: quote:
One of the most shameful legacies of America is putting to death innocent people while allowing the guilty to remain free.
just a little overwrought.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 9:56:11 PM
|
|
|
fiat_lux
Posts: 290
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
Status: offline
|
quote:
but without specifics it's just you saying it.
Fair enough. In the U.K.'s case, for example, the wrongful executions of Timothy Evans, George Kelly, and Mahmood Mattan in the 1950s were part of the reason that the death penalty was abolished. In these cases the convictions were overturned posthumously.
Historically and normally, there's not much in the way of a legal process for posthumous legal reviews, so there aren't very many people being legally recognized as innocent after their death.
quote:
Of course it doesn't really matter since God ordained the civil government to be HIS minister of wrath with the foreknowledge that man will never judge perfectly...
The fact that God permits the civil government considerable leeway does not really say that we can use that leeway in ways which might be unjust. Moreover, if we were to take the OT law - even though I would argue doesn't apply as our law today - as a case study in what God regards a proper judicial system, then most present systems fail to meet the criteria that law required for justice in capital punishment cases, like the requirements for multiple witnesses and equivalent penalties for perjury.
< Message edited by fiat_lux -- 7/14/2008 10:05:48 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 10:13:37 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
The fact that God permits the civil government considerable leeway
God doesn't simply permit... The civil government is HIS ordained minister of wrath...
quote:
does not really say that we can use that leeway in ways which might be unjust.
The system not being perfect doesn't equate it to being unjust...
quote:
Moreover, if we were to take the OT law - even though I would argue doesn't apply as our law today - as a case study in what God regards a proper judicial system, then most present systems fail to meet the criteria that law required for justice in capital punishment cases, like the requirements for multiple witnesses and equivalent penalties for perjury.
Given the burden of proof on the state I believe the criteria is pretty close...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 10:19:40 PM
|
|
|
draexo
Posts: 561
Joined: 1/26/2007
From: Saratoga County, New York
Status: offline
|
John.
I'm so glad you have it all figured out.
Someday on the other side we will find out who is right. By then it really won't matter much though, will it?
_____________________________
The truth will set you free!
TRUTH
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 10:21:34 PM
|
|
|
fiat_lux
Posts: 290
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Given the burden of proof on the state I believe the criteria is pretty close...
John
The OT law specifies that there must be multiple witnesses to the murder willing to testify in court, that there must be penalties of perjury equivalent to the punishment that would be given to the accused if they were convicted, and that the witnesses to the crime must initiate the process of execution.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/14/2008 10:23:02 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4508
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: draexo
John.
I'm so glad you have it all figured out.
Someday on the other side we will find out who is right. By then it really won't matter much though, will it?
I'd rather you actually support you argument here...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/15/2008 1:54:42 AM
|
|
|
doublecross
Posts: 121
Joined: 6/30/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ConstantReader
I'd rather err on the side of mercy than on the side of death. These days, many convictions have been overturned by new technology and DNA testing. One of the most shameful legacies of America is putting to death innocent people while allowing the guilty to remain free.
to err on the side of non-justice is against the will of God.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/15/2008 1:57:02 AM
|
|
|
doublecross
Posts: 121
Joined: 6/30/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
I'm an old "western movie buff."
The 'posse' catches up to a murderer.
They want to string him up in the field.
The "law" (marshall) says, No, if you string him up
you are guilty of murder yourselves. We're going to
take him back for trial. If he's found guilty, then we
hang him.
That's the difference in murder and justice.
Either way he's hanged. But stringing him up is murder.
Hanging after due process is justice.
The man who shot and killed the doctor outside his abortion
clinic a few years back was guilty of murder even though he professed
to be a Christian doing God's work.
The doctor indeed is committing murder, but the laws give him a pass.
He will be judged by God as a murderer according to His Laws.
If we can't see the difference in what constitutes murder or justice,
we're some pretty sick puppies.
They will be guilty of murder because the land has a judicial system that allows for a fair hearing of a case.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/15/2008 2:13:57 AM
|
|
|
McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
|
John,
There are governments in the world which don't apply the death penalty, right? What of those? Is God's ordained wrath-giver unjust in Canada but just in Saudi Arabia?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/15/2008 2:37:42 AM
|
|
|
doublecross
Posts: 121
Joined: 6/30/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
John,
There are governments in the world which don't apply the death penalty, right? What of those? Is God's ordained wrath-giver unjust in Canada but just in Saudi Arabia?
God is the ruler of the world. Good or evil he sets up every leader and government in the world. They are men not perfect beings. Governments are made of men not perfect beings. There will be mistakes small and great. But far be it that we call them a mistake that God has not establish even if they are not ruled righteously.
Psalm 75:7 “But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another.”
Daniel 4:35 “And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?”
Daniel 2:21 “And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings:…”
1 Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Isaiah 10:5 Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger And the staff in whose hand is My indignation. 24 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD of hosts: O My people, who dwell in Zion, do not be afraid of the Assyrian. He shall strike you with a rod and lift up his staff against you, in the manner of Egypt.
Isaiah 30:31 For through the voice of the LORD Assyria will be beaten down, As He strikes with the rod.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/15/2008 3:32:30 AM
|
|
|
McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
|
It's clear that God allows those in power to be in power. That's all over the Bible. It's also clear that those in power sometimes do unjust things and things that God doesn't want them to do. Read Judges through Chronicles!
The deal is that God allows whoever is in power in the US to obtain and remain in power. Does that mean I can't campaign to stop the death penalty or cast my vote for someone who wishes to end it? Not at all. The two have nothing to do with one another.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/15/2008 9:52:24 AM
|
|
|
hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
Status: offline
|
quote:
The Roman government was known for democracy but also for corruption and yet Paul recommends believers to obey the government even though it was also an imperfect one.
Very sensible. Also, this obviously God's will since Jesus went along with it rather than throwing himself down from the cross, crying "injustice."
However, the difference between Rome and the government of today is that ours is a more general representative democracy (as well as others') and that when we find that a member of the government is acting unlawfully, we ought to call this to public attention. Perhaps we will be obliged to carry out this apparently unlawful order, if it is part of our duty, or perhaps we ought to circumvent ostensible duty by proceeding "through proper channels" directly to our superior's superior. If we are a common citizen, perhaps we too must follow order for the near term, accepting that we can only proceed through propoer channels when the opportunity becomes available.
Therefore, my question is, does the government make claim to its authority and power to punish crimes capitally in a proper way, or does it seem to doubt its authority? I do not see a problem with the U.S. death penalty at the moment (correct that, aside from its apparent color-bias, based on likelihood of a black person coming before a judge and jury with charges parallel to a case with a white person, but death handed out more frequently based on no othe ridentifiable factor but ethnicity); however, I can point to other governments in history. If an SS officer was to come to my home and say, hand them over, I would have said, kill me if it is the will of the state, because it is not proper for you to ask for my complicity at this juncture. I say this because, you, the Nazi party, is not a respecter of law, and for you to demand my compliance with your version is ironic; instead, I must follow the law to MY own knowledge, given that the arbiters of it in the land have disappeared or have already been murdered. That would be to say, if you listen to the mob, then anarchy is actually the law of the land.
Jesus, I would say, was a respecter of "proper channels." He could see that Pilate was being sheepish -- good word! -- before the crowd and was thus not fulfilling his duty as an authority. However, he knew that the law in Rome was such that Pilate would have his own reckoning with proper authority. And, of course, if you want to talk about going to a higher authority, then we can always pray for the government to change its mind.
But what do we do when the SS comes knocking? That is my only real question. How can we reconcile being a respecter of authority and knowing when authority has ceased to make its natural claim? I am merely trying to explain this. That is, when can it be said that a government does indeed commit "murder"?
|
| | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
