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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/7/2008 9:28:08 PM
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p31woman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: VJDTropical
Wasn't it the Devil ( Lucifer ) that commited the first sin ?
This is something my DH and I were just discussing yesterday... I'd be interested to hear what others think.
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So don't let anyone pass judgment on you in connection with eating and drinking, or in regard to a Jewish festival or Rosh-Hodesh or Shabbat. These are a shadow of things that are coming, but the body is of the Messiah. Colossians 2:16-17
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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/8/2008 7:02:10 AM
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Machaira
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quote:
ORIGINAL: p31woman
quote:
ORIGINAL: VJDTropical
Wasn't it the Devil ( Lucifer ) that commited the first sin ?
This is something my DH and I were just discussing yesterday... I'd be interested to hear what others think.
Chronologically, the order of sin, if you will, would be Satan, the angels that followed him, Eve, then Adam.
_____________________________
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake . . . Php 1:29
Check out my blog @ www.thomasboston.wordpress.com
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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/8/2008 8:44:14 AM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: p31woman
quote:
ORIGINAL: VJDTropical
Wasn't it the Devil ( Lucifer ) that commited the first sin ?
This is something my DH and I were just discussing yesterday... I'd be interested to hear what others think.
I understood the question to mean "Of Adam and Eve, who sinned first?" I did not understand there to be any other candidates involved.
The problem I have with assigning "the first sin" to Satan, is really very simple. God is love. But God is also a God of antitheses. As He loves, so also He has a great capacity for hate. In order for God, who is only good, to express hate, there must be of necessity be evil. What is the source of evil? God created it. Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
The problem with aknowledging God as the creator of evil, is that most folks misunderstand the application of principle involved. It is much the same principle involved when God made man and gave him free will and "choice," knowing full well man would be capable of very great evil.
That does not make God responsible for the bad choices of men, nor does it make him responsible for the evil done by Satan. ALL evil is either a direct CONSEQUENCE of choices made, or is the RESULT of choices made; i.e., I choose to do evil, and do evil; or, I choose to do evil and evil happens to me.
NO MAN is made to sin by God. ALL men are free to choose. Even Pharoah, whose heart God hardened, could have made different choices, but for Pharoah to have made a different choice he would have first had to REPENT of the evil he intended to do God's people, and THAT he could not bring himself to do.
Most of us are so deep into ourselves, we hesitate to recognize sin when it is ours to reject. Only in others do we haste to see the obvious. That is why we must be constantly cognizant of our own motives and intents as we interact with others of God's image.
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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/8/2008 4:40:35 PM
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creationtalk
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quote:
And when Adam considered the possibilities of living in the garden with God but without Eve, I think he made a determination that he would share her fate rather than abandon her to her own feeble attempt at decision making.
Genesis says that Adam was present with Eve when she took the fruit and ate it. He did not choose to follow her "fate", as in she had already committed the transgression and there was nothing he could do, he could have stopped her in the beginning by correcting her misunderstanding of what God said.
I've always thought that Adam decided to use Eve as his taste tester...he wanted to taste the forbidden fruit, but didn't have the courage. So when the serpent deceived her, he let her take the first bite to see what would happen, when she didn't immediately drop dead he decided it was safe to eat the fruit too.
God told Eve that there were consequences to her actions, but God told Adam that the ground was cursed on account of him. Furthermore, the sin nature comes through the male seed--which is why Jesus had to be born of a woman.
quote:
There is no record of God telling Eve about the forbidden fruit prohibition. My surmise is that God told Adam and Adam was to tell Eve. We know she was able to quote God's instruction to Adam, so I will guess Adam told Eve about the issue.
It is correct that Eve got the word about the "forbidden fruit" second hand. However, she misquoted when she told it. She added to the scripture (something we all are prone to do) by including that the instruction forbade touching the fruit as well as eating it.
Eve committed the first violation of a known commandment of God (the instruction to not eat the fruit of that tree). So I suppose that would mean she committed the first sin. However, she committed that sin because her husband abdicated his role as her protector and shield in failing to separate her from the deceiver at the first hint of incorrectness.
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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/8/2008 4:54:56 PM
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theo_book
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quote:
(theo) And when Adam considered the possibilities of living in the garden with God but without Eve, I think he made a determination that he would share her fate rather than abandon her to her own feeble attempt at decision making.
(creationtalk) Genesis says that Adam was present with Eve when she took the fruit and ate it. He did not choose to follow her "fate", as in she had already committed the transgression and there was nothing he could do, he could have stopped her in the beginning by correcting her misunderstanding of what God said.
Well, only if Eve in fact misunderstood the instructions. It seems she understood them well enough to directly and correctly quote them to Satan.
quote:
(creationtalk) I've always thought that Adam decided to use Eve as his taste tester...he wanted to taste the forbidden fruit, but didn't have the courage. So when the serpent deceived her, he let her take the first bite to see what would happen, when she didn't immediately drop dead he decided it was safe to eat the fruit too.
(theo) No such charge is ever laid at Adam's feet. Remember, he had no experience upon which to fall back on. He was just as much in the dark as to what "ye shall surely die" meant as Eve was. While I agree with you it was very much a learning experience, I do not agree
Adam used Eve as his tester.
I do think they both realized immediately the enormity of their crime, and both knew the guilt of disobedience. I do not think they realized all the consequences of their deed. Some of them had yet to be developed.
quote:
(creationtalk) God told Eve that there were consequences to her actions, but God told Adam that the ground was cursed on account of him. Furthermore, the sin nature comes through the male seed--which is why Jesus had to be born of a woman.
Reference please?
quote:
(theo) There is no record of God telling Eve about the forbidden fruit prohibition. My surmise is that God told Adam and Adam was to tell Eve. We know she was able to quote God's instruction to Adam, so I will guess Adam told Eve about the issue.
(creationtalk) It is correct that Eve got the word about the "forbidden fruit" second hand. However, she misquoted when she told it. She added to the scripture (something we all are prone to do) by including that the instruction forbade touching the fruit as well as eating it.
(theo) Yes, but how do we know that did not come from her husband as an extra admonition as he repeated God's instructions to her?
quote:
(creationtalk) Eve committed the first violation of a known commandment of God (the instruction to not eat the fruit of that tree). So I suppose that would mean she committed the first sin. However, she committed that sin because her husband abdicated his role as her protector and shield in failing to separate her from the deceiver at the first hint of incorrectness.
I am not sure, but I am inclined to agree with your assessment. I would not be dogmatic without more study though.
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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/8/2008 7:03:19 PM
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creationtalk
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quote:
quote:
(creationtalk) God told Eve that there were consequences to her actions, but God told Adam that the ground was cursed on account of him. Furthermore, the sin nature comes through the male seed--which is why Jesus had to be born of a woman.
Reference please?
Gen 3:17 "To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'you must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you; ..."" (emphasis mine)
And for sin coming into the world through Adam: Rom 5:12-21 12 "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man[Adam], and death through sin,..." ... 19"For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of one man the many will be made righteous."
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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/8/2008 7:37:50 PM
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modu
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Hmm creationtalk,
You went to the core and brought out a great revelation, which is vital to giving the question its thorough answer according to the Holy Scripture.
Just to make it abundantly clear, the instruction God gave was directly to Adam and he was to ensure the instruction was followed up by Eve. That means, there was a direct covenant (agreement) between God and Adam, but Adam broke his part due to the lust of the flesh, of the eyes and pride of life. Yes, Eve acted wrong and sinned, but the question is for us to see it the way God saw it and that means, it was Adam that broke their covenant. When I give you authority over something, I may and would question others for breaking the agreement, but you that got the primary assignment would be held accountable. That means, because of the principle of accountability, you would necessarily start counting from the head and downward (responsible officer)
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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/8/2008 8:35:54 PM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
ORIGINAL: creationtalk
quote:
(creationtalk) God told Eve that there were consequences to her actions, but God told Adam that the ground was cursed on account of him. Furthermore, the sin nature comes through the male seed--which is why Jesus had to be born of a woman.
(theo)Reference please?
Gen 3:17 "To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'you must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you; ..."" (emphasis mine)
(theo) I guess I should have been more specific. My question had more to do with the origin of "sin nature" than Adam's part in the rebellion. But I think your response covers it.
I also think that Adam's sin, rather than just the eating of forbidden fruit, was similar to the young prophet of I Kings 13 who received a command from God, repeated the command several times, but when waylaid by an angel with different instructions, disobeyed the command from God and was killed for his disobedience.
Adam did substantially the same thing. He not only heard God's instruction, but evidently repeated it to Eve, possibly with embellishment, but certainly with understanding; then instead of "hearing" God's instruction when it came to reality, listened instead to his wife.
I guess the focus of both sets of circumstances is simply listen to what God says and do it.
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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/8/2008 8:44:54 PM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: modu
Hmm creationtalk,
You went to the core and brought out a great revelation, which is vital to giving the question its thorough answer according to the Holy Scripture.
Just to make it abundantly clear, the instruction God gave was directly to Adam and he was to ensure the instruction was followed up by Eve. That means, there was a direct covenant (agreement) between God and Adam, but Adam broke his part due to the lust of the flesh, of the eyes and pride of life. Yes, Eve acted wrong and sinned, but the question is for us to see it the way God saw it and that means, it was Adam that broke their covenant. When I give you authority over something, I may and would question others for breaking the agreement, but you that got the primary assignment would be held accountable. That means, because of the principle of accountability, you would necessarily start counting from the head and downward (responsible officer)
Modu, I agree with your perspective but have a question. Did not God's covenant with Adam include Eve?
Remember also Paul's statement that "through one man Adam, and death through sin" could well reference Gen 1:27 " 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." So according to Genesis, the "man" created by God included both the male, and the female from the same body of flesh;
Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
And Paul said that Eve "sinned, being in the transgression," So isn't it likely God's first covenant was with the first man, Adam and Eve?
What say ye?
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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/9/2008 12:05:46 AM
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Shumby
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15And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to KEEP it.
I looked up "keep" in the concordance [8104] and it says: to hedge about (as with thorns) i.e.GUARD; gen. to protect, attend (to), etc.: - beward, be circumspect, take heed (to self); keep.
Sounds to me as though Adam was instructed to GUARD the garden, hedge it about, thus keeping out all enemies, including satan, the devil. And this he did not do. Must've let down his guard, huh? Therefore, I believe that Adam committed the first sin.
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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/9/2008 7:27:48 AM
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creationtalk
Posts: 588
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quote:
Did not God's covenant with Adam include Eve?
Remember also Paul's statement that "through one man Adam, and death through sin" could well reference Gen 1:27 " 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." So according to Genesis, the "man" created by God included both the male, and the female from the same body of flesh;
Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
And Paul said that Eve "sinned, being in the transgression," So isn't it likely God's first covenant was with the first man, Adam and Eve?
When "Man" is included with an name, I do not believe that you could use it as the generic "man" meaning humankind. If you choose to interpret the "one man Adam" as humankind--ie Adam and Eve, then it becomes much harder to draw the parallel with Jesus. "...sin entered the world through one man" then "through...one man the many will be made righteous." See, now you've got a problem. If the first "one man" was more than one person, then who is to say that the second "one man" is not more than one person? How then can we argue that Jesus is the only way to God and righteousness?
Gen 1 is an overview of the creation. Gen 2 goes more in depth in the details of the creation and instructions given to man. Adam is created first, God gives him dominion over the earth and the instructions about what he should do and could not do. It was later when Adam could not find a mate suitable for him that Eve was created (formed out of man). She was part of man but was separate and did not receive the instructions directly from God. She may be included in the covenant, but she was not the one given the directives and responsibility of upholding it.
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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/9/2008 7:37:20 AM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Shumby
15And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to KEEP it.
I looked up "keep" in the concordance [8104] and it says: to hedge about (as with thorns) i.e.GUARD; gen. to protect, attend (to), etc.: - beward, be circumspect, take heed (to self); keep.
Sounds to me as though Adam was instructed to GUARD the garden, hedge it about, thus keeping out all enemies, including satan, the devil. And this he did not do. Must've let down his guard, huh? Therefore, I believe that Adam committed the first sin.
Hmmm!!! I don't think so. Where do you think Adam was going to get thorns? They did not exist until after the first couple were expelled from the garden.
And how do you suppose Adam was to learn who Satan was if God did not introduce them? No record of THAT happening.
I Tim 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
It seems almost as though the first sin was in being deceived rather than being disobedient.
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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/9/2008 7:54:59 PM
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ManimalX
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theo: Your post about being off-topic is off-topic.
Sorry, couldn't resist ;)
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"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/9/2008 8:06:16 PM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
theo: Your post about being off-topic is off-topic.
Sorry, couldn't resist ;)
I think you have had too much "topicyoca" pudding
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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/10/2008 12:24:47 AM
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CrimsonMoon
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The biblical answer is Adam.
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. Rom 5:12, 17
(And by the way, Eve didn't add to God's word, Adam did)
1 -- God made Adam
2 -- God made a garden for Adam, including the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil
3-- God TOLD Adam not to eat from the tree
4-- God made woman
Apparently, when Adam told Eve that a particular tree was forbidden, he added to God's word and told her that even if she touched it, she would die.
The serpent decieved her, and she ate and gave to her husband "who was with her" (Gen 3:6). He stood right there, not decieved, and when she did not die immediately as he assumed she would, he himself ate, and he brought sin and death into the world.
_____________________________
"Be ready always to give a defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope within you" -- Rabbi Cephus, 63 AD
My Blog: Nightmares and Dreamscapes
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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/10/2008 7:18:27 AM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CrimsonMoon
The biblical answer is Adam.
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. Rom 5:12, 17
(And by the way, Eve didn't add to God's word, Adam did)
1 -- God made Adam
2 -- God made a garden for Adam, including the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil
3-- God TOLD Adam not to eat from the tree
4-- God made woman
Apparently, when Adam told Eve that a particular tree was forbidden, he added to God's word and told her that even if she touched it, she would die.
The serpent decieved her, and she ate and gave to her husband "who was with her" (Gen 3:6). He stood right there, not decieved, and when she did not die immediately as he assumed she would, he himself ate, and he brought sin and death into the world.
I agree with your analysis, but it remains scripture that Eve was "in the transgression, being deceived."
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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/10/2008 10:54:19 AM
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CrimsonMoon
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In context: For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and Adam was not beguiled, but the woman being beguiled hath fallen into transgression: but she shall be saved through her child-bearing, if they continue in faith and love and sanctification with sobriety. (1 Timothy 3:13-15 NASB)
This "trasngression" that Eve committed, she can be saved from through childbearing. Having a child does not save a woman from thier sins, not can her children living in faith a love with sobreity save her from her sins.
Adam was not beguiled, ie. Adam was not tricked -- he knowingly disobeyed.
This passage has to do with a woman's role in the church. It has nothing to do with who sinned first. The Bible is very clear that Adam brought sin and death into the world. Not only is Adam named, but it does not even say Adam and Eve, let only Eve brought sin into the world. It says By ONE man, sin entered into the world. Not two humans.
Someone mentioned what is the point to such a question. I will give you one. Dan Brown (and many others) accuse the Church / Christianity of being male-dominated, woman-hating bigots who follow the same type of God. In my opinion, setting the record straight with Eve, and pointing out that God held the man accountable, not the woman, may help to open up some about Christianity and allow them to see the true character of God, who made male and female equal and who both, together, make up the image of God.
< Message edited by CrimsonMoon -- 7/10/2008 11:01:17 AM >
_____________________________
"Be ready always to give a defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope within you" -- Rabbi Cephus, 63 AD
My Blog: Nightmares and Dreamscapes
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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/10/2008 2:21:51 PM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CrimsonMoon
In context: For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and Adam was not beguiled, but the woman being beguiled hath fallen into transgression: but she shall be saved through her child-bearing, if they continue in faith and love and sanctification with sobriety. (1 Timothy 3:13-15 NASB)
This "trasngression" that Eve committed, she can be saved from through childbearing. Having a child does not save a woman from thier sins, not can her children living in faith a love with sobreity save her from her sins.
Of course childbearing will save women. It was through childbearing that the generations brought humanity to Mary's generation, through whom Messiah was born. THAT is the "salvation through childearing" scripture is referencing. Messiah brought about the salvation from sins for the whole world and all generations.
quote:
Adam was not beguiled, ie. Adam was not tricked -- he knowingly disobeyed.
This passage has to do with a woman's role in the church. It has nothing to do with who sinned first. The Bible is very clear that Adam brought sin and death into the world. Not only is Adam named, but it does not even say Adam and Eve, let only Eve brought sin into the world. It says By ONE man, sin entered into the world. Not two humans.
Someone mentioned what is the point to such a question. I will give you one. Dan Brown (and many others) accuse the Church / Christianity of being male-dominated, woman-hating bigots who follow the same type of God. In my opinion, setting the record straight with Eve, and pointing out that God held the man accountable, not the woman, may help to open up some about Christianity and allow them to see the true character of God, who made male and female equal and who both, together, make up the image of God.
"Not holding the woman accountable" directly contradicts what Paul has just pointed out in the reference material.
"Eve was beguiled, BEING IN THE TRANSGRESSION" WAS THE REASON GIVEN FOR HER TO KEEP SILENCE IN THE CHURCHES. And was the reason she was to ask her husban at home. It has nothing to do with woman hating bigots in the church. It has to do with the Holy Spirit inspiring men to write what is to be.
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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/10/2008 3:39:54 PM
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ta_mosquito
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quote:
Of course childbearing will save women. It was through childbearing that the generations brought humanity to Mary's generation, through whom Messiah was born. THAT is the "salvation through childearing" scripture is referencing. Messiah brought about the salvation from sins for the whole world and all generations.
Why is it future tense, though? "The woman WILL BE saved through childbearing" when Jesus' birth was in the past at that point?
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Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open minded and being empty headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: Who committed the first sin, Adam or Eve? - 7/10/2008 4:17:48 PM
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