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Humans are Apes???? - 7/7/2008 1:45:04 PM
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PromiseLander
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Genesis 1: 26-28
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
How does the Bible believing Christian who calls themself an evolutionist explain how this passage in Scripture can square up with the view that humans are apes?
A few implications:
1) Since God created man in His image, does that mean that God was an ape?
2) Since God created man in His image, does that mean that God evolved from a lower life form?
3) Since God created man to have dominion over the fish, birds, cattle, earth, ect... and if humans evolved from apes, did apes in their first form have dominion over all these things?
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/7/2008 4:10:20 PM
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PromiseLander
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No takers? I figured this one would stir up a lot of debate.
It does bring it down to the heart of the matter though doesn't it? Either man evolved and God is a liar, or man was created in his present state, and evolution is a lie.
How is it so black and white? Because a Bible believing Christian cannot say that God evolved, or changed... And to say that "God created man in his own image" and at the same time "humans are apes" is to say that very thing. God's Word tells us that "I am God, and I change not."
The "Christian Evolutionist" has some mighty big hurdles to mount if he is to seriously support his claims as authentic.
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/7/2008 4:20:35 PM
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drj11
Posts: 632
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Genesis 1: 26-28
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
How does the Bible believing Christian who calls themself an evolutionist explain how this passage in Scripture can square up with the view that humans are apes?
A few implications:
1) Since God created man in His image, does that mean that God was an ape?
2) Since God created man in His image, does that mean that God evolved from a lower life form?
3) Since God created man to have dominion over the fish, birds, cattle, earth, ect... and if humans evolved from apes, did apes in their first form have dominion over all these things?
Only if you take 'image' to mean 'physical likeness'. Most Christians don't take it that way. What does a being need arms and legs for if he is all powerful not subject to forces external to him?
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/7/2008 4:34:43 PM
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PromiseLander
Posts: 358
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drj11
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Genesis 1: 26-28
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
How does the Bible believing Christian who calls themself an evolutionist explain how this passage in Scripture can square up with the view that humans are apes?
A few implications:
1) Since God created man in His image, does that mean that God was an ape?
2) Since God created man in His image, does that mean that God evolved from a lower life form?
3) Since God created man to have dominion over the fish, birds, cattle, earth, ect... and if humans evolved from apes, did apes in their first form have dominion over all these things?
Only if you take 'image' to mean 'physical likeness'. Most Christians don't take it that way. What does a being need arms and legs for if he is all powerful not subject to forces external to him?
So, now you're creating an even larger hurdle to jump. If God did not imply physical appearance and was instead implying His nature, are you saying that God used to be primative? Evolutionists state that the first apes were very primative, then progressed - now you're saying that God must have began primative, then progressed...
Incidentally, you say that "most Christians don't take it that way" what source are you pulling this from? When was this study taken place, who conducted this study, how many people were polled, and from what denominations of true Bible believing people was this study conducted?
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/7/2008 4:38:26 PM
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PromiseLander
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Incidentally, the prophets describe visions of the likeness of God as having "human" form - His hair, eyes, skin, hands, feet, are all described... Not that God is being seen in the likeness of man, but that man can be seen in the likeness of God - just like Genesis tells us.
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/7/2008 4:49:20 PM
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hellohellohi
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Hello,
I hope you will appreciate how I respond, because I probably should say I don't have ready answers, but I am interested to talk about it!
I wouldn't like to say that God has evolved. However, it does appear to me that humans have!
I do think it is quite plausible that pre- or near-humans walked the earth without being what we would call human.
Strange to say, I believe evolutionary considerations MAY lead to ideas that are consistent with the idea of an Adam, Eve, and a Fall. Eve is already spoken of by scientist -- and I don't mean to misrepresent them, but they do suggest that a single mother (or very few?) may have accounted for the earth's population. A bottleneck of human population is also interestingly supposed.
Leaving that aside, the only new thing I have to add at the moment is that perhaps humans can be characterized as distinct from other animals in their ability for self-deception.
I will also suggest at this time that God did indeed raise men out of clay (and, yes, I will have to consider "one day" as poetry) and that the crucial moment of this creation, when clay became man, was when God spoke to it, and named it Adam.
I believe the naming of the individual who was built with the ability to self-deceive (i.e.: deny his nature, which you suggest was in the image of God) would have caused a crisis, which, by Adam's choice, resulted in the Fall, the sin of the first man. Now, how is it that God made us in his image and also with the ability to self-deceive? Rather, I would say, he spoke to Adam and gave him the clay sufficiency, just as God possesses, knowing also that the clay would REFUSE this grace, which is sin.
So, basically, I am more interested in the linguistic origins of people than the physical.
I agree we came from clay. I just don't think "one day" meant the sun rose and set during that period. I just think it is the type of measurement that God wanted to suggest -- and it set up the sabbath, which is a gift to us. God was showing us the importance of time for our purposes -- and part of this is not, for instance, working six YEARS straight, then taking a year to rest.
That's my feeling and contention anyway.
I look forward to discussing it more.
Thanks
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/7/2008 5:06:40 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Genesis 1: 26-28
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
How does the Bible believing Christian who calls themself an evolutionist explain how this passage in Scripture can square up with the view that humans are apes?
A few implications:
1) Since God created man in His image, does that mean that God was an ape?
No, since God is pure Spirit, the image of God is purely spiritual and cannot be identified with any physical form.
quote:
2) Since God created man in His image, does that mean that God evolved from a lower life form?
No, since God is One, and individuals do not evolve, God did not evolve. (Populations evolve, not individuals). Furthermore, evolution requires reproduction, mutation and selection--all of which require a material basis. God, as Spirit, presumably has no genes to be replicated, does not change and therefore provides no variation to select.
quote:
3) Since God created man to have dominion over the fish, birds, cattle, earth, ect... and if humans evolved from apes, did apes in their first form have dominion over all these things?
Apes in their first human form would indeed have dominion over all these things.
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/7/2008 5:18:59 PM
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swan42
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quote:
Either man evolved and God is a liar, or man was created in his present state, and evolution is a lie.
False dichotomy, because I can easily add more choices supported by all currently known facts.
Man was created in his present state and God is a liar by leaving strong evidence evolution occurred.
Man was created in his present state by an extra-terrestrial, non-theological event.
Man evolved after seeding the planet by extra-terrestrial, non-theological event.
Man evolved and God does not exist to be a liar in the first place.
< Message edited by swan42 -- 7/7/2008 5:33:14 PM >
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/7/2008 9:26:04 PM
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PromiseLander
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Nope. Evolution and Genesis 1:26-28 are still at odds.
If God created man in His own image, and if evolution is true, then either God was a lower life form (physical likeness) or that God's nature was not as developed at first - primative... (Both blasphemy)
Evolutionists who say that there is strong evidence for their case are only delusioned... Seriously... They start with the idea that things evolved so they dig up something that seems to point to their cause and they claim it's proof. It boils down to this: If you believe God, there is no room for evolution.
If you still think that man evolved, I don't want to hear about so called "evidences," I want you to describe to me how it can jive with Genesis 1: 26-28.
Image: "Selem" (Hebrew)- Image - usially referring to an object of worship
Likeness: "Demut" (Hebrew) - Likeness, Image, Form, Figure
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/7/2008 9:48:02 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Genesis 1: 26-28
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
How does the Bible believing Christian who calls themself an evolutionist explain how this passage in Scripture can square up with the view that humans are apes?
A few implications:
1) Since God created man in His image, does that mean that God was an ape?
2) Since God created man in His image, does that mean that God evolved from a lower life form?
3) Since God created man to have dominion over the fish, birds, cattle, earth, ect... and if humans evolved from apes, did apes in their first form have dominion over all these things?
Because they were brainwashed since children to believe they are animals. Maybe that's why this generation in particular acts like animals.
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/7/2008 10:10:00 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
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PromiseLander,
I don't know if you saw my post above.
An interesting biographical note: I was personally interested in human origins before I became even interested much in Christianity. So, chronologically, for me, I found ways in which Christianity agreed with things I had already thought about concerning human origins. Now, my approach may be different, but I have thoughts on the matter. If you had an earnest question, I am earnest in my intent to think about it.
This is to say, I think I have some answers for you. Perhaps you can re-read my post and consider how they strike you.
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/7/2008 10:16:59 PM
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drj11
Posts: 632
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Nope. Evolution and Genesis 1:26-28 are still at odds.
If God created man in His own image, and if evolution is true, then either God was a lower life form (physical likeness) or that God's nature was not as developed at first - primative... (Both blasphemy)
You are making a caricature out of the careful work of many theologians and scientists who have been able to reconcile the Bible and evolution.
Does God have the body of an infant? Or perhaps He is like a newly fertilized egg, nothing more than a couple cells you or I could count on two hands? Or perhaps He is an old man with organs shutting down on his deathbed? You talk about man's image as if there is such a thing. Take a snapshot of a man at different parts of his life and each will be different. Which image is it?
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 12:18:23 AM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
Joined: 4/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Nope. Evolution and Genesis 1:26-28 are still at odds.
If God created man in His own image, and if evolution is true, then either God was a lower life form (physical likeness) or that God's nature was not as developed at first - primative... (Both blasphemy)
Evolutionists who say that there is strong evidence for their case are only delusioned... Seriously... They start with the idea that things evolved so they dig up something that seems to point to their cause and they claim it's proof. It boils down to this: If you believe God, there is no room for evolution.
If you still think that man evolved, I don't want to hear about so called "evidences," I want you to describe to me how it can jive with Genesis 1: 26-28.
Image: "Selem" (Hebrew)- Image - usially referring to an object of worship
Likeness: "Demut" (Hebrew) - Likeness, Image, Form, Figure
Apparently you skipped over post #7
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 12:32:17 AM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 290
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
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quote:
Nope. Evolution and Genesis 1:26-28 are still at odds.
If God created man in His own image, and if evolution is true, then either God was a lower life form (physical likeness) or that God's nature was not as developed at first - primative... (Both blasphemy)
Evolutionists who say that there is strong evidence for their case are only delusioned... Seriously... They start with the idea that things evolved so they dig up something that seems to point to their cause and they claim it's proof. It boils down to this: If you believe God, there is no room for evolution.
If you still think that man evolved, I don't want to hear about so called "evidences," I want you to describe to me how it can jive with Genesis 1: 26-28.
Image: "Selem" (Hebrew)- Image - usially referring to an object of worship
Likeness: "Demut" (Hebrew) - Likeness, Image, Form, Figure
You first. Explain to me what reproductive organs God has, specifically in light of Gen. 1:27. Obviously the lesson of this passage is theological; it is not attempting to be a literal teaching that God resembles human beings in every physical way. If I were to take this argument to its logical conclusion, I could draw all sorts of bizarre conclusions. However, I'll stop at just one point: if we take a completely literal, traditional reading of Genesis 2, then human beings were created out of the dust of the Earth, at which point God blew into them the breath of life. Now, according to your argument, Genesis 2 is actually blasphemous, because it implies that humans and therefore God arose not just from lower life forms but from dirt.
Yet clearly Genesis 2 is not blasphemous. It is the word of God; it could not be blasphemous.
Furthermore, in answer to your challenge:
It is perfectly easy to take 1:26-28 and combine it with evolution. For example, one could state that, theologically, the "man" created by God was Homo sapiens sapiens; the evolutionary process up to that point was the means of creation, after which God arrived at the finished product, the human being, which he intended to be made in his own image.
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 8:25:55 AM
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PromiseLander
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The issue will always go back to this: Do you believe God's Word, or do you believe man's wisdom?
Because you see, no matter how many so called evidences for evolution that you bring up, you just can't contort the Word of God to a point where it supports it.
"Well, do you only believe the written word, or do you believe the written word and the story God left for us in creation?" Says the evolutionist... Well of course there are evidences of God's handiwork all around us - the fact that there is anything at all points to God's existence, but you still cannot take these evidences and attempt to mesh them with ideas that are found to be in complete contradiction to the teachings of God's Word.
When an "evidence" does not square with the clear doctrines of the Bible, then you must ask yourself "Is it my eyes, or God's Word that is failing?"
"Well, God could have used evolution to..." No. No He didn't. The Bible is clear that God "Created." And "Create" and "Evolve" are two incompatible ideas. Any attempt to ratify that is to say "Well God did not really mean..." and to say that is to place yourself in danger of hellfire.
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 9:04:55 AM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
The issue will always go back to this: Do you believe God's Word, or do you believe man's wisdom?
No, that's not the issue.
The issue is whether you will believe the evidence of God's world as interpreted by science or whether you will believe one particular interpretation of the scriptures inspired by God.
Human wisdom is involved whether we are looking at what God created or looking at what God inspired. So it is never a matter of pitting human wisdom against what God has given us, but rather one claim of human wisdom (science based on creation) against a different claim of human wisdom (the reading of certain scriptures as science rather than as a different genre of literature.)
When one treats the creation accounts as if they were science, they cannot be reconciled with creation itself as it has been unfolded to us by science. Yet creation is God-given just as much as scripture. God does not lie in God's works of creation any more than in the text of scripture.
So, we should not be so arrogant and haughty as to think that scripture must be treated as science. Is science the only legitimator of truth? Can God convey truth only in accounts that are scientific in nature? Clearly not. So we need to take ourselves back to the text, and see what sort of text this really is.
quote:
The Bible is clear that God "Created." And "Create" and "Evolve" are two incompatible ideas.
No, they are not incompatible ideas. They only become incompatible when one insists that the creation accounts have scientific validity. And it is not necessary to insist on that.
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 9:39:37 AM
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PromiseLander
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quote:
No, that's not the issue.
The issue is whether you will believe the evidence of God's world as interpreted by science or whether you will believe one particular interpretation of the scriptures inspired by God.
OK then, how do YOU interpret: "In the beginning, God created..." (emphasis added)
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 9:42:15 AM
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PromiseLander
Posts: 358
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quote:
The Bible is clear that God "Created." And "Create" and "Evolve" are two incompatible ideas.
quote:
No, they are not incompatible ideas. They only become incompatible when one insists that the creation accounts have scientific validity. And it is not necessary to insist on that.
Groovy... So you're saying the Bible is wrong about something. Cool, where do you stop with that notion? According to you, what else could be wrong in the Bible, Gluadys?
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 9:46:41 AM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
Joined: 4/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
quote:
The Bible is clear that God "Created." And "Create" and "Evolve" are two incompatible ideas.
quote:
No, they are not incompatible ideas. They only become incompatible when one insists that the creation accounts have scientific validity. And it is not necessary to insist on that.
Groovy... So you're saying the Bible is wrong about something. Cool, where do you stop with that notion? According to you, what else could be wrong in the Bible, Gluadys?
No, I am not saying the bible is wrong. I am saying that the bible is not scientific and it is wrong to interpret the bible as if it had to be scientifically accurate.
It is an interpretation that is wrong, not the bible itself.
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 9:49:52 AM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
quote:
No, that's not the issue.
The issue is whether you will believe the evidence of God's world as interpreted by science or whether you will believe one particular interpretation of the scriptures inspired by God.
OK then, how do YOU interpret: "In the beginning, God created..." (emphasis added)
I interpret it theologically. I do not assume that "created" means "did not evolve". Observation of created nature tells us that living things were made to evolve. So when God created them in the beginning they began to evolve as God created them to do.
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 9:54:00 AM
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Carico
Posts: 531
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
quote:
The Bible is clear that God "Created." And "Create" and "Evolve" are two incompatible ideas.
quote:
No, they are not incompatible ideas. They only become incompatible when one insists that the creation accounts have scientific validity. And it is not necessary to insist on that.
Groovy... So you're saying the Bible is wrong about something. Cool, where do you stop with that notion? According to you, what else could be wrong in the Bible, Gluadys?
No, I am not saying the bible is wrong. I am saying that the bible is not scientific and it is wrong to interpret the bible as if it had to be scientifically accurate.
It is an interpretation that is wrong, not the bible itself.
So what's unscientific about the sun giving light by day, the moon and stars giving light by night and used to mark the months, seasons and years? Does that not happen in reality? What's unscientific about each animal breeding its own kind? Is that not the way reality works? So either science is actually science fiction or scientists live in the twilight zone. 
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 9:54:06 AM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
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Evolution states that humans share a common ancestor with apes. Not that we come from apes. We do share 95% of our DNA with the great apes.
Some Christians believe in some evolutionary theories because of the extensive research and evidence presented, and the fact that the Bible is not a science book.
God is perfectly capable of creating the Earth and everything in it any way He chose to do so, including using some evolutionary processes. Adam and Eve may not have been modern humans, but that does not mean that they did not exist.
Since we have no idea how long days were at that time, creation could have been less than instantaneous.
_____________________________
I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 9:54:16 AM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 290
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
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quote:
The issue will always go back to this: Do you believe God's Word, or do you believe man's wisdom?
Unfortunately, it is not that simple. Everything is distorted at least to some extent by what you call "man's wisdom." At the very least, we have to interpret the Bible. Part of that interpretation has to fit with what we understand to be true about the world.
quote:
When an "evidence" does not square with the clear doctrines of the Bible, then you must ask yourself "Is it my eyes, or God's Word that is failing?"
Indeed. I could also ask, "Is my understanding of God's Word incorrect?"
It is possible, I admit, that there are Christians who accept the theory of evolution and see this as some way to somehow challenge God's word. I admit that such people may exist. But the vast majority of us are trying to understand God's work just as you are. However, your interpretation of Scripture on this case doesn't match with what I see in the world around us.
quote:
to say that is to place yourself in danger of hellfire.
Thank you for your warning, but I think it is quite misplaced. This is hardly an issue on which salvation will be decided.
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