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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 10:18:27 AM
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PromiseLander
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quote:
to say that is to place yourself in danger of hellfire.
Thank you for your warning, but I think it is quite misplaced. This is hardly an issue on which salvation will be decided.
The issue at heart is the very nature of God - whether He would deliberately tell us that He did something one way (Creation) but leave evidences to the contrary ("evolution")... If He would, then He is being deceptive, therefore He is not God.
Where science is spoken of in the Scriptures, it is accurate. Where history is spoken of in Scripture, it is accurate. Where geneology is spoken of in Scripture, it is accurate. When doctrine is spoken of in Scripture, it is accurate.
There is no personal manner of interpretation to the Bible. You wouldn't do that to secular laws, and it doesn't work with God's law either. Read the Bible literally according to the rules of grammar and literary devices used and in its historical context.
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 10:20:36 AM
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PromiseLander
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What is scientific about the earth existing before the sun? About day and night existing before the sun? About all the stars coming into existence at one moment contemporaneously with the sun? About starlight reaching earth from the distant places of the universe instantaneously?
Nothing is "scientific" about it because it's not observable or repeatable, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen that way - you just have a problem with God's Word, that's all.
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 10:25:14 AM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
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From: North Carolina!
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quote:
btw, evolution does not disagree that organisms (all organisms, not just animals) reproduce their own species. In fact, it is fundamental to the ToE that they do.
Of course, how does one define species? One might consider two organisms' "ability or inclination to reproduce" to be one of the most important criteria. However, it does sometimes happen that an offspring may result from mutation that is unable to reproduce with other members of its parents species. Usually, these are infertile, but sometimes, perhaps, they would not be. Rarely, co-occurrence of such mutation COULD happen, providing the also unlikely possibility that such an organism would reproduce with others of like kind. What do you think?
Edit: This may have happened with relatives of wheat, I believe. It is worth looking into. However, it might also have been that wheat was artificially selected.
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 10:25:15 AM
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drj11
Posts: 632
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ORIGINAL: Carico
So what's unscientific about the sun giving light by day, the moon and stars giving light by night and used to mark the months, seasons and years? Does that not happen in reality? What's unscientific about each animal breeding its own kind? Is that not the way reality works? So either science is actually science fiction or scientists live in the twilight zone. 
One has to wonder why god explained to us that the sun shines during the day? The text might as well have said "and he made water wet, and it was good". If one of the purposes of the Bible was to teach scientific knowledge, one has to wonder why God left out all the useful stuff... like perhaps some basic medical treatments.
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 10:25:55 AM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
The issue at heart is the very nature of God - whether He would deliberately tell us that He did something one way (Creation) but leave evidences to the contrary ("evolution")... If He would, then He is being deceptive, therefore He is not God.
However, it is men, not God, who have decided to interpret "creation" to exclude evolution. Hence it is not God who is being deceptive to leave evidence of evolution throughout creation.
Nor is it God who is being deceptive to reveal himself as Creator and nature as the work of his hands.
It is rather human teachers who would divide the one truth from the other that are the practitioners of deceit.
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 10:36:22 AM
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drj11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
The issue at heart is the very nature of God - whether He would deliberately tell us that He did something one way (Creation) but leave evidences to the contrary ("evolution")... If He would, then He is being deceptive, therefore He is not God.
The issue is literalists refusing to acknowledge their interpretation of God's word may be in error. Your interpretation of His word is the one thing in human existence that is without fault and an example of complete perfection? That is what you are saying.
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Where science is spoken of in the Scriptures, it is accurate.
Possibly, but there is no science spoken of in Genesis... in either of the two origin myths that were glued together to make Genesis.
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Where history is spoken of in Scripture, it is accurate. Where geneology is spoken of in Scripture, it is accurate. When doctrine is spoken of in Scripture, it is accurate.
There is no way to corroborate most of it. You say it is true because scripture is inerrant, and that scripture is inerrant because these things are true. That is not sound reasoning. Also, lets not forget, present day scripture was cherry picked from a much bigger collection of writings, which all claimed 'scripture' or prophetic status. Those assembling scripture had hindsight to throw out all the texts that were inaccurate.
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There is no personal manner of interpretation to the Bible. You wouldn't do that to secular laws, and it doesn't work with God's law either.
Judges wouldnt exist if there was no need for secular law to be interpreted and deciphered. We have had to create a whole legal language that is barely readable to a lay person in order to make up for the lack of precision that is characteristic of words. Even still, trained professionals can have difficulty deciphering the intent of such carefully crafted language.
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Read the Bible literally according to the rules of grammar and literary devices used and in its historical context.
I went to the store yesterday. (I actually didn't, but that read like a historical account did it not?)
< Message edited by drj11 -- 7/8/2008 10:44:13 AM >
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 10:40:54 AM
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PromiseLander
Posts: 358
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
The issue at heart is the very nature of God - whether He would deliberately tell us that He did something one way (Creation) but leave evidences to the contrary ("evolution")... If He would, then He is being deceptive, therefore He is not God.
However, it is men, not God, who have decided to interpret "creation" to exclude evolution. Hence it is not God who is being deceptive to leave evidence of evolution throughout creation.
Nor is it God who is being deceptive to reveal himself as Creator and nature as the work of his hands.
It is rather human teachers who would divide the one truth from the other that are the practitioners of deceit.
No, you're still trying to shove evolution into Scripture... Do you even realize how many times that creation in genesis is referenced throughout the entire Bible? Creation is one of the great doctrines of the Bible - you're attempting to topple Biblical doctrine that does in fact define part of who God is and reveals insight into His nature...
I submit to you that man (meaning Bible believing Christians) have ALWAYS understood that everything came to be by act of special and intentional creation. Evolution is only a VERY recent idea that has been thrust into the mix in an effort to define existence with God as the great watchmaker who builds this contraption and then watches it work...
IF "evolution" were true, then it, along with creation, would define part of the nature of God, and would have been big enough to be mentioned - show me "evolution" in God's Word.
Better yet, respond to the original challenge - show me how evolution meshes with Genesis 1: 26-28.
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 10:45:46 AM
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PromiseLander
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drj11:
Your entire post is typical atheist jargon that reveals an extremely unstudied view on the nature of the Bible, it's revelation, and it's origins. I'm sure you're a very intelligent person, why don't you investigate the claims of the Bible without taking other people's word for it, and find out for yourself if it is true?
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 10:52:19 AM
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drj11
Posts: 632
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
The issue at heart is the very nature of God - whether He would deliberately tell us that He did something one way (Creation) but leave evidences to the contrary ("evolution")... If He would, then He is being deceptive, therefore He is not God.
However, it is men, not God, who have decided to interpret "creation" to exclude evolution. Hence it is not God who is being deceptive to leave evidence of evolution throughout creation.
Nor is it God who is being deceptive to reveal himself as Creator and nature as the work of his hands.
It is rather human teachers who would divide the one truth from the other that are the practitioners of deceit.
No, you're still trying to shove evolution into Scripture... Do you even realize how many times that creation in genesis is referenced throughout the entire Bible? Creation is one of the great doctrines of the Bible - you're attempting to topple Biblical doctrine that does in fact define part of who God is and reveals insight into His nature...
I submit to you that man (meaning Bible believing Christians) have ALWAYS understood that everything came to be by act of special and intentional creation.
Patently not true. As far back as the early Christian philosopher Origen (and probably before) we have Christians understanding Genesis as mostly allegory and symbolism. Origen is considered one of the most important figures of early Christianity.
quote:
Evolution is only a VERY recent idea that has been thrust into the mix in an effort to define existence with God as the great watchmaker who builds this contraption and then watches it work...
IF "evolution" were true, then it, along with creation, would define part of the nature of God, and would have been big enough to be mentioned - show me "evolution" in God's Word.
We already went over this, you didn't address, now are repeating the same thing over again. In a universe without evolution, we still have the same problem. Is God a human zygote, a pimply teenager, a man in his 30's, a middle aged guy with white hair and a beard, a sickly looking homeless person, or an old man with a cane or a walker? Which one is the image of God?
quote:
Better yet, respond to the original challenge - show me how evolution meshes with Genesis 1: 26-28.
Try reading exegesis of the creation account that take a non-literalist view.
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 11:40:04 AM
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PromiseLander
Posts: 358
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quote:
We already went over this, you didn't address, now are repeating the same thing over again. In a universe without evolution, we still have the same problem. Is God a human zygote, a pimply teenager, a man in his 30's, a middle aged guy with white hair and a beard, a sickly looking homeless person, or an old man with a cane or a walker? Which one is the image of God?
Clearly you've never read passages like Daniel 7: 9-10
9 “ I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.
Keep in mind, Daniel is describing something that is indescribable in human terms, hence the incredible nature of the passage, but apparently God appears to Daniel to be in the form of a man; He has a head, and a body that wears clothing, and white hair...
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Try reading exegesis of the creation account that take a non-literalist view.
I have... The accounts are never reliable becuase there are an infinate variety of interpretations once you stray from the original intention of the passage. Read it the way it was intended, the way the Church fathers read it, the way the apostles wrote it, the way the apostles read it, the way that God dictated it, and you won't go wrong.
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 11:53:30 AM
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PromiseLander
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YES, or NO...
Can God's Word be trusted?
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 2:07:57 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
YES, or NO...
Can God's Word be trusted?
No is claiming that God's Word cannot be trusted.
But that doesn't mean that your fallible reading of scripture can be trusted.
Your interpretation is not God's Word.
To keep conflating your interpretation with God's Word is hubris. In fact, it is idolatry.
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 2:12:49 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
I have... The accounts are never reliable becuase there are an infinate variety of interpretations once you stray from the original intention of the passage.
Is the original intention of the passage to provide a scientific description? How do you know?
quote:
Read it the way it was intended, the way the Church fathers read it,
That would mean reading it allegorically if one follows Origen, Augustine and other Church Fathers.
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the way the apostles wrote it,
The apostles did not write Genesis.
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the way the apostles read it,
Pretty much every example of the OT quoted and interpreted by the apostles is an allegorical interpretation. That is probably why the Church favored allegorical interpretations for most of its history.
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the way that God dictated it, and you won't go wrong.
God did not dictate Genesis or any part of the bible. Inspiration is not dictation.
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 2:13:52 PM
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PromiseLander
Posts: 358
Joined: 1/14/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
YES, or NO...
Can God's Word be trusted?
No is claiming that God's Word cannot be trusted.
But that doesn't mean that your fallible reading of scripture can be trusted.
Your interpretation is not God's Word.
To keep conflating your interpretation with God's Word is hubris. In fact, it is idolatry.
Call me an idolator if it makes you feel any better, but you're the one who keeps putting words into Scripture...
Incidentally, it's not "my" interpretation of Scripture... That's what I keep trying to tell you - God's Word means one thing, and one thing only. Not a different meaning for every person. I read the Bible as interpreted by the Bible.
If you are reading the Bible in support of "evolutionary" ideas, then interpret that in light of other Scripture. Where can it be found in the Bible?
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 2:14:49 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
Joined: 4/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Better yet, respond to the original challenge - show me how evolution meshes with Genesis 1: 26-28.
I did. Post #7
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 2:23:25 PM
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PromiseLander
Posts: 358
Joined: 1/14/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Better yet, respond to the original challenge - show me how evolution meshes with Genesis 1: 26-28.
I did. Post #7
No you didn't, you didn't cite a single Biblical reference, all you did was subterfuge.
Cite ONE clear Biblical reference for "evolution."
Incidentally, if you're reading the Bible strictly from an allegorical interpretation, how do you know that God exists? WOW that's dangerous...
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 2:37:57 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Better yet, respond to the original challenge - show me how evolution meshes with Genesis 1: 26-28.
I did. Post #7
No you didn't, you didn't cite a single Biblical reference,
You asked questions based on your interpretation of Gen. 1:26-28. There was no need to refer to any other reference. I answered all your questions.
If you find the answers inadequate, discuss them directly. Don't just dismiss them without discussion of their merits (or lack thereof). You have not indicated that the answers are inaccurate in any way.
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 3:19:59 PM
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Method
Posts: 1157
Joined: 9/19/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
Of course, how does one define species? One might consider two organisms' "ability or inclination to reproduce" to be one of the most important criteria. However, it does sometimes happen that an offspring may result from mutation that is unable to reproduce with other members of its parents species. Usually, these are infertile, but sometimes, perhaps, they would not be. Rarely, co-occurrence of such mutation COULD happen, providing the also unlikely possibility that such an organism would reproduce with others of like kind. What do you think?
The definition of species applies to populations, not individuals. In order for two populations to be separate species there has to be a restriction of gene flow between the populations.
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 3:20:03 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2523
Joined: 11/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
God is perfectly capable of creating the Earth and everything in it any way He chose to do so, including using some evolutionary processes. Adam and Eve may not have been modern humans, but that does not mean that they did not exist.
Absolutely. Plus, I fear that within this whole argument (which on this forum alone goes on for miles and miles...) we miss the fundamental story that we are wonderfully made in His image; that we sin and are in need of his redemption, which he has promised and revealed in Christ.
Sometimes we forget that we agree on the basic message of Genesis, and but disagree on the mechanics. One does not necessarily need to give one's assent to any particular idea of creation to be able to agree and focus on the message of sin & redemption.
But I interrupt ... please continue.
BT
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Humans are Apes???? - 7/8/2008 8:24:49 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
Joined: 4/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
One does not necessarily need to give one's assent to any particular idea of creation to be able to agree and focus on the message of sin & redemption.
But I interrupt ... please continue.
BT
Amen. A very worthwhile interruption.
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