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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/15/2008 7:31:30 PM
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2Preacher
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quote:
The discussion here is bordering on the ludicrous.
I accept your rebuff, but please understand that I meant only that some of the responses that I had read ( and I read many) were well shall we say "a little off the wall" from my perspective. I meant no disrespect to anyones opinion.
quote:
Does that mean that non-christians who think they are saved cannot bring Christians into false teachings and the unwitting Christian comes under the demonic oppression, depression or what have you that falls short of possession? NO. I respect your position, but let us consider a religious movement that could enter under the auspices of love and light yet render a fellowship hollow and ineffectual at it's fruition. say like liberal theology
I see your point on this. I still hold to my previous statement that no truly born again person can be possessed by the Devil or his demons. Cults, as you well know, such as the "hare krishna's" and the "moonies" to name a few, sometimes prey on young "christians" and I am certain that they lead them into things that leave them open to the influences of the devil and his hordes.
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/15/2008 7:38:03 PM
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Dan1138
Posts: 147
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 2Preacher
Have I ever met anyone who was "possessed"? Yes. I believe I have. The woman was a psychic palm reader and fortune teller. Before you L.O. L. listen to what I say. This woman was the real deal I believe. I am very skeptical about these types of people believing that 99.9% of them are as phony as a three dollar bill. I avoid them if at all possible. But some of them, like this lady are the real thing. Like the witch of Endor in II Samuel, she had a "familiar spirit" i.e. a demon who fed her information and she was accurate in her predictions. (I did not go to her for advice. I was hired to cut her lawn and that is all.)
The thing that sealed the deal for me was when I mentioned the name of Jesus to her one day and spoke about his blood. No sooner had the words drifted from my lips than she began to shriek uncontrollably at me, as though I had cut her with a knife. She screamed at me to leave immediately and never mention that name to her again. Is this not unlike the Gadarene Demoniac who cried out "What have I to do with thee, Jesus thou son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God that thou torment me not". (Mark 5:7)
As in Mark 5, it was the womans voice shrieking at me, but the demon inside her was controlling it. I was young then and inexperienced. I had been a Christian for several years, but I had never experienced anything like that . It quite literally scared the dickens out of me.
I have often wondered why I did not stay and try to help this lady to freedom, but I have no doubt that my experience was real. She was definitely possessed. In all my years of ministry, this is the one and only time I have ever had this experience.
I too have had experiences that you need not hear because these stories lead to morbid fascination. Here is a challenge. Pray for her. Each and every time I find someone so deep into the occult that they are either possessed or opressed or whatever, I pray. Do not be afraid. Greater is he who is in me! And you! I know I preach to the preacher but only to edify you. Dear brother you are not alone.
_____________________________
My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/15/2008 7:40:51 PM
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2Preacher
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The Devil and his Demonic forces are very subtle. He does use things like Liberal theology to tear down the truth. However most "liberal theologians" that I have read and known would deny the existence of the Devil and Demons. Liberalism does quote:
"render a fellowship hollow and ineffectual at it's fruition."
Liberalism tends to make people doubt the very Word of God in my opinion.
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/15/2008 8:03:54 PM
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Dan1138
Posts: 147
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 2Preacher
Why does the Bible say so little about Demons and their influence? Theology books have massive sections on other doctrines but most are scant by comparison when it comes to discussing demons.
I agree with one of the comments posted here that stated that God does not want us to be concerned with them that much. I have no doubt that God wants us to be AWARE of the presence of Demons, to be able to recognize their work, and to exercise authority over them, but I believe that there are more important things to concentrate our efforts for God on.
The most powerful tool the Devil has in his arsenal is UNBELIEF. If he can get Christians to deny the existence of himself or his minions, then he can have free reign in the world. As long as we believe in him and are familiar with his tactics of deception, he knows we will resist him through the power of the blood.
The Devils second most powerful weapon is COMPLACENCY concerning his existence. When Christians who know the truth DON"T CARE the Devil has free reign as well. The "Don't care" attitude makes Satan's existence and that of his demonic hordes seem like a MYTH.
Christians should not "read up" on demonic things. We should not make them a course of study in our Christian colleges and universities or churches. We should not watch films, movies, or television which deal with demonic subjects. WHY? Because it opens the door to a Pandora's box. It desensitizes us to the reality of what the Bible says by making Satan and his minions appear to be a "joke" rather than a "reality". This is extremely dangerous.
We are to "RESIST the DEVIL" by "DRAWING NIGH TO GOD."(James 4:7-8) We are not delve into the "unfruitful works of darkness" 
WOW oompa oompa mow mow!! You said it doc. But what about those of us who always bump into those nasty little chihuahuas. And those of us called to reach deeper for the body of Christ as yet not called to repent. We must sharpen our rhemas. (Short Roman sword about eighteen inches long and probably a model for Paul in Ephesians six) I am reaching to the oppressed brother or sister in Christ or not yet in Christ. I believe that this particular form of apostacy may be the Great Falling away, if not I have harmed nothing by reaching for lost souls. At the very least I have, through the power of Christ, brought the gospel to even the spiritually dead so that there is no excuse for them at judgement.
_____________________________
My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/15/2008 8:09:24 PM
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Dan1138
Posts: 147
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From: The Land of Graham
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 2Preacher
quote:
The discussion here is bordering on the ludicrous.
I accept your rebuff, but please understand that I meant only that some of the responses that I had read ( and I read many) were well shall we say "a little off the wall" from my perspective. I meant no disrespect to anyones opinion.
quote:
Does that mean that non-christians who think they are saved cannot bring Christians into false teachings and the unwitting Christian comes under the demonic oppression, depression or what have you that falls short of possession? NO. I respect your position, but let us consider a religious movement that could enter under the auspices of love and light yet render a fellowship hollow and ineffectual at it's fruition. say like liberal theology
I see your point on this. I still hold to my previous statement that no truly born again person can be possessed by the Devil or his demons. Cults, as you well know, such as the "hare krishna's" and the "moonies" to name a few, sometimes prey on young "christians" and I am certain that they lead them into things that leave them open to the influences of the devil and his hordes.
First let me apologize for my sharp tone.
Second I agree fully with you except one thing. Many many Christians are falling to these doctrines of devils. A woman in my own church feels vibrations off of peoples heads then tells them all about their lives, as if she spoke for God. Many prominent church leaders are falling into the trap of Contemplative Prayer.
_____________________________
My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/15/2008 11:38:50 PM
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2Preacher
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quote:
Many many Christians are falling to these doctrines of devils.
Dan1138:
This is true. We have a man here in Lakeland, Florida. He is an "evangelist" from Canada and has been holding a "healing" crusade for over a month now. Recently, he has been making claims to have been raising the DEAD back to life. The problem is that the only "proof" he can give is "e-mail" messages!! People are flocking to hear him and be "healed" however the reports that come back are that the services are more like "glorified" rock and roll concerts than church services with very little preaching of the Gospel if any. It is mass confusion for the most part. Funny thing, my Bible tells me that "God is not the author of confusion". (I Cor. 14:33) If God is not the author of confusion, who is?
I realize that this is not the same as reading the "vibrations" on someones head, but this kind of stuff is going on all around us. The so called "new wave" in the church embraces all kinds of things that years ago would not have even been considered. Christians are getting into yoga, eastern mysticism, and all kinds of things that the Bible condemns.
They are truly "heaping to themselves teachers having itching ears" (II Tim. 4:3-4). It is a sign of the times. The Bible tells us that there will come a "falling away" (II Thess. 2:3) in the last days. That "falling away" is already occurring as more and more Christian people are being sucked into new age philosophies and mysticism.
Did you see the poll where a high percentage of "church going" Christians say that there is more than ONE way to get to Heaven? I think the % was like 67% or so. 27% stated that they weren't even certain that God exists!! Most believe in HEAVEN but deny the existence of an eternal hell!
I can see those things coming from unbelievers but the ones they "polled" were "Christians", church going ones at that.
I have often said that "for everything that God has in the original, the Devil has a counterfeit". There are counterfeit preachers, teachers, bibles, and gospels out there. The ultimate counterfeit, of course, will be the Anti Christ along with the beast and the False prophet of the Tribulation. As ministers we must guard our flocks against these counterfeits.
Paul said, "I marvel that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But THOUGH WE OR AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN, PREACH ANY OTHER GOSPEL UNTO YOU THAN THAT WHICH WE HAVE PREACHED UNTO YOU, LET HIM BE ACCURSED. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, LET HIM BE ACCURSED" i.e. damned to hell fire. ( Galatians 1:6-9)
How are you handling the woman in your church? Have you confronted her? I know this is hard, but it is the right thing to do. What type of church do you pastor? Do you believe the woman is a true believer?
If the practices of our people do not line up with the Word of God, we as Pastors i.e. Shepherds over the flock are responsible, under the Word of God, to confront those things. If we do not, we are putting our flock in danger of being led astray.
For example read Galatians where Paul confronted the church because they were listening to the Judaizers and trying to require converts to Christ to keep the Law of Moses, including Circumcision. (Gal. 3-5) Look at his remarks to the Corinthian church who were, as he put it, "carnal" (I Cor.3:1) Check out his severe denunciation of their sinfulness in chapter 5:1- ff.
Paul did not pull punches. He disciplined in love. He disciplined for the benefit of the individual as well as the church. We, as ministers and shepherds over God's flock, must do the same. (II Corinthians 2:1-11)
Note especially verse 4 "for out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you." Also note verse 9-11 " for to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things. To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; lest SATAN SHOULD GET AN ADVANTAGE OF US: for we are not ignorant of his devices."
Almost the entire book of I Corinthians is about correction of doctrinal error or sin of some sort. II Corinthians is pretty much the same. Paul took sin in the church and false teaching seriously. He confronted it head on in love and so should we. It is our responsibility as the Shepherd of God's flock to be vigilant.
If I may be frank, this woman is practicing what the Bible calls "divination" in a sense. I don't know where you stand, but the Old Testament condemns the practice of divination as a form of witchcraft which is also condemned in Scripture.
My brother, I feel for you. I sympathize with you and will pray for you, but you must look at what this woman is doing in the light of Scripture. You must judge it by what God says and not what she or any one else says, else you are putting your flock at risk of being led astray by this thing.
Discipline of this sort is never easy or comfortable for the one doing it or for the one being disciplined, but it must be done in order to preserve correct doctrine in the church. Do it in love with much prayer following God's directive in Matthew 18:15-17 and Galatians 6:1-10.
Don't know if this is of any help, but I felt it needed to be said. Guard your flock my brother. God will reward your faithfulness.
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/16/2008 1:30:52 PM
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DougHorton
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Let's be careful not to build our doctrines on experiences, whether they are ours or belong to somebody who knows somebody we know.
The heart is deceitful above all else.
Let's stick to scripture.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/17/2008 1:29:53 AM
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2Preacher
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quote:
Let's be careful not to build our doctrines on experiences, whether they are ours or belong to somebody who knows somebody we know.
Who's doing this? Not me. I try to base my doctrine squarely on the Bible. After all, the Word is always right and always will be.
There are, however, many who do not base their beliefs on the Scripture but on other things. Things like feelings, experience, and the words and traditions of me.
Admittedly, Doug, most of what is said here falls into the realm of personal opinion. But "building our doctrine on our experiences"???????? I don't really think so. Give me the opinions of men for discussion, but give me the Bible for doctrine. I'll choose Scripture every time.
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/17/2008 12:24:42 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
The discussion here is bordering on the ludicrous. When we consider that the HOLY SPIRIT of God is 100% God and therefore 100% HOLY, RIGHTEOUS, and PURE it is easy to understand that HE would NOT under any circumstance share his abode i.e. the body, mind, or soul of a BELIEVER with one who is the ABSOLUTE OPPOSITE of all that HE IS
I understand I am now a few posts down from when this statement was written, but I do not believe I have seen it addressed.
If, as you state the Holy Spirit would not (under any circumstances) share his abode with a demon, how then does He share it with sinful human beings? Does He overlook the sin? How about when a Christian - not just a professing Christian - but one who does follow Christ - sins, DELIBERATELY - this does happen..........
Paul also wrote of his battle with sin - stating he does what he does not want to do and so on.
We are convicted by the Holy Spirit - and can and do ask for forgiveness.
But sometimes Christians fall away - demons are involved and the more deliberate the sin, the more demons have place to do what they do. Anyway, getting off topic with that thought...........
I have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit can be in the same place as a demon. There is a constant spiritual war going on - for men's souls and for anything real as opposed to counterfeit.
I have always understood that a proper translation of possession would actually be demonized. I have heard that explained as a person HAVING, or, if you will, POSSESSING the demon, rather than the other way round. Without a doubt, Christians are influenced by demons. The problem comes when we think "possession' and all that word implies.
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/17/2008 2:58:18 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
If, as you state the Holy Spirit would not (under any circumstances) share his abode with a demon, how then does He share it with sinful human beings?
Because He inhabits blood-bought, blood-righteous, joint-heirs in Jesus Christ, God the Son. God the Holy Spirit, like the Father, sees the redeemed through the righteousness of God the Son.
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/17/2008 3:02:36 PM
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Him4all
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Solarflare,
I think you're post is quite accurate. 
quote:
I have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit can be in the same place as a demon.
I agree, and that's why I posted all the scriptures confirming that POV on my post #41. A post which didn't receive even one rebuttal dealing specifically with even one of those verses.
Dan: #45 To admit 'bias' in this post, and then back it with nothing but your 'opinion', doesn't make for a very strong point IMO. But you are certainly entitled to hold it if you wish.
2Preacher: #46 After reading every one your posted verses, all I can say is I believe your exegesis of scripture is weak IMO. I can't even say I found relevancy in the first 7 chapter/verse quotes you made to 'prove' your POV.
As Solarflare's last paragraph mentioned, possession has nothing to do with us being possessed by the devil or his demons...if anything it has to do with us possessing them....and being 'demonized', or 'holding on to their influence'. The Greek word for true 'possession' doesn't even exist in the verses talking about devils and demons. It was simply bad KJV translating, which bred bad doctrine. A doctrine which is still in evidence today in most churches, and also by many here, who are posting so prolifically. The Greek word that is used in a couple of verses though, is the word 2192 echo: to hold. And in those verses it is the person who holds a demon and not vice versa.
MAR 3:22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath/holds Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
ACT 16:16 NAS It happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a slave-girl having/holding a spirit of divination met us,
DR
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/17/2008 3:12:01 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
I agree, and that's why I posted all the scriptures confirming that POV on my post #41. A post which didn't receive even one rebuttal dealing specifically with even one of those verses.
I read it and didn't comment out of politeness because you were quoting verses pertaining to the unsaved or tares within the Church. The only place I see a comment about believers in the regard makes it sound unlikely, at best, when Jesus said, "if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." The implication being that it's NOT POSSIBLE to decieve the very elect.
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/17/2008 3:29:05 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
Because He inhabits blood-bought, blood-righteous, joint-heirs in Jesus Christ, God the Son. God the Holy Spirit, like the Father, sees the redeemed through the righteousness of God the Son.
While that is true, it does not at all address whether or not Christians can be demonized. Where does it say that demons and the Holy Spirit cannot, for example, be in the same room? Why not in the same body?
Or how about along side of it?
Again, if you interpret the word as demonization, as in having a demon, it is no longer a question of possession;l I would take exception with that myself as I do not believe Satan can possess a Christian. Scripture contains far too much admonition to be aware of the wiles of Satan for Scripture quoting, such as yours, to settle the matter. Else, why bother with any other instruction, such as the armor, or taking note that Satan prowls around like a lion seeking who is susceptible to being devoured by him; these things are not written to non-Christians, so why the instruction if not for the very reason that Christians ARE susceptible and need to beware.
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/17/2008 4:01:06 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
Behind every sinful act lurks a demon. That is true, but it does not equate to demon possession. What is demonization exactly? I apologize if I have missed the clarification elsewhere in the thread. Thank you!
Hi Wes
Geez I would have missed you!  Have any of that corn for me? Looks good! Really corny: Has anyone ever told you how much you look like the President?
Seriously, glad you followed up. OK, would it be alright to get away from the word possession? As it is not the correct interpretation anyhows?
Could we and the others here agree on that one and then have a go at the rest of it?
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/17/2008 4:22:37 PM
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JimboFletch
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If you can explain "casting out" without a demon first being inside, then I'll go with demonized instead of possession.
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/17/2008 4:32:03 PM
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solarflare
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Well, actually the expression 'behind every sinful act lurks a demon' is not scriptural. The Bible actually teaches that we are drawn away and fall due to our own lusts (I'm sure you know that - just making a point here).
First, we have to examine whether or not we need to even care whether or not demons exist. Scripture indicates that we do need to be knowledgeable - not personally, but from our position in Christ - which is above all principalities etc. - it is Jesus who defeated Satan and took the advantage from him over us. Therefore, we must remain in Christ to continue in that victory.
HOWEVER we are admonished to put on the armor of God - and THAT is where so many Christians fall short. The responsibility for our walk is our own - and the same goes for being aware of Satan's tactics - ie. DECEPTION being the main one. That is what was done in the garden of Eden and that is still his method today.
What is demonization? The word, daimonizomai means demonized, meaning to be under the power of a demon and Scripture indicates that there are varying degrees of such power - we have the demoniac (so-called) of the Gadareenes who was 'beside himself' - cutting himself and living naked in the tombs - we have a slave girl following after Paul and declaring him a servant of the Most High God. We have Ananias and Sapphira - who apparently had their hearts filled with Satan and encouraged to lie to the Holy Spirit. (Peter asked the question: How is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit? Acts 5) There is no indication that these two were not saved - the Bible does not say they lied because they were unbelievers - anyway, there you have 3 examples of demons at work in people. Two unbelievers and, apparently, two believers.
Can we say that the man who had so many demons that they referred to themselves as 'legion' was possessed? According to the actual translation, the answer would be no. We can further acknowledge that demons can have a very great influence in someone's life WITHOUT possessing them.
So, if we continue to examine Scripture in the light of a correct translation of the word in question, we actually begin to see a different and actually disturbing pattern. Believers can and are swayed by the demonic - even those who think otherwise. I am not interested in so-called deliverance ministries, lest anyone wave that flag at me - I am interested in the truth - because, THAT is what will set us free. I am interested in understanding - which means looking into the matter and not just taking someone else's word for it. I don't agree with everything out there on this subject, but I do agree that Christians, while they should not give credit to the devil, are a whole lot more bothered by him then they acknowledge.
As someone once said, the Scripture in Ephesians (6) that states, We wrestle not against flesh and blood, is sometimes read, or interpreted as, we wrestle not.
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/17/2008 4:35:04 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
If you can explain "casting out" without a demon first being inside, then I'll go with demonized instead of possession.
But there is nothing to say that demonized does not mean 'being inside'.
Without doubt, they must first be out before they are 'in', so to speak.
Again, it means to have a demon, rather than a demon having a person -possession would mean to be owned by, to have something, means YOU have it - it does NOT have you. And of course, you would want it out, I would think.
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/17/2008 4:49:57 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
If you can explain "casting out" without a demon first being inside, then I'll go with demonized instead of possession.
I have already proven in post 41 that demons live inside? And that same post also points out that the danger of it happening is for believer and unbeliever alike. As far as proving you should believe in 'demonization' instead of 'possession' I believe that I've already addressed that too. You just need to follow up and see if what I said is true or not. Or maybe tell me where you know I quoted the Greek and scripture wrong.
Location has nothing to do with whether demonization or possession is a correct term. As I've said many times before (on CW), 'Whether a demon's influence on you is from within or without doesn't really matter'. What does matter though, is if you yield to them when influenced, and then do/say that very thing. If you do, then what difference does it make whether they were in/on you?
DR
I know you're proud of post 41, but nothing in it proved your point, as I replied above. I've seen nothing that convinces me that a believer can have a demon inhabit the Holy Spirit's Temple.
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/17/2008 4:53:42 PM
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JimboFletch
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David wrote that he had never seen the faithful begging bread. Well, I can say in all sincerity, that, in my over 41 years of being a believer, I have never seen a born again, blood-bought, joint heir with Christ inhabited or controlled by a demon.
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/17/2008 5:28:34 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 403
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From: Kansas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
David wrote that he had never seen the faithful begging bread. Well, I can say in all sincerity, that, in my over 41 years of being a believer, I have never seen a born again, blood-bought, joint heir with Christ inhabited or controlled by a demon.
I have...but I honestly don't remember any of them even being thin...let alone "begging for bread."
"Faithful" does bring up an interesting point though. Unfortunately, a lengthy discussion of being 'in the faith' versus being 'of the faith' would probably be of little interest to those inclined to believe only what they already believe. Suffice it to say there is a big difference between being in the faith and being "faithful" to the faith...which is a qualifying factor in the verse you quoted.
DR
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: :: Demon-Possessed Christian? - 7/17/2008 7:55:43 PM
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