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ORIGINAL: DougHorton

Perhaps the question should be rephrased:

Can a believer, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, be demonized.

I see no evidence from scripture that indicates this cannot happen.

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ORIGINAL: WesP
If that is true, then how can anyone remain a free Christian? Would not the demons just afflict everyone and win all the souls to hell? I ask in complete sincerety.

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If that is true, then how can anyone remain a free Christian? Would not the demons just afflict everyone and win all the souls to hell? I ask in complete sincerety.

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Also, our "freedom" is really choosing to be a bond slave to Christ. The "freedom" should not be seen as autonomous freedom to do anything and everything, but freedom to do what pleases Christ. Pleasing Christ is saying "no" to the sin around us.

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ORIGINAL: 2Preacher

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When we consider that the HOLY SPIRIT of God is 100% God and therefore 100% HOLY, RIGHTEOUS, and PURE it is easy to understand that HE would NOT under any circumstance share his abode i.e. the body, mind, or soul of a BELIEVER with one who is the ABSOLUTE OPPOSITE of all that HE IS i.e. A demonic spirit. (I John 1:5; I Cor. 6:19; I Cor. 3:17; John 14:17;I Cor. 3:16;II Tim 1:14; James 4:5)

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2Preacher: #46 After reading every one your posted verses, all I can say is I believe your exegesis of scripture is weak IMO. I can't even say I found relevancy in the first 7 chapter/verse quotes you made to 'prove' your POV.

Well, this one I did not write, so I can't get back to you on it.

Solarflare:

I see your point but my point was intended to focus attention on the HOLINESS of the the HOLY SPIRIT. Each of those references has to do with the character and dwelling place of the Holy Spirit as God. Yes, I got that.

I John 1:5 states that " God is light, and in him is no darkness at all" i.e. God is absolutely devoid of all that is evil in his character. In the book of I John, the author is instructing us as to how to have fellowship with God. He uses the terms "light" and "darkness" to mean "good" and "evil". By using this reference, I emphasize that the Holy Spirit, who is God, is in his essence 100% pure goodness or "holiness". There is not a smidgen of evil or "darkness" in him. Why then would he share his abode with that which is totally evil i.e. a Demon. I totally agree - I John 1:5 is a beautiful passage - There could never be any loss of Holiness -
and there is no loss of holiness - we do not really know the depravity of our sinful state as, for us, that is how we have always been. We became the property of the devil in the garden and Jesus has bought us with His blood. I do not understand why it would be impossible for the Holy Spirit to be in the same area with the demonic - he would have to go there anyway to dispel it, would He not? Perhaps you envision it as a 'mixing' of the two - I do not think of it that way. But separate - not together.
Say an alcoholic becomes a Christian - he has 10 days to live because his body is ravaged by his alcoholism - can Christ heal him? Yes. Will He choose to do so? I don't know. But if the alcoholic is not healed, he will die, but now, as a Christian - but he will still die. So, he is indwelt by the Holy Spirit - but still ravaged in his flesh; to the point of death. Did salvation cure him? No! But, it did save him. He still paid the price of his sinful nature. In the same way, when we become a Christian, do all of our bad habits and sinful ways suddenly cease? NO! Even Paul spoke of that battle. So, do the demons who had a right to our lives because of the sin suddenly all go? They can - but most often, no. Again, not possessed, but bothered, harassed, yes, even inside. We cannot say that this is not so, for Jesus cast demons out and it is also one of the signs that are to follow believers.


I Corinthians 3:16,17; 6:19; II Timothy 1:14 Speak of his dwelling place in this world i.e. the life of a believer. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would "abide with" , "dwell with" and "be in" believers. (John 14:15-17) These terms mean that he takes up residence in the heart and life of a believer. I Corinthians 6:19 tells me that the Body of believers is his temple. One has only to read the Scriptures relating to the Tabernacle in the wilderness and the Temple at Jerusalem to see how God feels about his dwelling place. Nothing impure was allowed there. The only one that could enter into the presence of God's holiness in the temple was the high priest and even he had to come with the blood of the atonement else he would be struck dead by God.

Yes, to all of the above. However, again, I ask, do we suddenly stop sinning because the Holy Spirit is inside of us? No. Sin, is what separates us from God. So, according to your example, should our sin not cause the Holy Spirit to leave us? But that does not happen, or we would have to be saved all over again! Instead, THE HOLY SPIRIT CONVICTS US OF SIN and the blood of Jesus cries out to God continually on our behalf. Hebrews 12:24 - Jesus blood is the blood of our atonement, no longer the system set in place by God through Moses.

I believe when the Scripture states that the HOLY SPIRIT of God is going to "abide with" "dwell with" and "be IN" me, it means that he lives inside of me. He took up residence when I was born again and has been there ever since. I am "bought with a price" (I Cor. 6:20; 7:23) i.e. HE OWNS ME or to put in terms of this discussion, I am his blood bought possession.
Yes.


The "temple" must be HOLY and free from all that defiles it. Nothing impure should be allowed to defile it by reason of the presence of his HOLY occupant. No demon would be allowed to dwell in the presence of this HOLY occupant. Satan is allowed to come into the presence of God, but he cannot "dwell" i.e. live there. His abode is, for now, in the earth but eventually he will be consigned to Hell itself for all of eternity along with all of his demons. Holy of Holies - once a year - priest - without that inner sanctuary - lots of sin went on. The blood of animals never actually atoned for a human's sin - only Jesus blood could do that - so, God looked forward to the day when Jesus blood would be in that inner Holy of Holies - not in the eartly temple - which was/is only a dim picture of the reality in heaven

James 4:5 states that the "spirit that DWELLETH IN US lusteth to envy." i.e. he is jealous. In context here he is jealous over his peoples relationship with him. "The friendship of the world is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."
The idea is the same as Jesus saying that "no man can have two masters". But, and I may be reading into things a little, the words "dwelleth in us" have a deeper significance as well i.e. he is jealous of his dwelling place.

Yes, that is all true - found in Scripture. But again, we are not talking about possession - but rather the human having a demon - not owned by one


My Greek exegesis may be a little weak due to lack of consistent use, but I stand by my Statement concerning the HOLINESS of the HOLY Spirit and the fact that he won't share his abode with that which is unholy i.e. a demon.

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If, as you state the Holy Spirit would not (under any circumstances) share his abode with a demon, how then does He share it with sinful human beings? Does He overlook the sin? How about when a Christian - not just a professing Christian - but one who does follow Christ - sins, DELIBERATELY - this does happen..........

Paul also wrote of his battle with sin - stating he does what he does not want to do and so on.

We are convicted by the Holy Spirit - and can and do ask for forgiveness.
But sometimes Christians fall away - demons are involved and the more deliberate the sin, the more demons have place to do what they do. Anyway, getting off topic with that thought...........

I have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit can be in the same place as a demon. There is a constant spiritual war going on - for men's souls and for anything real as opposed to counterfeit.

In answer to your second statement concerning "deliberate sin" and the Holy Spirit sharing his abode with " sinful men". I believe that there are aspects of this which will have to wait for Heaven to be answered i.e. the "how" ?

I believe that the Holy Spirit is greived by the sin which believers fall into and especially when it is deliberate sin. I also believer that demonic influences are at play when Christians deliberately sin. When we think about it though, nearly all sin is deliberate in some sense or another is it not.

During OT times, when the Holy Spirit is spoken of, it usually says that "he came upon....." a person (I Sam. 11:6). We are even told that He was taken from Saul and replaced by an "evil spirit". (I Samuel 16:14)
The Spirit of God came and went from people in the OT. Generally when he is spoken of as having left an individual or people, it is because of sin.

In the New Testament, He is said to "dwell with" and "be in" the believer. As to how he abides in the same place as the sin nature, I am not sure, but I believe he does because the the Scriptures tell me that he does not leave me. When sin is present in the life, he is grieved, but he does not leave because he said he wouldn't. (Heb. 13:5)

Again my exegesis may be weak but my intention is pure.

The idea behind "falling away" is another subject. I do believe that it is entirely possible for a believer to be led astray and I know that it happens every day in our time. Many are led astray by false teachers today. There are many "teachings" out there that purport themselves to be Bible that are anything but. At the same time there are many "Christians" who are ignorant of what the Bible actually teaches. They don't read their Bible themselves. Yes, they do not even read, never mind study. However, we also must take into consideration the fact that God allows the itching ears to be scratched.

They ignore the injunction of II Tim 2:15 to "study to show thyself approved unto God" and instead rely on teachers, preachers, and other sources for their "knowledge" of what the Word of God says.
The result is a confused DECEIVED Christian and an easy target for false teachers.
Put these two together and what have you got -- a Falling away from the truth as God would have it preached. DECEPTION - Jesus warned about it a significant number of times - Satan is the great deceiver, but humankind is deceived - falls away - because of its own lusts, which of course makes Satan's job so much easier.....

Please don't misunderstand. I am not saying that all Bible teachers, preachers, televangelists etc. are bad or wrong. But there are many who are false in their teaching and in their motives -i.e. "wolves in sheeps clothing". They are blind leaders of the blind. God's people need to get their teaching from the source - the Word itself rather than men. You don't have to convice me! Hey, you don't even have to apologize.

The question of Demonic involvement is answered in the affirmative. Yes, they are involved. I believe that they are right inside some churches even during the services where the word of God is being preached. They certainly showed up when Jesus taught!
But as for their "indwelling believers" I stand by my former statement. Believers are the peculiar possession of the Lord. They are indwelt by his HOLY spirit and although they can be influenced by other spirits, they cannot be taken over by them. "Greater is he that is IN you than He that is in the world." (I John 4:4b) Well, keep studying and praying about it. I firmly believed that at one time also.


Sorry it's soooo long.

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ORIGINAL: WesP

So.....we are all demonized? Perhaps I am not getting how you define demonized. We all have temptations. Is that the same thing?

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Can a believer, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, be demonized ?

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I see no evidence from scripture that indicates this cannot happen.

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ORIGINAL: solarflare

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ORIGINAL: WesP

So.....we are all demonized? Perhaps I am not getting how you define demonized. We all have temptations. Is that the same thing?

Let's go back to the original question asked by the OP in this thread.
Can a born-again believer be demon possessed? I think we all agree that they cannot. However, we are certainly not 'demon free' zones either.

If you read my example in response to another poster, I wrote about the effects of what we have done (sin) do not necessairly go away the moment we are saved. Else, we would sin no more. I used the example of an alcoholic becoming saved and yet still having to live/die with the effects of that alcoholism in his body.

Are we all demonized - and are we talking about temptations? We are tempted by our own sinful nature - and yes, it can be demonic. The topic is extensive - and scripture actually has alot to say on the matter if you research it. Some of it, quite surprising actually. I could recommend some good - ie. balanced and not extremeist - reading material if you would be interested. Demons are just another fact of our existence here and will not be in heaven. The devil will not be in heaven. But, we will be.
Again, all that stuff going on a Lakeland - it is very real - but it is not the Holy Spirit - it is the great deceiver at work and the results are a great deception, but Christians do not have an excuse for the deception. Everything we need to overcome and live for Christ, is in our Bibles - the sword of the Spirit - the Word of God. I wrote a little item on the Bentley thread re the armor of God. Here it is:


Apparently life preservers are to be avoided at all costs and a drowning in the sea of bentley is preferable.

People are destroyed for lack of (Biblical) knowledge. It would seem you can self-inflict terrible wounds when your sword is not sharpened and you do not know which end is which. The helmet is also being worn backwards and the shield is completely thrown aside in the name of misplaced faith. The girdle of truth was never put on - or perhaps it became too cumbersome - couldn't run to and fro quite as fast....
The shoes are quite worn through and not much good now - that comes from walking in places with many stones and hard ground.
The breastplate? Many holes from accepting lies from Satan.

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ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

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ORIGINAL: Him4all

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ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

If you can explain "casting out" without a demon first being inside, then I'll go with demonized instead of possession.

I have already proven in post 41 that demons live inside? And that same post also points out that the danger of it happening is for believer and unbeliever alike. As far as proving you should believe in 'demonization' instead of 'possession' I believe that I've already addressed that too. You just need to follow up and see if what I said is true or not. Or maybe tell me where you know I quoted the Greek and scripture wrong.

Location has nothing to do with whether demonization or possession is a correct term. As I've said many times before (on CW), 'Whether a demon's influence on you is from within or without doesn't really matter'. What does matter though, is if you yield to them when influenced, and then do/say that very thing. If you do, then what difference does it make whether they were in/on you?

DR

I know you're proud of post 41, but nothing in it proved your point, as I replied above. I've seen nothing that convinces me that a believer can have a demon inhabit the Holy Spirit's Temple.

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I see your point but my point was intended to focus attention on the HOLINESS of the the HOLY SPIRIT. Each of those references has to do with the character and dwelling place of the Holy Spirit as God.

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I John 1:5 states that " God is light, and in him is no darkness at all" i.e. God is absolutely devoid of all that is evil in his character. In the book of I John, the author is instructing us as to how to have fellowship with God. He uses the terms "light" and "darkness" to mean "good" and "evil". By using this reference, I emphasize that the Holy Spirit, who is God, is in his essence 100% pure goodness or "holiness". There is not a smidgen of evil or "darkness" in him. Why then would he share his abode with that which is totally evil i.e. a Demon.

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I Corinthians 3:16,17; 6:19; II Timothy 1:14 ...(John 14:15-17) ... I Corinthians 6:19 ...

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I believe when the Scripture states that the HOLY SPIRIT of God is going to "abide with" "dwell with" and "be IN" me, it means that he lives inside of me. He took up residence when I was born again and has been there ever since. I am "bought with a price" (I Cor. 6:20; 7:23) i.e. HE OWNS ME or to put in terms of this discussion, I am his blood bought possession.

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James 4:5 states that the "spirit that DWELLETH IN US lusteth to envy." i.e. he is jealous.

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ORIGINAL: 2Preacher

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Can a believer, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, be demonized ?

Doug:


IMO the answer is as follows:

1. If you mean by "demonized" that they can be tempted to sin, caught up in the traps of habitual sin i.e. pornography addiction, etc. OR led astray by false teaching or teachers, THEN the answer is YES. They can be and I believe this happens all the time. I would call this state a state of OPPRESSION which occurrs due to either spiritual immaturity or failure to draw close to the lord and resist the Devil.

2. If you mean by "demonized" that they can be fully possessed by the Devil or his Demons in the sense of being fully controlled by them as a slave i.e. an unbeliever, THEN the answer is NO. This an IMPOSSIBILITY it cannot and does not occur because:

A. Believers are the peculiar possession of God bought with the Blood of Christ - I Peter 1: 18-19 "for as much as ye know that ye were not REDEEMED (bought back) with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the PRECIOUS BLOOD OF CHRIST, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot." I Corinthians 6:19-20 "...your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."

b. Believers are the peculiar possession of God SEALED with the Holy spirit. Ephesians 1:13-14 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, YE WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE, WHICH IS THE EARNEST OF OUR INHERITANCE UNTIL THE REDEMPTION OF THE PURCHASED POSSESSION, unto the praise of his glory." The word "earnest" means a "down payment" if you will. It shows the full intent of God that he will follow through with the completion of the transaction. Note that we are called his "purchased possession" i.e. believers belong to God and the indwelling, abiding, Holy Spirit is the "down payment" on the promise that God has not only redeemed my soul from hell but he is also going to fully redeem my body as well from the curse of sin and death.
(Romans 8:18-23; I Corinthians 15:35-57)

c. Believers are indwelt by the HOLY SPIRIT of God until death or rapture. John 14:15-17 "If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may ABIDE WITH YOU FOR EVER; even the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for HE DWELLETH WITH YOU, AND SHALL BE IN YOU." "Abide" means "remain"; "Dwell" means "to take up residence"; and "in" means "inside" indicating place of residence "in you".
Jesus was trying to relieve the fears of his disciples concerning his death and ascension back to heaven. He promised them "another Comforter" from the Father. His words "he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you" refer to the fact that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the same essence. While Jesus was "dwelling with them", so also the Holy Spirit was there. His words "he shall be in you" indicate the future dwelling place of the same Spirit i.e. in the lives of believers.

Galatians 4:4-6 states: "but when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them what were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father".

I realize that context here is that of the conversion of them which were "under the Law" i.e. Jewish believers, but the content of these verses also applies to gentile believers in that we also have the "Spirit of his Son" whom God has "sent forth . . . INTO" our hearts.

Philippians 1:6 "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it unto the day of Jesus Christ."

"He which hath begun a good work in you" is the Holy Spirit of God in the believer. He will "perform" his work until Jesus returns to take the believer home (rapture) or the believer dies and goes to heaven which ever comes first.

I Corinthians 6:19-20 "What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's".

Note: the words "which is" in verse 19. They are in italics because they were added by the KJV translators for "clarification". The verse makes perfect sense without them to me. "...your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost IN YOU ..." The words "ye are not your own" and "glorify God in YOUR BODY, and in YOUR SPIRIT, which are God's" show POSSESSION (note the " 's" on the word "God" indicating possession.) As I stated in an earlier post, God owns me lock stock and barrel. He bought me and has possessed, i.e. taken up residence, in me through the Holy Spirit.

d. NO one, not the devil, his demons or any man can take even the weakest True believer out of God's hand. John 10:27-30 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."

Note: I have quoted the verses exactly as they occur in the KJV. Note that Jesus refers to his sheep as "my" sheep indicating possession. They "belong" to him. Notice that the word "man" is in italics which in the KJV indicates that it is supplied for "clarification". In the first occurrence in verse 28 even without the word "man", the meaning is clear. "neither shall ANY pluck them out of my hand" meaning "no person, no power, no being of any kind" can take the sheep (believers) from the shepherd. In short, the Devil cannot "repossess" territory which has been taken from him through Calvary's redemptive act.


Doug:

quote:

I see no evidence from scripture that indicates this cannot happen.

Just as you see "no evidence from Scripture that indicates this cannot happen", I see no evidence that it can other than as I have explained above. It all depends on how one interprets Scripture and the meaning of words.

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ORIGINAL: WesP

So.....we are all demonized? Perhaps I am not getting how you define demonized. We all have temptations. Is that the same thing?

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ORIGINAL: 2Preacher
I agree that believers cannot be possessed like everyone else here seems to believe.

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Using the word "demonized" kind of "threw me for a loop" if you know what I mean.

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They are not concerned with those who are unbelieving because they are already theirs.

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ORIGINAL: 2Preacher

Solarflare: Sorry about the confusion on that "long" response i.e. post #82. I'm new here and wasn't paying attention.

BTW I appreciate your wisdom and the answer to my post that you gave. I tend to get a little wordy and sometimes they don't always come out the way I intend them to. I agree that believers cannot be possessed like everyone else here seems to believe. Using the word "demonized" kind of "threw me for a loop" if you know what I mean.

We are in a spiritual battle and the Devil and his hordes are working over time. They are not concerned with those who are unbelieving because they are already theirs. Instead they are concerned with believers and they are especially concerned with believers who are actively involved in the fight.

God bless and thanks for your wise counsel on this subject.

2Preacher