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Obama's 'rightward drift' on abortion - 7/9/2008 7:42:28 AM
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Lizahana
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I am just posting to see what people think...
"Obama's Rightward Drift Sparks Outcry from Democrat Abortion Extremists
By Peter J. Smith
WASHINGTON, D.C., July 7, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Sen. Barack Obama has the Democratic Party's pro-abortion political base incensed and up in arms over recent overtures designed to soften the candidate's image as the party's most pro-abortion presidential candidate ever. The presumptive nominee has followed recent calls for continuing faith-based initiatives by voicing a position in favor of abstinence education and prohibiting abortion in certain cases.
Sen. Barack Obama has been trying to enhance his appeal to voters by moving closer to the political center at the same time as pro-family and pro-life groups have been drawing attention to his extreme positions. Obama's PR overtures, however, may be backfiring among Democratic core voters convinced Obama was the one candidate more pro-abortion than his rival Sen. Hillary Clinton.
In an interview in Relevant.com called "Covering God, Life, and Progressive Culture," Obama said that he would support a ban on "late-term abortions" for certain reasons."I have repeatedly said that I think it's entirely appropriate for states to restrict or even prohibit late-term abortions as long as there is a strict, well-defined exception for the health of the mother," said Obama.
"Now, I don't think that 'mental distress' qualifies as the health of the mother. I think it has to be a serious physical issue that arises in pregnancy, where there are real, significant problems to the mother carrying that child to term. Otherwise, as long as there is such a medical exception in place, I think we can prohibit late-term abortions....""
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/jul/08070713.html
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RE: Obama's 'rightward drift' on abortion - 7/9/2008 8:10:53 AM
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Rufas2000
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Thanks for the info and link. This quote from a pair of ladies identified as "exreme pro-abortion" startled me:
quote:
But telling women that the Democrats' commitment to abortion rights is what should drive their vote, while simultaneously suggesting…that given the choice, having a baby is a more moral choice than abortion, will be understood for what it is: condescending and sexist."
That says it all about certain elements of the pro choice crowd.
As far as Obama goes, he has been drifting right on several issues. I think his current position on abortion is better than having the same attitude as the two ladies quoted above. It just calls into question whether his positions are "evolving" or is he just saying whatever he feels he needs to in order to get elected. He won the Democratic nomination by being further left than Hillary Clinton but chances are he won't win the general election that way, thus his drift toward the center. Not that McCain hasn't done the same but he has gotten closer to his base whereas Obama is drifting away from his. Also, to my senses it apears that McCain's "evolution" has been more natural and he's explained what circumstances have changed to lead to his changed positions.
Honestly I'm disappointed in both of them and feel like I'll be choosing the lesser of two evils again (three if you include Nader). Not sure about Libertarian candidate Bob Barr yet.
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RE: Obama's 'rightward drift' on abortion - 7/9/2008 9:25:22 AM
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iluvatar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rufas2000
It just calls into question whether his positions are "evolving" or is he just saying whatever he feels he needs to in order to get elected.
I wonder that, too. I get the impression that, if there were a politician who was willing to listen to a reasoned argument and change their position, it would be Obama. Even if you ignore religious motivations and focus solely on legal precedent, science, and reason, I think the pro-life movement has strong support for their position. If Obama is as reasonable as he makes himself out to be, I could see him being swayed.
-Dan.
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RE: Obama's 'rightward drift' on abortion - 7/9/2008 10:21:58 AM
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rcjames
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Obama is an avowed supporter of killing babies, and no amount of rhetoric will change that.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Obama's 'rightward drift' on abortion - 7/9/2008 11:16:12 AM
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SuspenseWriter
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Just the same old "triangulation" thing politcians of all stripes are famous for: tell 'em what they want to hear, then after you're in office, do what you like.
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RE: Obama's 'rightward drift' on abortion - 7/9/2008 11:29:44 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
Just the same old "triangulation" thing politcians of all stripes are famous for: tell 'em what they want to hear, then after you're in office, do what you like.
I have a different but similar take - still the same old "triangulation". To win each primary, each candidate needs to be near the center of each party. For Dem's that means leaning left. For Republicans, that means leaning right.
To win a national election, you need to be near the national center. That means for Dem's moving to the right once the nomination is sealed. For Republicans, that means moving a bit left.
Fairly normal and pretty much a mathematical necessity in order to win.
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RE: Obama's 'rightward drift' on abortion - 7/9/2008 11:44:42 AM
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sue244
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
Just the same old "triangulation" thing politcians of all stripes are famous for: tell 'em what they want to hear, then after you're in office, do what you like.
I have a different but similar take - still the same old "triangulation". To win each primary, each candidate needs to be near the center of each party. For Dem's that means leaning left. For Republicans, that means leaning right.
To win a national election, you need to be near the national center. That means for Dem's moving to the right once the nomination is sealed. For Republicans, that means moving a bit left.
Fairly normal and pretty much a mathematical necessity in order to win.
Except in McCain's Case he didn't lean to the right to get the base, he got in because the right was split between Romeny and Huckabee. So he hasn't really moved much in my opinion where as Obama started so far Left he is making a Mad dash to the center to get there before Nov. McCain would be smart to acually care a little bit about the base to the right of him since Obama is trying to court them by telling the excactly what they hear, but I don't think he is going to do that. As other have said its going to be voting for the lesser of two evils and then hope for a better crop in 2012.
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RE: Obama's 'rightward drift' on abortion - 7/9/2008 11:48:36 AM
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IonMoon
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rufas2000
It just calls into question whether his positions are "evolving" or is he just saying whatever he feels he needs to in order to get elected.
This really is no evolution... as it has been his stated opinion all along. It is exactly what he said early in the primaries when I saw him live... Same with his Christianity/support of faith based initiatives- was clearly spoken then.
The anti-Obama group uses his voting record as the reason they call him pro-abortion. He voted against a bill banning late-term abortions, but has always been clear that it was because it did not allow for exceptions for the ehalth of the mother.
One reason why I like Obama is because he stands by his beliefs--even in areas where I disagree with him.
Tara P
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RE: Obama's 'rightward drift' on abortion - 7/9/2008 11:52:31 AM
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GroupW
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True enough - McCain's situtation this year is a bit unique in this regard. There is enough of an anti-right/anti-Bush sentiment right now that moving right in his case could actually be detrimental. He already was somewhat centered to begin with, so he didn't need to move rightward initially to gain the nomination. Which in turn means he didn't need to move toward the center later on.
Though to be fair, he had already moved slightly right from his earlier stances prior to the election cycle in anticipation of a run for office. For example, his attempt to make nice with Dobson and other religious leaders that he'd earlier dissed.
Interesting times....
BT
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"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Obama's 'rightward drift' on abortion - 7/9/2008 12:09:52 PM
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Rufas2000
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quote:
This really is no evolution... as it has been his stated opinion all along. It is exactly what he said early in the primaries when I saw him live... Same with his Christianity/support of faith based initiatives- was clearly spoken then.
Fair enough, what about his stance on the war in Iraq? What about his acceptance of public financing (or lack thereof)? My post addressed an overall trend and not just the abortion issue.
The Iraq one is a biggie because one of the reasons many on the left voted for him over Clinton because he did not vote to authorize the war in Iraq (which he would probably still do) and he said we would definitely be out by a date certain once he became president. Now he is saying we'll have to see what happens. I think its a prudent position and circumstances have changed (we are doing better) but his position did change (becoming less certain and direct).
The public fiancing issue: he said (paraphrasing by memory) that he supports public financing and would do everything possible to make a deal where both McCain and himself would accept public financing. But the cash started rolling in to his campaign and subsequently he rejected public financing. Did he do so out of self interest or was it something else? I think its a legitimate question. I'm not saying McCain would not have done the same thing but we'll never know since his campaign is trailing badly in donations so he was never placed in that position.
I liked Obama and McCain when this election started. Obama is a great speaker and seems to be a nice guy, McCain was a hero as a POW and seems to be a straight talker. Both looked to be something different. On my blog I said I wanted these two to win the nominations of their respective parties in the early going. I still think they are the best candidates from their respective parties but both of them have disappointed me and have seemed quite ordinary in the last month or two.
quote:
The anti-Obama group uses his voting record as the reason they call him pro-abortion.
That seems reasonable.
quote:
He voted against a bill banning late-term abortions, but has always been clear that it was because it did not allow for exceptions for the ehalth of the mother.
OK, my personal feeling is that I'll take him at his word on why he voted against it (and he did reinterate that in the article linked in this thread) but actions speak louder than words. He voted against the bill and that has to be considered regardless of his stated reason why. Has he cast any other votes in his career as a politician that confirm that he would vote for such a bill if it did contain that provision? Maybe he never had the opportunity but that is just the way it is.
< Message edited by Rufas2000 -- 7/9/2008 12:16:16 PM >
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RE: Obama's 'rightward drift' on abortion - 7/9/2008 1:00:59 PM
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ljmac
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This from a guy who once tried to deny medical care to fully born babies who accidentally survived an abortion. His opposition to the Illinois version of the Born Alive Infant Protection Act has been well documented. Read some of Jill Stanek's work.
This guy is either incredibly confused or very deceitful. He's on the record as being very much against the SC partial birth abortion ruling permitting banishment of the sick practice. In plain language, he's for the legalization of sucking the brains out of babies. He's also a co-sponsor of FOCA, the freedom of choice act, which would mandate legalization of the very abortions he now says he'd like to ban.
He doesn't get a 100% rating from NARAL for nothing. He's earned it.
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RE: Who's Flip-Flopping the Most? - 7/9/2008 1:53:58 PM
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Rufas2000
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quote:
Obama's stance on Iraq has not changed. He had consistently said that he plans on ending the war in Iraq and bringing the troops home within 16 months. It would be irresponsible of him to start withdrawing troops willy-nilly without talking to the generals on the ground about how many to withdraw, from where and when. His time-table hasn't changed, he merely gone into more detail as to how he would go about withdrawing troops. I would hope that if situations on the ground required him to leave troops in a little longer that he wouldn't adapt the GWB "cowboy" approach of doing what he wants regardless of the consequences.
He was much more adament about withdrawing troops in 16 months before (when he was running for the Democratic nod) than he is now. Now he is saying nothing is certain. He has taken a great deal of flack from his anti-war (ex?) supporters over this. They claim he has revised his position and they watch this issue like a hawk.
I personally like the change in position but is it fueled by common sense or pragmatism?
quote:
There no doubt in my mind that if McCain could raise more money without the public financing that he wouldn't be talking about flip-flopping on finance reform. It's ironic that the same man who proposed comprehensive immigration reform and then flip-flopped when he needed support from the far right is talking about flip-flops. Then there's the time when McCain opposed the Bush tax cuts for the rich before he supported them..
All good points.
Public financing: we'll never know, my sense tends to go the way yours does but we have no proof.
Tax cuts: he claims that because the tax cut is already in place that to resind it would be a de facto tax hike. I leave it to the reader whether to buy into it or not.
Immigration Reform: He says that the American people have spoken and said that they will accept no immigration reform policy without a secure border being established first. This sounds good at least on the surface, aren't politicians supose to represent us?
I'll add one to your list:
Off shore drilling: McCain has said that the situation has changed. Rapidly rising gas prices has created a situation where we have to take drastic measures, including drilling in places previously considered off limits.
Both candidates have changed positions. It may be that McCain has just done a better job explaining (excusing?) his evolving stances on issues.
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RE: Who's Flip-Flopping the Most? - 7/9/2008 4:24:21 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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Don't worry folks Obama is without a doubt in favor of killing the unborn...
John
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RE: Who's Flip-Flopping the Most? - 7/9/2008 5:03:00 PM
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Evangel70
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quote:
Don't worry folks Obama is without a doubt in favor of killing the unborn...
John
And you know this for a fact because of
....personal conversations you've had with the senator?
....personally having witnessed Obama killiing babies?
....God gave you special ability to look into a person's heart?
I hope for your sake that you're just being facetious. Otherwise, you're a scary dude, John.
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RE: Who's Flip-Flopping the Most? - 7/9/2008 5:51:27 PM
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ljmac
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
quote:
Don't worry folks Obama is without a doubt in favor of killing the unborn...
John
And you know this for a fact because of
....personal conversations you've had with the senator?
....personally having witnessed Obama killiing babies?
....God gave you special ability to look into a person's heart?
I hope for your sake that you're just being facetious. Otherwise, you're a scary dude, John.
We know this because he has a record.
He once tried to deny medical care to fully born babies who accidentally survived an abortion. His opposition to the Illinois version of the Born Alive Infant Protection Act has been well documented. Read some of Jill Stanek's work.
Obama is either incredibly confused or very deceitful. He's on the record as being very much against the SC partial birth abortion ruling permitting banishment of the sick practice. In plain language, he's for the legalization of sucking the brains out of babies. He's also a co-sponsor of FOCA, the freedom of choice act, which would mandate legalization of the very abortions he now says he'd like to ban.
He doesn't get a 100% rating from NARAL for nothing. He's earned it.
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RE: Who's Flip-Flopping the Most? - 7/9/2008 7:56:12 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
quote:
Don't worry folks Obama is without a doubt in favor of killing the unborn...
John
And you know this for a fact because of
....personal conversations you've had with the senator?
....personally having witnessed Obama killiing babies?
....God gave you special ability to look into a person's heart?
I hope for your sake that you're just being facetious. Otherwise, you're a scary dude, John.
Because the man has a record in regards to abortion that speaks for itself... You hope I am just being just being facetious? By all means explain how you seem to the dark regarding Barack Obama's very clear support for abortion, the murder of unborn children...
Sen. Obama received the following scores on NARAL Pro-Choice America's Congressional Record on Choice.
2007: 100 percent
2006: 100 percent
2005: 100 percent
Protect a woman's right to choose
For almost a decade, Obama has been a leader in the Illinois legislature in the battle to protect a woman's right to choose and promote equal economic rights and opportunities.
Source: Campaign website, ObamaForIllinois.com May 2, 2004
http://www.ontheissues.org/Social/Barack_Obama_Abortion.htm
John
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RE: Who's Flip-Flopping the Most? - 7/9/2008 9:49:01 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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I can recall when Barack Obama first showed up on radar folks talked about how he stood by what he believed in and how they really liked that... Of course now that he has to sway those who live in the middle and are swayed mostly by whatever serves them he coming over to the right...
Faith based funding(Bush program)? Why not... Got to pander to the evangelicals...
Death penalty for rapist? Sure... That was easy since we all know it will not happen...
His support for the electronic surveillance bill that gives retroactive immunity to telecommunications companies that participated in the Bush administration's warrantless wiretapping program. The one he previously promised to filibuster the bill if it contained the immunity clause. Go figure...
His support of the Supreme Court's decision affirming the constitutional right of individuals to bear arms.... Interesting given that in the past he supported BANS on guns...
Even the war... To the point he felt he had to speak again on the matter to <cough> clarify...
Some breath of fresh air... I guess he feels like he has his base in his back pocket so why not jump the fence for a few more votes...
John
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RE: Who's Flip-Flopping the Most? - 7/10/2008 9:31:38 AM
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Jhud
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This is Obama's voting record:
-Voted NO on defining unborn child as eligible for SCHIP. (Mar 2008)
-Voted NO on prohibiting minors crossing state lines for abortion. (Mar 2008)
-Voted YES on expanding research to more embryonic stem cell lines. (Apr 2007)
-Voted NO on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions. (Jul 2006)
-Voted YES on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives. (Mar 2005)
-Sponsored bill providing contraceptives for low-income women. (May 2006)
-Rated 0% by the NRLC, indicating a pro-choice stance. (Dec 2006)
That he is the least bit supportive of a pro-life stance is laughable; that he now claims to be sympathetic to the pro-life cause is horribly deceptive.
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“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Who's Flip-Flopping the Most? - 7/10/2008 9:35:04 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
This is Obama's voting record:
-Voted YES on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives. (Mar 2005)
-Sponsored bill providing contraceptives for low-income women. (May 2006)
Help me out with your perspectives on these two. I would have thought these were both essentially pro-life (not necessarily pro-abstinence) positions.
Just trying to understand another point of view - I actually tend to view both of these were progress toward reducing abortion.
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"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Who's Flip-Flopping the Most? - 7/10/2008 9:52:24 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
Help me out with your perspectives on these two. I would have thought these were both essentially pro-life (not necessarily pro-abstinence) positions.
Just trying to understand another point of view - I actually tend to view both of these were progress toward reducing abortion.
I don't think birth prevention is pro-life per se; it may concievably prevent a situation where an abortion decision must be made, but that itself is not pro-life. And it flies in the face of his new claim that he wants to promote abstinence.
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“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Who's Flip-Flopping the Most? - 7/10/2008 9:57:06 AM
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GroupW
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Ah. Now I get your point. Thanks.
BT
Edit: Then again maybe not.
quote:
I don't think birth prevention is pro-life per se; it may concievably prevent a situation where an abortion decision must be made, but that itself is not pro-life.
I'm not sure how one could consider the prevention of an unwanted pregnancy anything other than pro life. Certainly, it's not pro-abstinence, but I would view it as pro-life indirectly. Some of the pregnancies that are prevented would have been babies in good families, but a certain significant fraction would have been aborted. Seems to be birth control should be one part of a comprehensive pro-life strategy.
I think I'll have to noodle on that for a while.
Continuing that discussion here is also probably off-topic. Sorry for the diversion.
< Message edited by GroupW -- 7/10/2008 10:07:53 AM >
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RE: Who's Flip-Flopping the Most? - 7/10/2008 10:05:15 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
And it flies in the face of his new claim that he wants to promote abstinence.
Not sure I understand that link - the strategy I think he's interested in with respect to abstinence is to teach abstinence but provide a safety net knowing that abstinence education alone is insufficient to reduce the number of unwanted children (a tragic concept in and of itself) to an acceptable level.
I see the two as complementary and not antagonistic.
(Not disagreeing that he's modified his tune here - just explaining my point of view which is admittedly a minority one.)
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