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RE: Who's Flip-Flopping the Most? - 7/10/2008 12:02:49 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2713
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Contraceptive programs are just one part of a list I provided demonstrating Obama's extreme abortion stance. And while contraceptive promotion isn't necessarily a pro-abortion stand, there is very little evidence that the availability of contraceptives (which have been widely available since the '70s) has reduced unwanted pregnancies or abortions.
Maybe I'm being thick. I understand most of your list but I still can't get my head around how being pro-contraception is related to an "extreme" pro-abortion stance. In my mind, both sides of that debate should be pro-contraception.
Is there any evidence at all that contraception doesn't impact unwanted pregnancies? I would bet my last dollar that if you did away with contraceptives, we'd see a lot more pregnancies and abortions. Just a guess ;).
We're probably getting a bit off-topic, so the next time we run into each other on a more appropriate thread we can continue the discussion.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
...there is very little evidence that the availability of contraceptives (which have been widely available since the '70s) has reduced unwanted pregnancies or abortions.
P.S. - I'm not buying this. There are several studies that show abstinence education by itself is ineffective in reducing unwanted pregnancy. An abstinence+contraceptive approach has been demonstrated to be more effective. Basically the idea is to expect success, but allow a safety net for failure. That's a time honored management principle - we do this with our employees and it works tremendously well on a variety of issues.
But, this is a bit of a bunny trail. I'm going to cease and desist before someone slaps me on the wrist and tells me to behave. It's fun to discuss with you though, so it's tough to quit.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Who's Flip-Flopping the Most? - 7/10/2008 12:23:49 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7505
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Maybe I'm being thick. I understand most of your list but I still can't get my head around how being pro-contraception is related to an "extreme" pro-abortion stance. In my mind, both sides of that debate should be pro-contraception.
Is there any evidence at all that contraception doesn't impact unwanted pregnancies? I would bet my last dollar that if you did away with contraceptives, we'd see a lot more pregnancies and abortions. Just a guess ;).
We're probably getting a bit off-topic, so the next time we run into each other on a more appropriate thread we can continue the discussion.
Obama’s pro-abortion votes demonstrate his extreme views on abortion. His contraceptive votes contradict his claim that he wants to promote abstinence, a claim he makes to mollify those who are concerned with his abortion votes.
quote:
P.S. - I'm not buying this. There are several studies that show abstinence education by itself is ineffective in reducing unwanted pregnancy. An abstinence+contraceptive approach has been demonstrated to be more effective. Basically the idea is to expect success, but allow a safety net for failure. That's a time honored management principle - we do this with our employees and it works tremendously well on a variety of issues.
But, this is a bit of a bunny trail. I'm going to cease and desist before someone slaps me on the wrist and tells me to behave. It's fun to discuss with you though, so it's tough to quit.
The reality is that teen and single mother pregnancies have been higher since the inception of legal abortion and widely available contraceptives then they ever were previously – neither does what it is claimed they will do.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Who's Flip-Flopping the Most? - 7/10/2008 12:53:17 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2713
Joined: 11/16/2007
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OK, I get you now. Naturally, I disagree but I understand. I don't see the advocacy of contraception as contradicting abstinance. I see them as complementary issues - teach abstinence but supply a safety net. Much like the seatbelts in my car. I'll teach my son to drive responsibly, but I'm not taking out the seatbelts....just in case.
Reasonable people can disagree there.
On the statistics regarding the growth in unwanted pregnancies versus the availability of contraception/abortion. The fact that unplanned pregnancy grew at a time when contraceptives were available isn't really proof of anything except bad statistics. I think I've seen you say this before on other threads, but correlation doesn't imply causality.
There were a number of other factors in play at the same time that make a simple statement comparing the two growth patterns unreliable. Attitudes within certain high-growth subcultures regarding contraception, attitudes within certain high-growth subcultures regarding child birth outside of marriage, changing attitudes toward sex generally, a generalized lessening of the stigma associated with single parent households, and many more.
Other more reliable statistical methods have compared the effectiveness of abstinence only education to abstinence education plus contraception. Those have provided evidence that a balanced approach is the more productive. Hence, I don't see the contradiction between the provision of contraception and abstinence.
Here too, I'm willing to admit that reasonable people can disagree.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Who's Flip-Flopping the Most? - 7/10/2008 2:16:01 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7505
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
On the statistics regarding the growth in unwanted pregnancies versus the availability of contraception/abortion. The fact that unplanned pregnancy grew at a time when contraceptives were available isn't really proof of anything except bad statistics. I think I've seen you say this before on other threads, but correlation doesn't imply causality.
There were a number of other factors in play at the same time that make a simple statement comparing the two growth patterns unreliable. Attitudes within certain high-growth subcultures regarding contraception, attitudes within certain high-growth subcultures regarding child birth outside of marriage, changing attitudes toward sex generally, a generalized lessening of the stigma associated with single parent households, and many more.
Other more reliable statistical methods have compared the effectiveness of abstinence only education to abstinence education plus contraception. Those have provided evidence that a balanced approach is the more productive. Hence, I don't see the contradiction between the provision of contraception and abstinence.
Here too, I'm willing to admit that reasonable people can disagree.
Well what the statistics do demonstrate is that the wide availability and knowledge of abortion and contraceptives do nothing to curb unwanted pregnancies, whatever the effectiveness of alternate programs. What a pro-contraceptive program advocate has to explain is why there were fewer teenage and unwed pregnancies before such things were widely available than there are now.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Obama's 'rightward drift' on abortion - 7/10/2008 4:20:51 PM
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loloidong
Posts: 60
Joined: 7/8/2008
From: Seattle, WA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
I am just posting to see what people think...
"Obama's Rightward Drift Sparks Outcry from Democrat Abortion Extremists
By Peter J. Smith
WASHINGTON, D.C., July 7, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Sen. Barack Obama has the Democratic Party's pro-abortion political base incensed and up in arms over recent overtures designed to soften the candidate's image as the party's most pro-abortion presidential candidate ever. The presumptive nominee has followed recent calls for continuing faith-based initiatives by voicing a position in favor of abstinence education and prohibiting abortion in certain cases.
Sen. Barack Obama has been trying to enhance his appeal to voters by moving closer to the political center at the same time as pro-family and pro-life groups have been drawing attention to his extreme positions. Obama's PR overtures, however, may be backfiring among Democratic core voters convinced Obama was the one candidate more pro-abortion than his rival Sen. Hillary Clinton.
In an interview in Relevant.com called "Covering God, Life, and Progressive Culture," Obama said that he would support a ban on "late-term abortions" for certain reasons."I have repeatedly said that I think it's entirely appropriate for states to restrict or even prohibit late-term abortions as long as there is a strict, well-defined exception for the health of the mother," said Obama.
"Now, I don't think that 'mental distress' qualifies as the health of the mother. I think it has to be a serious physical issue that arises in pregnancy, where there are real, significant problems to the mother carrying that child to term. Otherwise, as long as there is such a medical exception in place, I think we can prohibit late-term abortions....""
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/jul/08070713.html
MENTAL DISTRESS? Wow, lets abort the child because she is worried about motherhood.
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RE: Obama's 'rightward drift' on abortion - 7/10/2008 4:22:12 PM
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loloidong
Posts: 60
Joined: 7/8/2008
From: Seattle, WA
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Don't be fooled. Obama is rated 100% by NARAL on pro-choice votes in 2005, 2006 and 2007.
It is election time so it's time to "change" appearances.
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RE: Who's Flip-Flopping the Most? - 7/10/2008 4:25:34 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2713
Joined: 11/16/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Well what the statistics do demonstrate is that the wide availability and knowledge of abortion and contraceptives do nothing to curb unwanted pregnancies, whatever the effectiveness of alternate programs. What a pro-contraceptive program advocate has to explain is why there were fewer teenage and unwed pregnancies before such things were widely available than there are now.
Then you misread the statistics. I'll say what I did earlier a bit differently. Let's assume I have a one-factor model of a multidimensional problem. Y=a+bX. By eliminating W, and Z as variables, I can get a completely wrong factor for the coefficient b. I might even get the sign of b wrong. If I redefine the equation as Y=a+bX+cZ+dW, then I get a much more accurate picture of what is correlated to what.
If we say that pregnancies increased coterminously with the increase in birth control, but we ignore changes in the fertile population, changes in social attitudes and social composition, then we are eliminating key variables in the equation. We have essentially defined a multidimensional problem within a one-factor model.
All a pro contraception advocate needs to prove is that given two essentially similar populations across all dimensions that determine pregnancy rates, the contraceptive PLUS abstinence education population has fewer pregnancies than the abstinence education alone. This has been done. I can try to find a couple of articles for you.
Basically, the argument you're trying to make is too simply defined to be accurate.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Who's Flip-Flopping the Most? - 7/10/2008 5:18:45 PM
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loloidong
Posts: 60
Joined: 7/8/2008
From: Seattle, WA
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quote:
While there is truth in what you say, what difference does it make concerning Osama? He backs abortion but is trying to gain support by seeming to shift his historical stance. What a crock!
WesP,
It is OBama not OSama.
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RE: Who's Flip-Flopping the Most? - 7/11/2008 12:05:59 AM
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henny
Posts: 1190
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: MN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
What a pro-contraceptive program advocate has to explain is why there were fewer teenage and unwed pregnancies before such things were widely available than there are now.
What statistics are you referencing here, specifically?
_____________________________
Many Bothans died to bring you this information.
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RE: Who's Flip-Flopping the Most? - 7/11/2008 11:16:06 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2713
Joined: 11/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
While there is truth in what you say, what difference does it make concerning Osama? He backs abortion but is trying to gain support by seeming to shift his historical stance. What a crock!
I think the difference it makes would be that it is fair to discuss his abortion position - that's a legitimate issue to discuss. However, I think using his contraception position to imply that he's being insincere on his abstinence position is misleading. One can be an advocate of both abstinence and contraception. The two positions are not necessarily antagonistic to each other.
There's plenty to discuss without getting sidetracked by non-issues. That's all.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Who's Flip-Flopping the Most? - 7/11/2008 4:30:48 PM
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jfwink
Posts: 350
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From: Arizona
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Obama is moving to the center on lots of things, but if elected, is there any doubt that he would nominate far left wing, heavily pro abortion supreme court nominees?
_____________________________
James
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RE: Who's Flip-Flopping the Most? - 7/11/2008 5:12:46 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2713
Joined: 11/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
ORIGINAL: jfwink
Obama is moving to the center on lots of things, but if elected, is there any doubt that he would nominate far left wing, heavily pro abortion supreme court nominees?
There is no doubt that he will continue the trends he has established in the past. All of this center stuff is fluff and smoke for the ignorant.
It's unlikely he could go too far to the left unless the Republicans in congress get completely decimated in November. They still have to be ratified by Congress. Bush was able to get his right-wingers in there due to a significant advantage in numbers (Roberts for example was carried 78-22 - only 44 democrats existed and those were split 50/50.) Given that Obama has to contend with the more conservative wing of his own party as well as the left, I would expect nominations along the lines of Ginsburg, Souder, or Breyer rather than anything from the leftward outer limits.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Who's Flip-Flopping the Most? - 7/11/2008 5:49:44 PM
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loloidong
Posts: 60
Joined: 7/8/2008
From: Seattle, WA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jfwink
Obama is moving to the center on lots of things, but if elected, is there any doubt that he would nominate far left wing, heavily pro abortion supreme court nominees?
He is moving to the center out of convenience. Because he sees he needs to convince the middle he now wants to sound centrist. Once he gets your vote, bam!, back to the (far) left where he is most comfortable. I will bet you he is not feeling confortable in his skin right now trying to sound republican. Well, maybe he is comfortable as he is already adept at politicking and saying things out of opportunity to win votes.
He is still a left wing nut, don't be fooled. His voting record speaks volumes. Don't believe the media hype.
http://www.ontheissues.org/Barack_Obama.htm
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RE: Who's Flip-Flopping the Most? - 7/11/2008 10:18:34 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4495
Joined: 4/15/2005
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Just to calm the fears of those on Crosswalk who support abortion and of course Obama, please don't worry the man does and will continue to supportthe murder of the unborn... Oh, and the homosexual agenda... Amoung other things...
John
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