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RE: Beware lest any man spoil you through.....the tradition of men..
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RE: Beware lest any man spoil you through.....the tradi... - 7/11/2008 11:53:12 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
We have public reading of Scripture (the Torah portion) in Hebrew every week.....
But do you also read from a translation?
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: Beware lest any man spoil you through.....the tradi... - 7/11/2008 12:00:02 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
I suppose I'll wait until someone mentions "church practice".
Thanks anyway.
So you don't read the Bible in your church/gathering of believers?
Our gatherings are built around Scripture.
"Around", not "according to", is correct because NT churches were all connected to each other through the Apostles and the leaders (like James) in the Jerusalem church. Paul, unlike your gathering, sought verification and confirmation from those leaders before setting off.
So, yes, around scripture sounds like a way to decscribe your method. I prefer "according to" much better.
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RE: Beware lest any man spoil you through.....the tradi... - 7/11/2008 2:43:13 PM
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notmycity
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
"Around", not "according to", is correct because NT churches were all connected to each other through the Apostles and the leaders (like James) in the Jerusalem church. Paul, unlike your gathering, sought verification and confirmation from those leaders before setting off.
So, yes, around scripture sounds like a way to decscribe your method. I prefer "according to" much better.
Thanks for the correction Jimbo.
Around and ACCORDING TO Scripture (here are but a few on which our gatherings are based):
Acts 2:42
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
1 Cor 14:23-26
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
Heb 10:22-25
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
I hope that helps.
Thanks again....
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Beware lest any man spoil you through.....the tradi... - 7/11/2008 3:23:58 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribblesquote:
We have public reading of Scripture (the Torah portion) in Hebrew every week..... But do you also read from a translation? Yes, any number of them, English, Spanish, and at least once in Russian.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
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RE: Beware lest any man spoil you through.....the tradi... - 7/11/2008 5:17:24 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
I hope that helps.
Thanks again....
And, I assume, baptisms, the Lord's Supper, weddings and funerals (when required), and washing of the saints' feet:
Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
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RE: Beware lest any man spoil you through.....the tradi... - 7/11/2008 7:53:28 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Yes, any number of them, English, Spanish, and at least once in Russian.
And that's my point. Translation of Scripture is nowhere commanded, or even hinted at, in Scripture, so any translation must be considered something from man. Now, if notmycity would kindly define "tradition" for me, we could see if it's relevant to this discussion.
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: Beware lest any man spoil you through.....the tradi... - 7/12/2008 4:05:27 AM
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ae10u
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Colossians 2:20-22 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Paul seems to nail down one problem with "rudiments of the world" as being that these place unnecessary restrictions on the Christian, which involve ...
touch not/handle not = leaving things alone which God has created to be received with thanksgiving
taste not = dietary restrictions which are not Biblical.
Without going into detail, I can think of lots of religions which major in placing (unbiblical) restrictions on folks. 
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RE: Beware lest any man spoil you through.....the tradi... - 7/12/2008 7:42:31 AM
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notmycity
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Yes, any number of them, English, Spanish, and at least once in Russian.
And that's my point. Translation of Scripture is nowhere commanded, or even hinted at, in Scripture, so any translation must be considered something from man. Now, if notmycity would kindly define "tradition" for me, we could see if it's relevant to this discussion.
Here's one:
The "one-pastor system".
Here's another:
Paid "clergy".
Let's start there please.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Beware lest any man spoil you through.....the tradi... - 7/14/2008 7:15:02 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
And that's my point. Translation of Scripture is nowhere commanded, or even hinted at, in Scripture, so any translation must be considered something from man. Now, if notmycity would kindly define "tradition" for me, we could see if it's relevant to this discussion. It was however, a "prophecy" in Jewish literature. It was told that the Hebrew scriptures would be translated into Greek (and that it was not necessarily a good thing) and that was what encouraged the 70 scholars to translate the LXX for Alexander the Great (and his sucessors).
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Beware lest any man spoil you through.....the tradi... - 7/14/2008 9:19:47 AM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
notmycity
Paid "clergy".
The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages." (1 Timothy 5:17-18)
The word translated here as honor is:τιμή timē
Thayer Definition:
1) a valuing by which the price is fixed
1a) of the price itself
1b) of the price paid or received for a person or thing bought or sold
2) honour which belongs or is shown to one
2a) of the honour which one has by reason of rank and state of office which he holds
2b) deference, reverence
The fact that the verse specifically mentions being worthy of wages denies any argument that in this case double honor means merely greater respect. The use of τιμή as pay or price appears in Matthew 27:6, Matthew 27:9; Acts 4:34; Acts 7:16; and 1st Corinthians 6:20.
Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share from the altar? So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.
(1st Corinthians 9:13-14)
The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him. (Galatians 6:6)
The early church paid their teachers, perhaps not always in the form of money, but certainly by contributing to his support through donations of food and goods.
but then you already knew these verses. Or do you have some definition of clergy that doesn't include those who teach or manage the day to day business of the church?
Define The "one-pastor system".
Tim
_____________________________
The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Beware lest any man spoil you through.....the tradi... - 7/14/2008 11:58:58 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
Paid "clergy".
So Paul was liar when he said he was free to demand a legitimate salary?
You also failed to say whether your home church has baptisms, the Lord's Supper, weddings and funerals (when required), and washing of the saints' feet. If it embarrasses you to admit you don't, that's okay.
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RE: Beware lest any man spoil you through.....the tradi... - 7/14/2008 3:18:22 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1237
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
Paid "clergy".
So Paul was liar when he said he was free to demand a legitimate salary?
Sorry Jimbo. You'll have to show me in Scripture.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Beware lest any man spoil you through.....the tradi... - 7/14/2008 3:22:47 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1237
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BerianAardvark
The early church paid their teachers, perhaps not always in the form of money, but certainly by contributing to his support through donations of food and goods.
While traveling ministers were supported with gifts, there is NO Scriptural support for salaried “pastors”.
On the contrary we have this example:
Acts 20:33-34
33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Beware lest any man spoil you through.....the tradi... - 7/14/2008 3:29:30 PM
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BerianAardvark
Posts: 371
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
Paid "clergy".
So Paul was liar when he said he was free to demand a legitimate salary?
Sorry Jimbo. You'll have to show me in Scripture.
Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you; for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. My defense to those who examine me is this: Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? Or do only Barnabas and I not have a right to refrain from working? Who at any time serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat the fruit of it? Or who tends a flock and does not use the milk of the flock? I am not speaking these things according to human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things? For it is written in the Law of Moses, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING." God is not concerned about oxen, is He? Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to thresh in hope of sharing the crops. If we sowed spiritual things in you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? If others share the right over you, do we not more? Nevertheless, we did not use this right, but we endure all things so that we will cause no hindrance to the gospel of Christ. Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share from the altar? So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.
(1 Corinthians 9:1-14)
Tim
_____________________________
The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Beware lest any man spoil you through.....the tradi... - 7/14/2008 3:52:29 PM
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BerianAardvark
Posts: 371
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quote:
BerianAardvark
The early church paid their teachers, perhaps not always in the form of money, but certainly by contributing to his support through donations of food and goods.
quote:
notmycity
While traveling ministers were supported with gifts, there is NO Scriptural support for salaried “pastors”.
How do you define a pastor? Pastor is Latin for shepherd, one who tends the flock, and there is more than ample scripture calling those called upon to lead Gods people shepherds, and for their being paid to do so.
You are ignoring the very obvious in order to twist and redefine words and scripture to suit your doctrine.
quote:
notmycity On the contrary we have this example:
Acts 20:33-34
33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
Paul did that voluntarily and as a traveling minister NOT as a pastor. Paul himself points this out that those who sow spiritual things have the right to a material return:
Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? Or do only Barnabas and I not have a right to refrain from working? Who at any time serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat the fruit of it? Or who tends a flock and does not use the milk of the flock? I am not speaking these things according to human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things? For it is written in the Law of Moses, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING." God is not concerned about oxen, is He? Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to thresh in hope of sharing the crops. If we sowed spiritual things in you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? If others share the right over you, do we not more? Nevertheless, we did not use this right, but we endure all things so that we will cause no hindrance to the gospel of Christ. (1 Corinthians 9:5-12)
Paul did not use that RIGHT (to be paid) because he didn't want people to say he was only preaching the gospel for money, but he very definitely states that he (and all others who toil in the Gospel) had the right to do so.
Tim
_____________________________
The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Beware lest any man spoil you through.....the tradi... - 7/14/2008 4:16:28 PM
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JimboFletch
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Notmycity, ditto what Tim said above.
And, in case you wonder, Paul was not talking at all about spoils of war.
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RE: Beware lest any man spoil you through.....the tradi... - 7/14/2008 4:52:22 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1237
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BerianAardvark
quote:
BerianAardvark
The early church paid their teachers, perhaps not always in the form of money, but certainly by contributing to his support through donations of food and goods.
quote:
notmycity
While traveling ministers were supported with gifts, there is NO Scriptural support for salaried “pastors”.
How do you define a pastor? Pastor is Latin for shepherd, one who tends the flock, and there is more than ample scripture calling those called upon to lead Gods people shepherds, and for their being paid to do so.
You are ignoring the very obvious in order to twist and redefine words and scripture to suit your doctrine.
quote:
notmycity On the contrary we have this example:
Acts 20:33-34
33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
Paul did that voluntarily and as a traveling minister NOT as a pastor. Paul himself points this out that those who sow spiritual things have the right to a material return:
Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? Or do only Barnabas and I not have a right to refrain from working? Who at any time serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat the fruit of it? Or who tends a flock and does not use the milk of the flock? I am not speaking these things according to human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things? For it is written in the Law of Moses, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING." God is not concerned about oxen, is He? Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to thresh in hope of sharing the crops. If we sowed spiritual things in you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? If others share the right over you, do we not more? Nevertheless, we did not use this right, but we endure all things so that we will cause no hindrance to the gospel of Christ. (1 Corinthians 9:5-12)
Paul did not use that RIGHT (to be paid) because he didn't want people to say he was only preaching the gospel for money, but he very definitely states that he (and all others who toil in the Gospel) had the right to do so.
Tim
Didn't the Spirit also say this through Paul, "And having food and raiment let us be therewith content."? (1 Tim 6:8)
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Beware lest any man spoil you through.....the tradi... - 7/14/2008 5:36:31 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
Didn't the Spirit also say this through Paul, "And having food and raiment let us be therewith content."? (1 Tim 6:8)
Are you telling us with a straight face that enough food and clothing to get by for your family is all you ask of an employer - not even enough for a shelter or medical benefits for the kids?
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RE: Beware lest any man spoil you through.....the tradi... - 7/14/2008 6:17:27 PM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
Didn't the Spirit also say this through Paul, "And having food and raiment let us be therewith content."? (1 Tim 6:8)
What has that to do with paid pastors? If they aren't paid how are they to get the food and raiment? The fact remains that scripture clearly states that those who proclaim the Gospel should get their living from the Gospel.
Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share from the altar? So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel. (1 Corinthians 9:13-14)
You may use all the sophistry at your command to redefine every syllable so that it appears to say otherwise, but it is still a plain statement of scripture.
A pastor is one (among other things) proclaims the Gospel, hence should be paid.
Tim
_____________________________
The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Beware lest any man spoil you through.....the tradi... - 7/14/2008 9:28:54 PM
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prophet
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Since we are on about being workers of the gospel, what about the others? such as the 'lay people'. Do they also get paid since they are also working for the gospel?
In fact, the whole body should be paid since we should all be working for the gospel.
i believe Paul was a tentmaker? In his wriitngs, its not about a salary but that the body should ensure no one is lacking.....including all others.
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Beware lest any man spoil you through.....the tradi... - 7/14/2008 11:05:55 PM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
Since we are on about being workers of the gospel, what about the others? such as the 'lay people'. Do they also get paid since they are also working for the gospel?
In fact, the whole body should be paid since we should all be working for the gospel.
It is plain from the context that Paul is talking about someone like himself that is in full time ministry. Is the whole body working exclusively (as Paul and the others were) for the Gospel? You know that they aren't, so you are merely dragging a red herring across the conversation.
Who at any time serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat the fruit of it? Or who tends a flock and does not use the milk of the flock? (1 Corinthians 9:7)
These are all people with full time jobs who receive their support because of their work.
quote:
i believe Paul was a tentmaker?
Paul voluntarily refused to accept pay from the churches he was FOUNDING, but was supported (at least in part) by gifts from other churches:
You yourselves also know, Philippians, that at the first preaching of the gospel, after I left Macedonia, no church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving but you alone; for even in Thessalonica you sent a gift more than once for my needs. (Philippians 4:15-16)
quote:
In his wriitngs, its not about a salary but that the body should ensure no one is lacking.....including all others.
If you read 1 Corinthians 9:1-18, there can be no question that Paul is talking about the right of those who are working full time being paid for their efforts.
There are several places where Paul writes restricting the giving of support to members of the body 2 Thessalonians 3:10 and 1st Timothy 5:1-13 are examples that come to mind immediately.
All of this was covered in greater depth in the previous posts.
Tim
_____________________________
The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Beware lest any man spoil you through.....the tradi... - 7/15/2008 10:53:05 AM
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notmycity
Posts: 1237
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
Since we are on about being workers of the gospel, what about the others? such as the 'lay people'. Do they also get paid since they are also working for the gospel?
In fact, the whole body should be paid since we should all be working for the gospel.
i believe Paul was a tentmaker? In his wriitngs, its not about a salary but that the body should ensure no one is lacking.....including all others.
Well-said and true.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Beware lest any man spoil you through.....the tradi... - 7/15/2008 9:28:28 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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