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RE: Guns for God. - 7/21/2008 3:44:15 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5590
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Some more thoughts..
Many people make the mistake of believing the Bible says, “You shall not kill,” and seek to apply this command to war. However, the Bible actually says, “You shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13).
The Hebrew word literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice.”
God often ordered the Israelites to go to war with other nations (1 Samuel 15:3; Joshua 4:13).
God ordered the death penalty for numerous crimes (Exodus 21:12; 21:15; 22:19; Leviticus 20:11). So, God is not against killing in all circumstances, but rather only murder.
War is never a good thing, but sometimes it is a necessary thing. In a world filled with sinful people (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable.
It is an error to say that God never supports a war. Jesus is not a pacifist. In a world filled with evil people, sometimes a war is necessary to prevent even greater evil.
If Hitler had not been defeated by World War II, how many more millions of Jews would have been killed? If the Civil War had not been fought, how much longer would African Americans have had to suffer as slaves?
We must all remember to base our beliefs of the Bible, not on our emotions (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
Ecclesiastes 3:8 declares, “there is…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. In a world filled with sin, hatred, and evil (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable.
Some wars are more “just” than others, but all wars are ultimately the result of sin. Christians should not desire war, but neither are Christians to oppose the government God has placed in authority over them (Romans 13:1-4; 1 Peter 2:17).
The most important thing we can be doing in a time of war is to be praying for godly wisdom for our leaders, praying for the safety of our military, praying for quick resolution to the conflict, and praying for minimum casualties – on both sides of the conflict (Philippians 4:6-7).
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/21/2008 3:48:55 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 9710
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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Wow... I knew it would only be a matter of time before someone came to ejumacate us evil-doers... 
#1 Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He was with God from the beginning. He wasn't one God in the OT, then completely changed His entire belief system just because He became man. Period. End of story. Scripture is VERY clear that there is a time to kill. In fact, it even says that EXACT thing. There is NOWHERE in Scripture that says humans should never, ever, ever use deadly force. In fact, throughout Scripture we see where God commanded deadly force in certain instances. Even the 10 Commandments say we shall not MURDER, not we shall not kill. There is a vast difference. This follows through even into the NT. Look at the early church and Ananias & Sapphira who got a "death sentence" directly from God for lying to God (ever read Acts?).
#2 Where does it say Christians can not & should not be in law enforcement? Jesus told the Roman Centurian that He had never seen greater faith in all of Israel. Certainly, if He was in a profession that was "evil" and "monstrous", this was the perfect opportunity to address it. And we see throughout Scripture that this is not an isolated circumstance.
#3 For the life of me, I cannot comprehend why you can't see the difference between killing in self-defense to save the life of an innocent and someone like Ted Bundy. Even the most ardent pacifists, though they may disagree, can see the difference there.
#4 As far as thinking God will protect you and your family from something horrific happening, that is simply wrong. I'm assuming you have read enough history to know some of the horrific deaths and such those in the early church met. And, if you step outside the confines of the US, you will see that Believers today in other parts of the world face horrific things. Even within the US - I had a dear family friend who was a strong believer, who was murdered in cold blood along with her daughter by a psycho. Was she not as "good" as you are?
I'll leave it at that for now... There is much more that I could say but it's probably pointless since you don't appear to be wanting to discuss this. 
_____________________________
~Kristin~
42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/21/2008 3:56:50 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
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nvm.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/21/2008 5:49:40 PM
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rebelman
Posts: 104
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
I was reading today that this all started with Augustine' City of God. This is when the justification started to find ways for Christians to be "active participants" in violant acts. Beforehand, Christians had no intention of such things.
Do you not see the difference between malice/murder and self-defense, the defense of innocent people?
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
And to answer your question, no I do not approve of a "Christian poliice officer' killing people.
You still have semi-skirted my question - so if a Christian police officer (why you would place that in quotes is a bit disrespectful to our law enforcement brothers and sisters in the Lord) has to use his or her weapon to stop a criminal from killing innocent people and or themselves losing their life your answer is that they should not do so?
Wow.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
I can help but when I start assuming I am God and doing what He does (taking life) then we go to a new level. I realize this bashes mainstream American thought but as Christianity has diminished in this country it is honestly getting how sad that we have just plugged ourselves all over the place just because we're in a "gun culture"
Do you not see that we live in a fallen world where sin/evil does indeed exist and the innocent need to be protected?
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
Would GOD permit this to happen?
Yes. And it happens all the time, especially to our brothers and sisters in the Lord that are raped and murdered for being born-again believers.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
I trust God would never do anything that would make me violate His word. I know what you are trying to do, you are going to give me worst case scenarios like you see on TV
No, it is reality. It is what happens day in and day out and it is what I see on a daily basis.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
to try to trick me in to saying I'd kill, thus making me contradict His word. The God I serve would NEVER tempt me beyond my recognition to break His word.
So you believe that because you're a Christian no tragedy can ever occur to you? That is a twisted view of Scripture, ala 'Word of Faith'.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
I've had instances in my life where I "could" have fought. But I just stare or walk away.
And if one of those instances the attacker starts to beat you seeking to kill you - what will you do? Seriously, I don't think you have ever faced any real problems like the ones many believers do face. Self-defense is not a sin.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
Problem with it? It answered your question of Jesus saying kill folks with a sword pretty well. Jesus had to fulfill the image He was to be put on the cross, looking like a thief. Thieves carry weapons. Don't they?
Are you calling the disciples thieves? Because they carried weapons.
Your form of extreme pacifism is downright scary. It places the lives of those entrusted to you in mortal danger and the lives of innocent people around you as well. You have, finally, admitted that if someone were to be raping your wife, attacking/killing your child, you will, by your own admission, stand there and just pray for the criminals to stop.
Reminds me of the story where a guy kept asking God to send him help as he was drowning.. God's providence kept sending him the tools he needed to be rescued, but he was expecting a hand from the sky to appear and take him out of the flood.
I see now the way this discussion is going (minus the fun attempts to mock me and call me stupid *looks up* yep its a Christian site, that explains it, the best ones at mocking and doing this)
Moving right along, I have done my history on this despite you thinking I have not.
Do you realize before Christianity became a "nationalized Religion" Christians REFUSED military service. They refused the Roman army joining and Early Church Fathers wrote tracts about how they refused the military because of Jesus' staunch commands of non violance.
This all began to change when Constantine came around and legalized it all. Turtulian and Origen two infamous names in the first three centuries of Christianities birth all have accounts of this and practiced it in there own life. Do you discount these as all wrong? Have you really done your history on this subject?
I saw your second post and remember you quoted the passage of Matthew 10:34 at random. It reads "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come for peace but to bring a sword". Quoted out of context of where it is and you can derive that Jesus just wants us to sling a sword at people. Read it in context and you will see that it is talking about what the disciples will face which will be persecutions, floggings, and arrest.
I see you kindly ignored. There is a portion of 1 Peter that describes how Christ is our example to live, it reads as follows:
"For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in HIS steps. Who commited no sin, nor was deceit found in His mouth. and while being reviled, He did NOT revile in return. While suffering, he uttered NO threats. But kept entrusting in Himself who judges righteously.
This particular section discusses the life of Christ and this contradicts the whole notion of there are circumstances to "IF "But" and "And" this. Jesus lived and preached a hard message. I am semi disturbed that we are really watering this down to fit our mold of what we want instead of what Jesus/God wants.
_____________________________
"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness"-----2 Corinthians 12:9
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/21/2008 5:58:22 PM
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rebelman
Posts: 104
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
Wow... I knew it would only be a matter of time before someone came to ejumacate us evil-doers...
#1 Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He was with God from the beginning. He wasn't one God in the OT, then completely changed His entire belief system just because He became man. Period. End of story. Scripture is VERY clear that there is a time to kill. In fact, it even says that EXACT thing. There is NOWHERE in Scripture that says humans should never, ever, ever use deadly force. In fact, throughout Scripture we see where God commanded deadly force in certain instances. Even the 10 Commandments say we shall not MURDER, not we shall not kill. There is a vast difference. This follows through even into the NT. Look at the early church and Ananias & Sapphira who got a "death sentence" directly from God for lying to God (ever read Acts?).
I prefer to look at the life of Jesus. I am discussing yall just prefer to stick to "majority rules" option. I am simply stating what Original Christianity was before today, does this bug you?
quote:
#2 Where does it say Christians can not & should not be in law enforcement? Jesus told the Roman Centurian that He had never seen greater faith in all of Israel. Certainly, if He was in a profession that was "evil" and "monstrous", this was the perfect opportunity to address it. And we see throughout Scripture that this is not an isolated circumstance.
Read up on Early Church teachings and writings. They REFUSED to be part of the military of law enforcement.
quote:
#3 For the life of me, I cannot comprehend why you can't see the difference between killing in self-defense to save the life of an innocent and someone like Ted Bundy. Even the most ardent pacifists, though they may disagree, can see the difference there.
For the life of me I can't understand why Jesus said pray for your enemies. For the life of me I can't understand why Jesus never physically hurt people. For the life of me I can't understand why Paul didn't get aggressive and hurt some folks physically instead of getting put in Jail. For the life of me in Luke I can't understand why Jesus was so mean and said "bury your own dead". For the life of me I can't understand why a person said going back to say goodbye to your family then then Jesus said "anyone who turns back is not fit to serve in the Kingdom"
Harsh message, do you ignore what seems to "out of reality". Apparently Jesus did that a bit.
quote:
#4 As far as thinking God will protect you and your family from something horrific happening, that is simply wrong. I'm assuming you have read enough history to know some of the horrific deaths and such those in the early church met. And, if you step outside the confines of the US, you will see that Believers today in other parts of the world face horrific things. Even within the US - I had a dear family friend who was a strong believer, who was murdered in cold blood along with her daughter by a psycho. Was she not as "good" as you are?
Trusting Jesus is wrong now? What do I trust then? Want me to trust myself? Want me to go down to a local store and pick up a gun and do God's work for Him? And Yes I have read up a lot on it and it does not support your notion of what you are preaching on here. They didn't attack back. They did no such thing. Origen and Turtulien are two great examples for Christians today if they would actually read what went on instead of assuming they already know.
Apparently its very wrong on here to be a Bible literalists. To read the words as they were in context, as spoken and see the ones who heard those teachings and lived them out daily. American Christianity does not teach this. Pardon me for being in a slim minority and offending what you are so keen to stand on. I use to believe this stuff too until this year I did my homework and shocked at what I read.
_____________________________
"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness"-----2 Corinthians 12:9
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/21/2008 6:02:43 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
To fight. To be a "military Christianity" to be aggressors instead of the aggressed. That is what Constantine brought to Christianity. That is NOT the original teachings.
That is not even the point we have primarily brought up. I am simply talking about Christians who are in law enforcement and Christians protecting their families from immediate danger and death. You say it is wrong to do so and you even brought up the point of whether God would even allow such horrific things to happen to Christians.
Several of us have addressed those points and I fully addressed the whole extreme pacificism stance you're saying you adhere to. A stance that, by your own admission, could cause the preventable deaths of your family and those around you.
There are sins of omission and sins of commission - not doing what we can to protect innocent people is a sin.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/21/2008 6:37:25 PM
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BarryBum
Posts: 13
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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I am a carry concealed licensed carrier and so is my Pastor, and yes I have carried at church before. I see nothing wrong with it.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/21/2008 6:41:10 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 5143
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Jesus Land
Status: online
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quote:
But it did happen, not just once but twice here in Colorado. In the same day. It was the same shooter, but had it not been for an armed guard at New Life there would have been many, many more killed then there were. That shooter ruined families, he killed 2 daughters and shot their father.
True. My great-aunt attends that church. I'm so thankful the killer was stopped.
quote:
not doing what we can to protect innocent people is a sin.
Psa 72:4 May he (the king) defend the cause of the poor of the people, give deliverance to the children of the needy, and crush the oppressor!
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/21/2008 9:46:11 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4377
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: buckifn
Look at it this way. if you are so against someone at church (or anywhere else) carrying a licensed gun to protect more people from becoming victims of a deadly rampage then you always have another option...step in front of them and be the next one shot.
I mean nobody is forcing you to believe ...not even Jesus is interested in doing that. You have your own free will... Just don't be upset if my free will helps me choose to save someone's life by doing whatever necessary.
Do you trust God to protect you and yoru family? It sure isn't showing. What of God avenging you and protecting you? What of praying for your enemies and praying for your persecutors? Are you going to be busy shooting them while you are doing that?
David didn't trusted in his sling and the rock, He trusted in God... Yet that didn't remove the fact he fell Goliath using the sling and hitting him in the head with the rock...
And by all means make a case that David, a man after God's own heart was attacking out in violence and not in the full faith of God... Cause had he acted in anything less Goliath would have slayed him with out much effort...
John
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/21/2008 9:59:03 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 9710
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
Wow... I knew it would only be a matter of time before someone came to ejumacate us evil-doers...
#1 Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He was with God from the beginning. He wasn't one God in the OT, then completely changed His entire belief system just because He became man. Period. End of story. Scripture is VERY clear that there is a time to kill. In fact, it even says that EXACT thing. There is NOWHERE in Scripture that says humans should never, ever, ever use deadly force. In fact, throughout Scripture we see where God commanded deadly force in certain instances. Even the 10 Commandments say we shall not MURDER, not we shall not kill. There is a vast difference. This follows through even into the NT. Look at the early church and Ananias & Sapphira who got a "death sentence" directly from God for lying to God (ever read Acts?).
I prefer to look at the life of Jesus. I am discussing yall just prefer to stick to "majority rules" option. I am simply stating what Original Christianity was before today, does this bug you?
#1. I just want to make sure we are on the same page. You do believe that Jesus is God and that He was with God from the beginning and that He is with God now, right? Because if you do, you can't just look at 3 years of His ministry on earth and say that all other Scripture is wrong because the way you personally have interpreted those few verses can only mean one thing and all other interpretations that look at ALL of Scripture are wrong.
You see, ALL Scripture is God breathed (remember Paul saying that - and he was actually referring to the OT). God didn't change when Jesus came to earth. When God tells us there is a time to kill... a time for war... He didn't change His mind (Ecclesiastes 3). When God tells us that He instituted government wield the sword and punish evildoers, He wasn't saying law enforcers are supposed to nicely ask people to go walk themselves to jail because they were bad (Romans 13:1-6).
quote:
quote:
#2 Where does it say Christians can not & should not be in law enforcement? Jesus told the Roman Centurian that He had never seen greater faith in all of Israel. Certainly, if He was in a profession that was "evil" and "monstrous", this was the perfect opportunity to address it. And we see throughout Scripture that this is not an isolated circumstance.
Read up on Early Church teachings and writings. They REFUSED to be part of the military of law enforcement.
Many did - some did not. However, as far as I know, we are supposed to follow Jesus, not the early church. The early church was not perfect. Everything has to come back to Scripture - ALL Scripture. The fact is, Jesus confronted a lot of sin in His life - so did Paul. Not one single time did they tell anyone in authority to step down. Not once. Is it because they didn't care? No. Jesus told the woman at the well to go and sin no more because her choice of life was sinful. Paul went even further - check these verses out:
1 Corinthians 9:3 This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. 4 Don't we have the right to food and drink? 5 Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas? 6 Or is it only I and Barnabas who must work for a living? 7 Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk?
Hmmm... He lists soldier among other occupations. There is no condemnation. It is a job like a shepherd and a farmer.
2 Timothy 2:3 Endure hardship with us like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4 No one serving as a soldier gets involved in civilian affairs--he wants to please his commanding officer. 5 Similarly, if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not receive the victor's crown unless he competes according to the rules. 6 The hardworking farmer should be the first to receive a share of the crops.
Again. No condemnation. No "don't do it!". No telling believers this isn't a "Christian" job.
And read Acts 10 about Cornelius - the devout man of God who was also a Roman centurion. Check out what Peter's response to him was. Do you see any condemnation?
quote:
quote:
#3 For the life of me, I cannot comprehend why you can't see the difference between killing in self-defense to save the life of an innocent and someone like Ted Bundy. Even the most ardent pacifists, though they may disagree, can see the difference there.
For the life of me I can't understand why Jesus said pray for your enemies. For the life of me I can't understand why Jesus never physically hurt people. For the life of me I can't understand why Paul didn't get aggressive and hurt some folks physically instead of getting put in Jail. For the life of me in Luke I can't understand why Jesus was so mean and said "bury your own dead". For the life of me I can't understand why a person said going back to say goodbye to your family then then Jesus said "anyone who turns back is not fit to serve in the Kingdom"
Harsh message, do you ignore what seems to "out of reality". Apparently Jesus did that a bit.
You are seeing this as an either/or and it's not. You can love someone and pray for someone and still do whatever it takes to stop them from trying to kill somone else. God loves us and yet how many people has He wiped off the face of the earth? God loved Ananias and Sapphira and yet read Acts 5 to see what the consequences of their actions were.
I have no clue what point you are trying to make with the rest of your statements. Maybe you could elaborate.
quote:
quote:
#4 As far as thinking God will protect you and your family from something horrific happening, that is simply wrong. I'm assuming you have read enough history to know some of the horrific deaths and such those in the early church met. And, if you step outside the confines of the US, you will see that Believers today in other parts of the world face horrific things. Even within the US - I had a dear family friend who was a strong believer, who was murdered in cold blood along with her daughter by a psycho. Was she not as "good" as you are?
Trusting Jesus is wrong now? What do I trust then? Want me to trust myself? Want me to go down to a local store and pick up a gun and do God's work for Him? And Yes I have read up a lot on it and it does not support your notion of what you are preaching on here. They didn't attack back. They did no such thing. Origen and Turtulien are two great examples for Christians today if they would actually read what went on instead of assuming they already know.
Who said trusting Jesus is wrong? Do you just sit in your all day and expect God to drop manna from heaven to feed you? Of course not! God gave you hands and feet and a brain for a reason. Maybe earthless will share the story of the man in the flood or I can share the version that I heard. It's the same idea - basically, God works in many ways - and usually it's through people not through some kind of magical intervention. Or maybe you can share where in Scripture you got the idea that God never uses people to accomplish His purposes. I kind of get the opposite impression. When we start limiting how God can operate, we limit God. But God is not in a box. Who are you to tell God how He is going to protect His flock?
quote:
Apparently its very wrong on here to be a Bible literalists. To read the words as they were in context, as spoken and see the ones who heard those teachings and lived them out daily. American Christianity does not teach this. Pardon me for being in a slim minority and offending what you are so keen to stand on. I use to believe this stuff too until this year I did my homework and shocked at what I read.
Where are you getting this idea? You have yet to address any of the Scriptural arguments I have brought forth and explained why I am wrong in context and such. I know the history and I have come to a different conclusion. You say we are to follow those who heard those teachings and yet the people you quote were not ones who heard Jesus speak directly (check out when Origen lived for instance). Even if they had, read the NT. Even then, there were all kinds of wrong ideas and such flying around and the church fought even then as to what Jesus intended (remember the Jerusalem council). And look at Origen's other teachings. Are you saying you agree 100% with everything he taught? He was a great theologian to be sure, but he wasn't perfect by any sense of the term. Again, we have to go back to Scripture.
By the way, if you truly want to discuss this, it would help if you would discuss some of the points we are trying to make. We are trying to discuss yours and would appreciate the same courtesy.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/22/2008 9:49:46 PM
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buckifn
Posts: 1681
Joined: 5/23/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
Do you trust God to protect you and yoru family? It sure isn't showing. What of God avenging you and protecting you? What of praying for your enemies and praying for your persecutors? Are you going to be busy shooting them while you are doing that?
I sure do...and I also thank Him for giving us resources such as 357's 30aut 6's and other tools I have available to protect my family.
Who are you to say I can't protect my family, church family, or even strangers and pray at the same time? Jesus was dying and prayed for someone..so I am sure I can too.
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/27/2008 1:22:09 AM
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cwb
Posts: 208
Joined: 1/15/2007
From: Eastern NC
Status: offline
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Well, I read the first page, and did not see what Jesus said about guns...
... and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
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We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: Guns for God. - 7/27/2008 1:28:45 AM
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cwb
Posts: 208
Joined: 1/15/2007
From: Eastern NC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless For instance, in the Luke 22 passage that many reference when this topic arises every now and then.. Jesus does tell his disciples to get a sword.
Finally page 3!
And 'sword', means gun. I hope there are no questions about that...
quote:
Did He now? Do you have it in writing Jesus said it was OK to fight people?
Uh-oh... Mr. rebel - what do you believe Jesus expected us to do with our sword/gun/personal sidearm, that He told us to get??? Stand there and look good?
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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