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RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreements before marriage?
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RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreem... - 7/23/2008 7:12:20 PM
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sudden
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sadey
I have a friend that remarried after the death of her husband and she married a man with grown children. Instead of a pre-nup, they went to a lawyer and had their wills drawn up. I think that is a good idea.
I don't understand. How would a pre-nup help either of them if they were to divorce or separate?
Sudden
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I will lie down in rest and sleep and peace, for thou, O Lord, only makest me to dwell in safety.
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RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreem... - 7/24/2008 5:27:14 AM
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ebony101
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I don't see anything wrong with signing a pre-nuptial agreement. It seems to me that the people who are against it are the people who have nothing to lose - and I'm not referring to anyone on the forum. A month or two ago I overheard two people arguing about pr-nuptial agreements and the female was all for it, while the male was against it. His arguments were very weak, as a matter of fact he didn't have any defense just that he shouldn't be signing one. The female was stating her points for it - apparently she was intending to move ahead in life and raise her standard of living and further her education etc., so if and when she got married she was having a pre-nuptial agreement arranged.
Yesterday I watched the show "A Perfect Murder" for the second time, and that just reinforced my belief that pre-nuptial agreements aren't a bad thing at all. It's just a simple agreement that if things don't work out, we both leave the marriage with what we came into it with. No long, messy divorce and squabbling over who gets the house, the car, etc.
P.S. It's also not a good idea to take out life insurance on your spouse. If anything should happen to either one of you, it sets the surviving spouse up as the first suspect. He/She had a motive to get you out of the way.
_____________________________
'We're writing a gospel, a chapter each day,
By the things that we do & the words that we say.'
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RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreem... - 7/24/2008 7:44:39 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CheshireMuse
I see no problem with it. It's not exactly unheard of either. Take the Old Testament Hebrews for example. When a couple were married, there was a "contract" written and signed which outlined exactly what the husband expected from the wife and what the wife expected from the husband. That document is called a "Ketubah" (writing) and the standard form has always included what kind of support the wife is to expect should the husband divorce her. It would also stipulate how she should be supported if he died prematurely, and how to dispose of any real property she brought into the marriage with her.
While I too am uneasy with the modern prenup idea, I do see a very strong historical precedent for it. If Jesus or Paul had a problem with how the Ketubah was being used in the first century, we have no record of it.
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RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreem... - 7/24/2008 8:16:32 AM
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sudden
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ebony101
I don't see anything wrong with signing a pre-nuptial agreement. It seems to me that the people who are against it are the people who have nothing to lose - and I'm not referring to anyone on the forum.
Precisely! Well said ebony101. I'd be suspicious of anyone who would NOT sign one. If they have no intention of taking anything why wouldn't they sign it?
_____________________________
I will lie down in rest and sleep and peace, for thou, O Lord, only makest me to dwell in safety.
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RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreem... - 7/24/2008 11:10:48 AM
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edlove50
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quote:
It's just a simple agreement that if things don't work out, we both leave the marriage with what we came into it with.
In the first place, if you are going to get married the first time or the second time or however many other times, you both better make sure you both are committed to serving Christ and include God in your marriage and I mean all aspects. Prenuptial agreements open a door for divorce. When you get married, you become one with your spouse. That means what is yours is hers and vice versa. For a marriage to be successful it takes work and open communication. My wife and I have been married 29 years and each have given the other reason to leave. But God has healed our marriage, therefore He can heal anyone's marriage regardless of the situation. Therefore we have no excuse. Prenups are garbage and opens a door for divorce which is against God's will!
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RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreem... - 7/24/2008 1:39:43 PM
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JohnCo
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If your wealthy you may want a pre-nup.
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RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreem... - 7/24/2008 2:04:38 PM
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Bridgitt
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I don't see anything wrong with pre-nuptial agreements.
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RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreem... - 7/26/2008 12:46:14 AM
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coinpurse
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I don't like the idea of a pre-nup, but Christians are getting divorced all over the place.
I have heard this question asked on Dave Ramsey and his answer was something like...if the person is worth over 1 million, its not a bad idea...only because money can attract some nuts and you might not be able to discern that...I agree with that answer.
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisCovenant
If you need a prenup than you shouldn't be marrying to begin with because that means you have doubts that the marriage can last or that the spouse-to-be can be trusted... and that's a recipe for divorce because problems you see before marriage generally just get worse.
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RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreem... - 7/26/2008 1:05:17 AM
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coinpurse
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I don't know any Christian who walked down the aisle intending to divorce! but it happens quite a bit...
I think each person should walk away with whats really theirs or with a fair agreement...but divorce is UGLY...and the nicest people can turn UGLY and might want to rob you of every penny/asset...
That might be OK with some people -losing everything and starting over.
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RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreem... - 7/26/2008 1:13:31 AM
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coinpurse
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quote:
P.S. It's also not a good idea to take out life insurance on your spouse. If anything should happen to either one of you, it sets the surviving spouse up as the first suspect. He/She had a motive to get you out of the way.
Yeah, but what if its not suspicious...if your spouse dies, dont you want the money for your children or even to cover the expenses of the person gone????
Id probably take LI on kids if I have any and not the spouse...
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RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreem... - 7/26/2008 2:30:00 AM
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ebony101
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quote:
ORIGINAL: coinpurse
Yeah, but what if its not suspicious...if your spouse dies, dont you want the money for your children or even to cover the expenses of the person gone????
Good point coinpurse.
I think maybe a will would be a good idea. Some financial institutions, e.g. credit unions, make preparations to cover funeral expenses etc.
_____________________________
'We're writing a gospel, a chapter each day,
By the things that we do & the words that we say.'
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RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreem... - 7/29/2008 2:28:12 PM
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sudden
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shadowspring
quote:
P.S. It's also not a good idea to take out life insurance on your spouse. If anything should happen to either one of you, it sets the surviving spouse up as the first suspect. He/She had a motive to get you out of the way.
I think that is ridiculous! Of course your spouse should be your beneficiary. Your spouse will be the one burying you and raising the children without you. If you can't trust them not to MURDER you then you definitely should not be married to them.  
I liked deermousie's pre-nup idea. quote:
If one of the couple wants out of the marriage or commits adultery, they have to give all their possessions and half of their future income to the ones being left. Written by an attorney in a way that can't be broken. My husband and I would both have signed that one!
quote:
I think maybe a will would be a good idea. Some financial institutions, e.g. credit unions, make preparations to cover funeral expenses etc.
A will is a good idea for every living person, regardless of marital status. But wills have to go through probate. That can take up to a year. In the meantime, life goes on and bills have to be paid. Life insurance pays upon death directly to the beneficiary and is not part of the estate of the deceased. Therefore it does not go through probate.
My income is minimal and is 100 % dedicated to my children's college education. The amount of my life insurance policy (term 10 years) will cover my contribution to the children's college and bury me.
If I don't die before this term expires (and I don't plan on it!) the next policy will only be enough to cover expected funeral expenses.
A do agree that a ridiculously large "woo-hoo-I-hit-the-jackpot" insurance policy is a bad idea, but again that is true regardless of your marital status and your beneficiary's relationship to the deceased. 
I still don't get how "life Insurance" or "A Will" could ever be considered as a substitute for a prenuptual agreement since the only time one benefits is upon the demise of the spouse. The purpose of a prenuptual agreement is to protect the assets of one who has "a few bucks" cominig into the marriage that they do not want to loose to a fair-weather love.
As an aside, off topic (as we seem to be_ If one wishes to avoid probate, place ALL your property and financial vehicles in joint ownership.
Sudden
_____________________________
I will lie down in rest and sleep and peace, for thou, O Lord, only makest me to dwell in safety.
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RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreem... - 7/29/2008 5:36:53 PM
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coinpurse
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good point...The thought of someone having LI on me caused me to panic for a second...but then i thought, yeah, if I cant trust them not to murder me!???? and then I thought well, what if the fact that im worth more dead than alive a temptation for them???? weve all heard of these good guys who murder their spouse! I might just need counseling for paranoia...
I dont like the "hey I won the lotto" type of LI either...should be money to cover necessary expenses, not money to enjoy with a new spouse or to not have to work ever again...
quote:
I think that is ridiculous! Of course your spouse should be your beneficiary. Your spouse will be the one burying you and raising the children without you. If you can't trust them not to MURDER you then you definitely should not be married to them.
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RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreem... - 7/29/2008 11:52:12 PM
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Wonder_Woman
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No. I don't think pre-nuptial agreements are something believers should engage in. It gives the clear impression that the couple doesn't expect the marriage to work. If that's the case, then premarital counseling to work through the existing doubts would be in order. If you cannot fully trust the person you are planning to marry and spend the rest of your life with, you need to rethink marriage with them.
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RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreem... - 7/30/2008 12:39:21 AM
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LaVidaBonita
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I agree with wonder woman. I think that pre-nuptial agreements only serve to separate two people that are trying to unite as one. When you get married you declare, "What's mine is yours and what's yours is mine, for better or worse, until death parts us." If you don't trust someone not to "take you to the cleaners" should you divorce, then you shouldn't be getting married in the first place. Just my $0.02
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RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreem... - 7/30/2008 5:15:56 AM
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ebony101
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I don't thik pre-nups separate two people, I think that it's a good way to protect what's your own (especially, after watching that movie ('The perfect Murder'). In these contemporary times, I think anyone who goes into marriage with an "all's right in my world" attitude is living with their head in the clouds.
Think about this for a moment: suppose you draw up a pre-nup and your spouse refuses to sign it ... it would give me a moment's pause. Why not? If we are so in love then a pre-nup shouldn't decrease or increase our love should it?
But then I tend to be a radical thinker - I'm not going to join our bank accounts to have one joint account either.
_____________________________
'We're writing a gospel, a chapter each day,
By the things that we do & the words that we say.'
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RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreem... - 7/30/2008 4:46:30 PM
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p.progress
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: YZGUY
Personally, I can't think of any situation off hand that it would be OK. My thought is that if there is a pre-nuptial, you are already thinking that you will not be together "for richer & poorer and in sickness & in health til death do you part." Divorce would be seen as more casual and marriage as more of an arrangement or contract (limited time).
Since our marriage is a greater picture of Christ & the church, I could not imagine Christ approaching His marriage with the church as something that will dissolve, but in all things, He would reconcile.
Amen! It is more of the world seeping into the church....I hate it!
Some years ago my first reaction to the idea of a 'prenuptial agreement' was to reject it outright, assuming the all prenupts were merely selfishly motivated by the one with the most material goods to lose. I have come to see that there is much more to this concept than first meets the eye.
My first reaction was just that, a reaction; not a response. I did not stop to examine whether or not the scriptures were being violated by such a concept, I assumed they were. I reacted to what I THOUGHT all that a 'prenupt' meant or could possibly mean.
Now I see it this way:
If I were to consider obtaining a legal statis as a 'married' individual; in order to receive the 'legal benefits' afforded those who do so. I would want it to be augmented to reflect what I now consider to be in conformity to what the scripture's paint are the rights and responsibilities of a man who takes a wife for life and a woman who is taken to wife by him.
If I took a woman to wife, in a 'legal' sense - or even not so; but my intention was to keep her as my wife for life, as the scriptures intend it to be between a man and his Lawful (God's Law here) wife; THEN I would in either case NOT enter into such an arrangement WITHOUT FIRST having established and put into effect what has been referred to as a 'Prenuptial Agreement'.
But the kind I am speaking of here, takes into account these things:
I would never make any kind of 'vows' before God or witnesses, whether I had a ceremony or not before I took her to be my wife. Contrary to traditions and beliefs about this, 'taking vows' is not a prerequisite God requires of any, in order for him to make 'the twain' 'one-flesh'. It is a tradition that stems from that which was already understood to be involved when a man took a wife, after the woman's father "gave" his daughter to the man to become his wife. God does not make two "one-flesh" or establish and sanctify the sexual relationship between a man and a woman, UNLESS and UNTIL they have entered into this relationship in accordance with HIS OWN divine PREREQUISITES. Which means, they must be free to become man and wife, which requires of them these things: to either never have been made 'one-flesh' by him (God) beforehand or else their lawful (God's law) spouse is literally-and-physically dead; it requires the father or guardian of the [virgin] daughter or [non-vigin] daughter (woman) to be sincerely willing to "give" his daughter to an exceptable suiter in his sight; and that there are no hidden factors or history with respect to her claimed virtue, or lack thereof (something that she must be straightforward and honest about regarding her past); that the man is getting what is infact 'the case' with regard to her past; and then the man when he takes her and they consumate their union, then she becomes his wife indeed. In my opinion, that's the receipe the Scriptures present before the two can establish a sanctified oneflesh union, and become one-flesh. Of course the man is to be honest about his claims and history as well).
In this framework I would seek for myself or counsel others to put in place a prenuptial arrangement and agreement that lays out the following and frames the agreement accordingly:
What is the station/position of each party in this relationship: that of the man (husband) and that of the wife (the woman). And what this means, in light of all that the revelation of God reveals concerning this relationship and the respective roles, responsibilities and/or rights God established within this relationship. And what are the 'goals' of God, in the establishment of the "one-flesh" union and relationship of a man and his wife. Also, stating what scripture presents is the reality of the predicament and or consequences that faces one or the other in the event that their spouse falls short of that which God holds each accountable before him to fulfill in their relationship as man and wife to each other. Also, what are the responsibilities and/or 'rights' scripture presents one or the other may or may not have in lieu of the failure of the other to fulfill their duties and responsibilities before God to their spouse. And what are the same if any, in the event that one or the other: one (1), fails to remain physically and emotionally faithful to the other in one event, or via a train of events; and secondly (2), what are the responsibilities and/or 'rights' scripture presents one or the other may or may not have in lieu of the fact that their spouse seeks and does indeed severs their connection with the other - not merely emotionally but physically and geographically. Too complicated perhaps here to read, but I'm writing to finish, and not proofread so much.
It is my belief that if I as a husband apart from discovering something my wife had hidden from me of her past, that is too defiling in my mind to overcome the repulsion of and sense of being betrayed and lied to by her; if I for reasons other than this, were to desire and then literally 'put' her 'away' as my wife: I believe that I am then obligated to support her; which would include whatever children I had with her, if I sought to reject as well (I cannot imagine such a thing, but for the sake of clarifying my beliefs I must express this). But 'my' prenupt would not permit such treachery.
But if my wife, who I am either through love or merely out of sheer duty to God, am willing to remain with her; if she herself seeks to "depart" and does so; I have no obligation to support financially or otherwise - not in her desertion, abandonment and rebellion against me (and hers toward God) or our children (if any). Again, my prenupt would not 'permit' this, but and if she did...what justice is there in her being able to expect and receive from the one she abandons, support for her rebellion and abandonment?
A prenuptial in my mind would not be right before God or man if it were framed and put into force to grant 'me' (or my wife) legal immunity and protection from suffering the consequences of my own selfish desires. If a man accepts the benefits afforded him by God in taking a wife (as was previously described), then he before God and man has obligated himself to fulfill the duties God has enjoined upon him when he accepted being made "one-flesh" by God with his wife.
It is God's laws, his commandments, his precepts, his instructions concerning the relationship he has ordained and established between a man and a woman in the husband and wife relationship that we are to be concerned about fulfilling - not as a vow, but our duty before God is to just obey him and that means the ordinances of God with respect to this relationship.
Vows are not to be made by us, if Matt.5.33-37; Jms.5.12 mean what they appear to mean. They are not necessary with respect to taking a wife (netering into the one-flesh union) anyway, as whether or not a man or the woman 'make vows' or 'take their wedding vows', they are just by accepting or entering into this relationship, obliged in the sight of God to do all that HE COMMANDS of the husband and the wife to fulfill before him towards their wife and/or husband.
THE LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY UNDER PRESENT CIVIL LAW
It is this fact, and reflection upon this fact, in light of observing with great shock and grief the wholesale abandonment of responsibility that society through civil law, fails to hold accountable such people for their ungodly degradation of this divinely instituted relationship, that has lead me to consider the real and pressing need to safeguard not merely oneself from such selfserving men and women that abuse the meaning of the husband and wife relationship, but even society itself, from the present civil laws that do the same and make it possible for such people to 'get away with' and pollute the husband and wife relationship.
The lack of accountablility we see under present day civil law and the injustice that prevails as well towards either the husband or wife (and certainly the children) who has been forced to endure the pain of rejection, desertion and abandonment of their once lawful (God's Law) spouse; and the ease in which they may go and join in an unholy alliance with and "marry another" with little or no consequence sufficient to fit the degree of destructive force that their betrayal has left in their wake; is a crime before God to be sure - BUT WHERE is this being heralded and WHO is heralding this to the ears of this lost generation?
ANOTHER 'SILENT SCREAM'
Several decades ago, a movie was made about the horrific death that preborn children endure at the hands of the medical doctors that do this sort of thing, it was and is called 'The Silent Scream'. The thing about it that I wish to use to paint a picture is the fact that you cannot hear the little baby screaming as he or she is being literally torn apart in their mother's womb. To me this is unfathomable, that men and women could do such a mosterous act - but it is taking place as we speak. I see that while the epidemic that we call divorce and remarriage today is certainly discernable statistic wise and we meet those who have been affected by this tragady. There is nevertheless an inaudible carnage that takes place in the hearts and minds of those torn to shreds by the loss of their spouse and perhaps the children that they now are forbidden to be able to see and have normal interchanges with them as they did once before in their daily life - day after day and night after night. The agony that accompanies those that are forced to and have to suffer the dissolvement of their world as they knew it, is no less a silent scream in many respects as well.
I have written somewhat of a long post, I hope not too long that it keeps the reader from grasping and thinking about what I am saying here.
I would not hesitate to counsel anyone to think very soberly about entering into a relationship with a potential wife or husband, without becoming fully informed about the realities that will face them, IF they should encounter some serious struggles in their marrriage relationship in the future.
In time past, those who did face such things were 'forced' to work things out, or else concentrate on their own personal duties in their marraige, while enduring grief in a patient and longsuffering manner towards their mate. In that divorce was not an option many either could or even dared to consider. Not merely due to the civil laws that set limits to and restricted one from being able to sever their legal bonds to their spouse (set within the contractual aspects of the marriage licence); nor because of the social stimatization we hear was upon the divorcee; nor even due to the financial ramifications that would face such, especially the deserting or deserted wife. There was an understanding underneath all this that helped produce the legal and the social 'walls' against 'easy divorce'. The cultural level of reprobation was minor in comparisence (my opinion) and so far from where it is now, that even the world of former times was more sensitive and held to 'stricter' standards about these things than the average professing Christian of these latter generations does! We have come along way, downward and away from the will of God in these things. The 'marriage contract' is hardly that. The concept of the 'No Fault Divorce' has erroded much of what once kept the carnality of man in closer check.
So now, what to do? I don't think that the Pre-Nuptial agreement is the solution, but can be used as a means to do and protect to some degree that which the civil marriage contract served to do once upon a time.
I would love to see the professing Church, those men who claim to be its 'leaders' and 'guardians', stand up and be counted; and come up with a scriptural-solid statement of sorts that documents what God requires of husbands and wives (in total); and both establishes and warns not only of the divine consequences of their actions when they seek to abandon what they have obligated themselves to, by becoming "one-flesh" with their spouse; but warns and establishes legal consequences for their unjust actions towards their spouse, their children and the society as a whole - and so sever that they would not think to "put asunder" what God has joined together.
This would have to be a 'prenuptial agreement' of some sort, since the civil requirements and obligations connected with the modern day 'marriage certificate' (license) means next to nothing and does little to nothing to protect anyone, including society from the wicked who make a mockery of God's laws and ways regarding the one-flesh union of a man and wife relationship.
< Message edited by p.progress -- 7/30/2008 5:16:19 PM >
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RE: Should some Chrisitians consider pre-nuptial agreem... - 7/31/2008 2:54:52 PM
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ChelaW
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IMHO, I would not get a pre-nup, no matter what the financial circumstances.
To me, as a Christian, you should have faith that your marriage will last. And getting a prenup would not be acting in faith. Remember, faith without works is dead (James 2:14-26).
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