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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/19/2008 12:17:58 PM
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LCannon
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Regardless of the level of Ham's behavior('Did you see Dad drunk and naked?'<teehee>)the other brothers were circumspect and covered Noah's his vulnerability until he sobered up and proper apology or scarifice. Rather then pointing out the obvious(and often petty)indiscretion love hopes for better and uplifting personal growth.
< Message edited by LCannon -- 7/19/2008 2:06:01 PM >
_____________________________
"Love as the Bible defines it is only perceptible through action." -Elisabeth Elliot-
"Stop saying 'we love' when our actions show little evidence in practice." -1 John 3:18-
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/19/2008 1:25:09 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
I didn't realise that there is a text which promotes this theme likewise:
Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? (Romans 2:4)
Oh, Little_1, I love that scripture and I quote it over and over and over again. This verse speaks of the God Who is so foreign, unknown by many. Yes, it is the riches of His kindness and forbearance and patience that leads us to repentance! Hallelujah! This is God. Praise Him!
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/19/2008 1:35:20 PM
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Liveloved
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The best illustration of Romans 2:4 is Jesus. He lived out this kindness to us and showed us how it is to be done.
The adulterous woman is a good example. The men who brought her to Jesus were like Ham and like satan---accusers, belittling, holding themselves above and apart.
But Jesus bent down. I love it. He got down, came down to her level, the level we are ALL on. And He wrote in the dirt. Was He drawing His image on this woman in the dirt, reminding us of Whose we are? Jesus was not repelled by dirt. Sinful men are.
Jesus came down, loved this woman caught in adultery and covered her sin. And the mockers, the proud ones, the accusers left---
He dealt with her sin. He spoke to her sin. BUT NOT BEFORE HE LOVED HER WITH GREAT KINDNESS AND COMPASSION and turned the accusers away. That is the kindness that leads to repentance.
That is Jesus. Don't you just love Him?
I do.
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/19/2008 7:50:01 PM
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Giulia
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From: Giulia
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quote:
I thought I did. I'm not real familiar with the OT teachings. I sure wanted to know if Noah was raped, so I started searching it out. Nothing super spiritual about it. My response was based on the Matthew Henry commentary. I just thought it might help others too. [/quote
I wasn't talking to you, just about this thread in general. Like why refer to OT when it is a current issue and all you need to say is- should we cover each other's sins rather than gloating over them. Simple, see?
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Captured by His love. Justified by His grace.
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/21/2008 10:54:18 PM
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Liveloved
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I'd still love to hear how others live this out in their relationships. Any willing to share how you cover the nakedness of others?
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/22/2008 8:23:13 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1860
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quote:
Any willing to share how you cover the nakedness of others?
This brings to mind many thoughts, LL. Some I believe to be dangerous for ours selves and others.
Covering another's sin:
Keeps it hidden-deception
allows it to continue-condoning
keeps people sick-not laying before the Lord to heal
We can not hide our sin from God-ever. We can hide it from people and that is deceptive. We can ever hide it from ourselves and that is delusion.
If we are supposed to cover the sin, it would seem that Matthew 18 is useless. Sin with be exposed whether we try to cover it or not.
We don't have the power to cover it, only to hide it and that for just a short time. Jesus already covered our sins, it is now up to us to lay them before Him.
Hbr 4:13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
Just some extra thoughts I had.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/22/2008 10:51:35 AM
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Little_1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Any willing to share how you cover the nakedness of others?
This brings to mind many thoughts, LL. Some I believe to be dangerous for ours selves and others.
Covering another's sin:
Keeps it hidden-deception
allows it to continue-condoning
keeps people sick-not laying before the Lord to heal
I don't think this is the covering which the Bible has in mind here dd. I hope I can explain this well enough:
I think the Word of God teaches that where possible, we should cover anothers sin not so as to hide it from God (because as you alreay point out God knows all things and sin cannot be hidden from Him) and not so as to pretend it didn't happed (which again as you point out would not help the person who did wrong) but merely to hide it from others. Others don't need to know about a brother or sister's sin - it is enough that God and the brother/sister and the one who helps 'cover' know and hopefully the kindness shown to the brother/sister will lead them to repentance.
_____________________________
"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer."
ROMANS 12:12
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/22/2008 11:09:30 AM
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semperfidelis
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When I think of Love covering the nakedness of another, I generally don't think of Genesis, but of Matt 25.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
There is a story of a devout monk that was well loved in a town. One day a woman came to that town that stayed in town for several days. After leaving for a year, she came back and demanded justice, claiming that she gave birth to the monk's child -- a boy. The town was shocked and hurt by the accusations. The monk knew he had not sinned and may have even known who the true father was, but said nothing in his own defence. After receiving promise of care for the child, the woman left. The monk gave up his vows and took the child in. His reputation now scorned and his vows apparently broken, he picked up a trade and worked hard raising the child. Later when the boy was older, she came back and revealed that the monk was not the father and that she wanted the child back. She had had a one-night stand with someone in the town, but was not the monk. When asked why he did not defend himself, the monk replied, "The boy needed a father, and I trusted God for my righteousness."
_____________________________
The man in the arena....
If I rise and succeed, it's because His hand has lifted me.
I may not have 3 greek letters but I have 2 latin words: SEMPER FIDELIS (no, I'm not a marine, but we like the same things)
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/22/2008 11:40:56 AM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1511
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quote:
This brings to mind many thoughts, LL. Some I believe to be dangerous for ours selves and others.
Covering another's sin:
Keeps it hidden-deception
allows it to continue-condoning
keeps people sick-not laying before the Lord to heal
We can not hide our sin from God-ever. We can hide it from people and that is deceptive. We can ever hide it from ourselves and that is delusion.
If we are supposed to cover the sin, it would seem that Matthew 18 is useless. Sin with be exposed whether we try to cover it or not.
We don't have the power to cover it, only to hide it and that for just a short time. Jesus already covered our sins, it is now up to us to lay them before Him.
Hbr 4:13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
Just some extra thoughts I had.
DD,
While I do understand what you are thinking and I've had the same thoughts, I do not think that is what God is talking about when He speaks of covering.
James 5:19-20 says, "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins."
Proverbs 10:12 says, "Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all transgressions."
And I Peter 4:8 says, "Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins."
This covering is not deceitful, condoning or enabling. It is helping. God calls it love. So I think we need to understand it as God understands it. And I am not saying I do---but I want to. That's part of why I started this discussion.
Anyway, you can let me know your further thoughts.  LL
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/22/2008 2:40:16 PM
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mvic
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I think we should be careful when "covering" the sins of others.
In the UK 2 women are killed every week by their partners/husbands.
How many others are beaten and abused and their partners' sins covered through "love"?
How many children are physically and mentally abused and the sins of the abusers covered by the family?
How many sins did the Church cover over the years?
There's currently an increase of knife crimes in the UK, many resulting in the death of the victim. Often the police cannot find witnesses through fear of repercussions; or because witnesses don't want to be involved.
By covering others' sins are you not also guilty of the sin they have committed?
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MEI VITA INDICO CHRISTUS
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/22/2008 3:05:15 PM
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URForgiven
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There needs to be a distinction made, as DD pointed out earlier, that there is a major difference between "covering" another's sin and "covering up" another's sin.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/22/2008 4:26:36 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1860
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quote:
Others don't need to know about a brother or sister's sin
Why not? What if the experience of a certain sin can help another? What if someone is struggling with a sin, you have already laid before God and can use Godly counsel?
I understand about sounding it with a trumpet for the sole humiliation of another, that's not what I am referring too.
I had another thought LL:
Forgiveness.
I went a reread the passage and I don't see forgiveness for Ham. He was cursed. So how does that play into this? I see only a negative , severely negative consequence for Ham's sin. I also see the negative consequence for Noah's sin too-shame and humiliation. Just wondering about the forgiveness part. Do you have any ideas?
BTW, I love this discussion!!!!!!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/22/2008 5:58:21 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
There needs to be a distinction made, as DD pointed out earlier, that there is a major difference between "covering" another's sin and "covering up" another's sin.
Absolutely, URForgiven. I don't know if there are biblical references using the terms 'covering up'. The references I have found are all in reference to covering as a loving, protective, godly act. Perhaps this is another example of where our current cultural use and understanding of a word is misleading us in terms of what God is truly saying.
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/22/2008 6:14:01 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
quote:
Others don't need to know about a brother or sister's sin
Or perhaps a better way of looking at it is who has the right/authority to share re: someone else's sin? It certainly appears scriptural that going to the individual you think is in sin and sharing with the individual is the first step and this step is often overlooked. I have watched as church members/leaders point at others in the church from afar and comment on their behavior/actions. My response is "it would be best to get to know the individuals involved and find out firsthand if what you are saying is true". And then I refer them to Joshua 22. Yes, we love to point out sin and respond to sin in others. But it takes love to go to them and come along side them and find out what is going on. And as the story in Joshua 22 tells us, often what we think is wrong is not. God has another way for us to handle situations like this. If we would only listen and do it His way.
Why not? What if the experience of a certain sin can help another? What if someone is struggling with a sin, you have already laid before God and can use Godly counsel?
I understand about sounding it with a trumpet for the sole humiliation of another, that's not what I am referring too.
I had another thought LL:
Forgiveness.
I went a reread the passage and I don't see forgiveness for Ham. He was cursed. So how does that play into this? I see only a negative , severely negative consequence for Ham's sin. I also see the negative consequence for Noah's sin too-shame and humiliation. Just wondering about the forgiveness part. Do you have any ideas?
The Believer's Bible Commentary has a lengthy discussion of this which I won't attempt to repeat and don't know how to include. Who the curse was on is questioned. It is quite complex and I'm not sure how relevant to this discussion.
I guess I do not question the forgiveness aspect. God knows the hearts of those involved so I trust Him to be making right decisions, KWIM? I don't mean that to sound 'smart'. But for me, this story is for me to learn about what it means to cover the sins of another, such as Jesus did for me. So that is my emphasis. Sorry I'm no help with the question you're asking. Perhaps someone else can offer some insights. LL
< Message edited by Liveloved -- 7/23/2008 5:18:07 AM >
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/23/2008 12:32:43 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 857
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: semperfidelis
When I think of Love covering the nakedness of another, I generally don't think of Genesis, but of Matt 25.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
There is a story of a devout monk that was well loved in a town. One day a woman came to that town that stayed in town for several days. After leaving for a year, she came back and demanded justice, claiming that she gave birth to the monk's child -- a boy. The town was shocked and hurt by the accusations. The monk knew he had not sinned and may have even known who the true father was, but said nothing in his own defence. After receiving promise of care for the child, the woman left. The monk gave up his vows and took the child in. His reputation now scorned and his vows apparently broken, he picked up a trade and worked hard raising the child. Later when the boy was older, she came back and revealed that the monk was not the father and that she wanted the child back. She had had a one-night stand with someone in the town, but was not the monk. When asked why he did not defend himself, the monk replied, "The boy needed a father, and I trusted God for my righteousness."
"The boy needed a father, and I trusted God for my righteousness." Beautiful, just beautiful. Thanks semperfidelis for sharing this story.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/23/2008 5:22:59 AM
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Liveloved
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Ditto to what URForgiven says. I had missed your response in the midst of the discussion, semperfidelis. But now I'm glad I've seen and read what you shared. Thanks!
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/25/2008 8:24:22 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
I've been thinking about this thread too and went back and re-read the passage and don't think you can use it in a positive way. Ham's generation was cursed and if you look them up you'll find that they were bad people.
I guess I don't see this "covering" as good in this passage.
Sorry.
You're right that Ham (or Canaan) was cursed. But the brothers who covered their father were definitely blessed. This covering is a picture of what Christ has done for us---and apart from 'covering' as lived out by Jesus, we would be hopeless. I guess if you don't 'see' it this way, you can ask others or check commentaries and let us know what you find out.
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/27/2008 8:06:15 AM
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buckifn
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Nakedness is not sin and there is no scripture basis for anyone to say we are to cover the sin we, or anyone else commits.
the op reference to Noah and his son's deals with a matter of respect and honor not a son trying to atone for the sin of a father.
There is absolutely nothing we can do to cover for another person's sin.
Whether it is my sin or someone else's I deal with it the same- give it to God in prayer .
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/27/2008 10:08:20 AM
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kingdust
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quote:
ORIGINAL: buckifn
Nakedness is not sin and there is no scripture basis for anyone to say we are to cover the sin we, or anyone else commits.
Nakedness may be no sin, but what if your nakedness offends others or helps others sin if you are female?
Are you innocent since you have no intention to sin or help others sin?
According to the Bible, even God covered the nakedness of Adam and Eve, with the bloody skin of an innocent animal, not to mention the desperate desire of the naked person to cover the naked self.
In order to cover the nakedness, we need to understand what 'nakedness' is about that needs to be covered or wishes to be covered.
Spiritually or physically, we need to cover our nakedness.
What is the nakedness?
quote:
the op reference to Noah and his son's deals with a matter of respect and honor not a son trying to atone for the sin of a father.
There is absolutely nothing we can do to cover for another person's sin.
No sinner can atone for the sins of other sinners no doubt, but a forgiven sinner can pull out a cover of grace or mercy or understanding or things like that, to cover other fella sinners.
quote:
Whether it is my sin or someone else's I deal with it the same- give it to God in prayer .
Prayer cover- that is the best cover to pull out to cover the fella, fallen, a lot less than angels exposed of their naked self whatever that is.
Would you cover your own or others nakedness with Fig tree leaf of self effort, opinion, value judgment, reasoning, or feeling that seems right to your own eyes, or seek His cover?
We sure like to do like Ham with his raw and naked perspective, that is, our naked first thoughts, opinions, or feelings.
To cloth our self with consideration cover first takes time and much too slow for our jumpy thoughts and deeds- they are so raw and naked, lacking a lot of things, figuratively speaking.
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I am an English as Second Language person and love corrections, kind or unkind, positive or negative, with love or without love, which I am grateful of. Just GIVE!
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 7/27/2008 12:17:17 PM
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stampinlady
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quote:
the op reference to Noah and his son's deals with a matter of respect and honor not a son trying to atone for the sin of a father.
Amen. Adding more to this is adding to scriputre and that's a no no.
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Deb
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I jumped in to explore this thought with you because it is very real to the circle of friends that I have. Maybe my attempts at using this as applicable to life was inappropriate. Maybe I see too deeply into things when another wants to focus solely on one aspect in particular. IOW, I don't intentionally mean to distract. Again, If I have offended, my sincerest apologies.
