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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/31/2009 6:05:07 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Antinomianism was a heresy which postulated Christians did not have to lead a moral life. It still is a heresy, IMO... So what happens when these Christians elected sovereignly by God (I noticed you kinda skipped over that part) without a single condition on their behalf, in fact "drawn irresistibly by grace", do not lead a moral life? What happens then? Or does the same "irresistible grace" just make them automatically lead a moral life so as to avoid antinomianism?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/31/2009 7:40:45 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1770
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Reba
IMHO what is show here is not love to others. Many posts show how often you lie to yourself, while lieing to others. Perfect folks have done so much disservice to the Church over the years. Growing up in churches i have had the misfortune to many times to met you. Enjoy your perfection here on earth. Some times the voices of todays Christianity are as ugly as halloween.
Do you hear yourself, Reba? No one's angry but you, sister. We still love each other, even though our debates lack fluffy romance. Don't let the sun set on your anger, my friend.
In Christ,
ZG
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/31/2009 7:47:37 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1770
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Antinomianism was a heresy which postulated Christians did not have to lead a moral life. It still is a heresy, IMO... So what happens when these Christians elected sovereignly by God (I noticed you kinda skipped over that part) without a single condition on their behalf, in fact "drawn irresistibly by grace", do not lead a moral life? What happens then? Or does the same "irresistible grace" just make them automatically lead a moral life so as to avoid antinomianism?
And if the latter is true, then those who DO live a sinful life can not possibly be the elect, and since they have no choice in their election (because they are totally depraved, atonement is limited, and grace is irresistibly withheld) then in the end they did only what they possibly could do--SIN!
It's an endless cycle that eventually ends up in the same place, just to circumnavigate irrationality and un-Biblical teaching one more time.
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/31/2009 7:54:29 PM
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drmark
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quote:
It's an endless cycle that eventually ends up in the same place, just to circumnavigate irrationality and un-Biblical teaching one more time. Yup, a bankrupt doctrinal system for sure. It amazes me how many posting on this thread really don't believe what they think they believe... 
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/31/2009 8:04:42 PM
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Reba
Posts: 665
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reba
IMHO what is show here is not love to others. Many posts show how often you lie to yourself, while lieing to others. Perfect folks have done so much disservice to the Church over the years. Growing up in churches i have had the misfortune to many times to met you. Enjoy your perfection here on earth. Some times the voices of todays Christianity are as ugly as halloween.
Do you hear yourself, Reba? No one's angry but you, sister. We still love each other, even though our debates lack fluffy romance. Don't let the sun set on your anger, my friend.
In Christ,
ZG
Yes i hear and toned down the post . i fully thought i might be sent to "time out". I have seen, heard, felt, etc. the likes of drmark type, for many years. Watched Dad anguish in prayer for his kind. Heard Mom crying over the hurts. The ones who believe they are perfect are scary. No one has to agree with me i will believe what i see.
Deu 1:16 And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.
I feel i should almost say thank you EV1 i have never been that close to being called FLUFFY! 
_____________________________
Chapter and verse are posted so all may look up the context.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/31/2009 8:07:19 PM
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Reba
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
The teachings of Reformed Theology are the antithesis to antinomianism. Samson, would you care to correct my understanding of the teachings of total depravity and unconditional election? How does a totally depraved person who has no ability to avoid sinning ever want or need to change since her/his salvation is completely unrelated to anything s/he could ever do? Sounds like you just keep on sinning and trust God to elect whomever He pleases!
Why not trust God? Should i trust myself? Again perfect man is the center.
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Chapter and verse are posted so all may look up the context.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/31/2009 8:28:38 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Why not trust God? Should i trust myself? Again perfect man is the center. You're not reading a word I'm typing, Reba. What about "BY THE GRACE OF GOD AND THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT" do you not understand? Christian perfection is the exact opposite of putting man in the center. Only God can make us perfect, Reba, and the only reason we are perfect is to honor God! Please hear what I'm saying.
quote:
I have seen, heard, felt, etc. the likes of drmark type, for many years. Reba, I don't know you (or your parents) from Adam's housecat. So I'm sure you don't know me, either. With all the sanctified love Christ has given me, I want to say that I'm truly sorry that you and your family have run into "types" of Christians who flaunt their hypocritical legalism and think they are acting holy and righteous. But your unfortunate experiences have NOTHING to do with me and more importantly, they have NOTHING to do with the truth of God's Word.
I do NOT "believe I am perfect" because of anything I have done in the past, am doing now, or will ever do in the future. I am perfect solely because the grace of God has made me that way by filling my heart with the Love of Christ. But what I do with God's Love and Power is still up to me (by His grace), so I ask you to hold me accountable for using them in a manner worthy of Christ's calling and not in the manner which has offended you and your folks in the past. Thank you, Reba, for helping me to grow in grace!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/31/2009 9:45:48 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1770
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Reba
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reba
IMHO what is show here is not love to others. Many posts show how often you lie to yourself, while lieing to others. Perfect folks have done so much disservice to the Church over the years. Growing up in churches i have had the misfortune to many times to met you. Enjoy your perfection here on earth. Some times the voices of todays Christianity are as ugly as halloween.
Do you hear yourself, Reba? No one's angry but you, sister. We still love each other, even though our debates lack fluffy romance. Don't let the sun set on your anger, my friend.
In Christ,
ZG
Yes i hear and toned down the post . i fully thought i might be sent to "time out". I have seen, heard, felt, etc. the likes of drmark type, for many years. Watched Dad anguish in prayer for his kind. Heard Mom crying over the hurts. The ones who believe they are perfect are scary. No one has to agree with me i will believe what i see.
Deu 1:16 And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.
I feel i should almost say thank you EV1 i have never been that close to being called FLUFFY!
In drmark's defense, he's never ever claimed to be perfect. There is a vast difference between claiming the Biblical truth of being able to live sinlessly ONLY with the help of Christ, and claiming that one is absolutely and completely perfected. Actually, he claims just the opposite, as do I.
And I'm not sure what your parents dealt with, but I have a hunch that they fought against a more hyper-legalistic type, or even Antinomianism....both of which are heretical at best, and are wars that you and drmark fight alongside each other daily.
He claims the power of Christ, Reba. Only through Christ's power can ANYONE life righteously, and I think you can agree. It doesn't take an ounce of Christ's power to fail because one believes that it is inevitable.
So set a goal to live sinlessly, even if for a fraction of time, and pursue that goal with all your heart, soul, and strength, because no sane individual would set a goal that they believe they will inevitably fail. If you do fail to live perfectly as God has commanded, do not think for a moment to excuse your failure because you believe it was inevitable. Set the goal to be perfect (as God has commanded), pursue that goal, and if you allow the Holy Spirit to guide you, you will accomplish that goal when you die, sister. If there's no possible way that you can accomplish that goal, then Christ's power is useless.
In Christ,
ZG
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/31/2009 11:12:17 PM
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Reba
Posts: 665
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quote:
Sounds like you just keep on sinning and trust God to elect whomever He pleases!
quote:
You're not reading a word I'm typing, Reba. What about "BY THE GRACE OF GOD AND THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT" do you not understand? Christian perfection is the exact opposite of putting man in the center. Only God can make us perfect, Reba, and the only reason we are perfect is to honor God! Please hear what I'm saying.
A couple of your quotes mark. the one over weighs the other. Many of your posts are like the 2 above. You mock folks for trusting God. then claim perfection through His power. Even in your claim of perfection above you say you are perfect to honor God. God says this....
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
and others
Tell ya what i will just put you on block then i will not distract the thread.
< Message edited by Reba -- 10/31/2009 11:25:33 PM >
_____________________________
Chapter and verse are posted so all may look up the context.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/31/2009 11:19:59 PM
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Reba
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Ev1 a small part of your post... quote:
If there's no possible way that you can accomplish that goal, then Christ's power is useless.
Here is where we differ. NOTHING i do or dont do can render the power of Christ useless. Again you are limiting God to the whim/will of man.
I believe He has/will accomplish His will with His power regardless of what ever man does.
_____________________________
Chapter and verse are posted so all may look up the context.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/31/2009 11:24:04 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Tell what i will just put you on block then i will not distract the thread. You may do what God leads you to, Reba. I have no desire to cause anyone to stumble. 
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 1:10:27 AM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1770
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Reba
Ev1 a small part of your post... quote:
If there's no possible way that you can accomplish that goal, then Christ's power is useless.
Here is where we differ. NOTHING i do or dont do can render the power of Christ useless. Again you are limiting God to the whim/will of man.
I believe He has/will accomplish His will with His power regardless of what ever man does.
I don't think you quite understand me, Reba. If it is IMPOSSIBLE (let that word sink in for a moment) for you to stop sinning, then even the power of Christ is useless. Why? Because you just said that it was IMPOSSIBLE. Impossible simply means "not at all possible"--meaning even with Christ's power it is not possible, hence your declaration of it being impossible. Therefore, Christ's power would be weaker than the power of sin in your life, Reba.
Obviously, though, this is not true if you are a Christian. And this is the only point drmark (and I for that matter) is trying to make. He's not trying to brag about his perfection, flaunt his perfection, or even elevate himself to a higher level than you. He's simply trying to show you the truth of Christ's power in one's life to help that person live completely without sin. And if it is impossible to live without sin, then it is also impossible for Christ to help you stop sinning. They are both, in and of themselves, equally codependent statements.
And placing drmark on block will solve nothing but make things much more confusing for everyone (and disallowing you from seeing his posts, causing misunderstandings in the future). If putting him on block will apparently help you "not distract the thread", then I think it speaks more of a self-control issue on your part than an arrogant and prideful agenda on his part. We are all commanded to come together in love and unity, and although we all are very passionate of certain doctrines opposing to each others, placing one on block will solve nothing.
God bless you, Reba, in your search for truth.
In Christ,
ZG
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 5:24:32 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1672
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Since we are growing to be more like Christ every day, we obviously are not totally like Christ who embodies sinless perfection. We were (past tense) not "totally like Christ" before He perfected our hearts in love. Can you share one thing that Jesus did that we cannot do today, by God's grace and power? Why can't a Christian obey God with His grace and power? I thought that's what Jesus did and we have the mind of Christ.
There is nothing that Christ did morally that we cannot do. The problem is our minds are not totally renewed, all of us have false views of what will make us happy, fulfilled and give us the most pleasure. All of us are in the need to grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.
quote:
quote:
Since growing to be more like Christ show us that we are not perfect as of yet, show me how someone can be perfect and imperfect at the same time. You (and most posting here) continue to confuse perfection of heart with completed maturity of life. If a small green apple is beautifully round, blemish-free, and without any disease early in the season, then we would call it perfect. But it still tastes sour until that perfect immature green apple has matured into a sweet, fully ripened red apple. That's how Christian perfection should be viewed. God makes us perfect, holy, righteous, pure, and blemish-free but we must still continue to grow in grace toward maturity as He empowers us day by day.
The problem with this sort of thinking is that it is not in line with reality. When a Christian matures, he is maturing to become more like Christ. Not being like Christ is not loving like Christ, which is sin.
quote:
quote:
How would you define imperfections? When are imperfections not sin? Are you saying that God created us to have imperfections? If not, are they not sin? What of the command that Jesus Christ gave us to be perfect? Pretty much like any good Wesleyan/Holiness theologian. We are accountable for willful sinning against the known law of God. We are not accountable for imperfections due to physical/mental/emotional frailty while living in this fallen world. The Blood of Christ covers these unintentional and unavoidable transgressions when we are initially saved, although several passages speak to ongoing confession and humility for ongoing "sins of ignorance".
Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that a Christian is not accountable for his sin because it is caused by "imperfections due to physical/mental/emotional frailty? Are you saying that not loving perfectly as God requires is not “willful sinning against the know law of God?”
quote:
Of course God did not create us to have imperfections. They are obviously a result of the Fall and Curse. That is why Matt 5:48 must refer to attitude, intentions, and willful choices to define "perfect". Surely you don't think that Jesus never stubbed His toe, got sick, committed an arithmetic mistake, stuttered in speech, or other such imperfections of life! If the Son of God can be imperfect in these ways, then surely I can be Christlike as well...
The imperfections of not being like God have nothing to do with stubbed toes, sickness or any other amoral things. The imperfections of not being perfect as God is perfect are moral in nature.
You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:43-48 NASB95)
The Lord Jesus Christ is teaching that which is unknown to those listening; He is raising the bar of that which is morally right. Our natural inclination is to hate our enemies, but Jesus says we are to love enemies and pray for those who persecute us. It is natural for us to love those who love us and greet only those we know. God is calling us to more – to be perfect, which is to love as God loves. Maturing in Christ has to do with becoming more like God in our attitudes, affections, thoughts and actions. Anything that swerves from perfect love is sin. If we are growing to become more like Christ we are growing less like sinful man.
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quote:
I am interested to know why you think the biblical doctrines of total depravity and unconditional election “interfere significantly with a ny true application of love and grace.” Then please explain them differently to me, SH. I have read that "total depravity" means that every person is 100% totally wicked in everything they think, do, and say. I have read that "unconditional election" means that God continues to save us regardless of anything we totally depraved people think, do, and say. Thus, we cannot possibly show real love to anyone and God has no real grace to give since He cannot possibly hold anyone accountable for their mandatory lack of love.
Among other things you have a wrong concept of accountability and the children of God's ability to love.
God holds all unbelievers accountable for their lack of love for God and others. There is no excuse for the truth suppressing attitudes, affections and actions of the unrighteous. Total depravity is no excuse in God's eyes, it is self inflicted (see Rom 1).
The elect can love because the love of God has been shed abroad in his heart; they are born again. To the extent that a Christian knows and trusts the love of God in Christ is the extent he is free to love. Believers are justified by faith, therefore, there lack of love is not counted against them. The true child of God desires to love and is grieved when he does not. In other words, a true child of God does not fall into antinomianism.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 7:26:40 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2807
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
In drmark's defense, he's never ever claimed to be perfect.
Excuse me, but he said , "Amen, Reba! We "are perfect" because Christ has made us perfect (#15664).
quote:
There is a vast difference between claiming the Biblical truth of being able to live sinlessly ONLY with the help of Christ, and claiming that one is absolutely and completely perfected. Actually, he claims just the opposite, as do I.
Really.
Maybe you two should get your stories straight before you come on this thread supporting each other.
quote:
So set a goal to live sinlessly, even if for a fraction of time, and pursue
that goal with all your heart, soul, and strength, because no sane individual
would set a goal that they believe they will inevitably fail. If you do fail to live perfectly as God has commanded, do not think for a moment to excuse your failure because you believe it was inevitable. Set the goal to be perfect (as God has commanded), pursue that goal, and if you allow the Holy Spirit to guide you, you will accomplish that goal when you die, sister. If there's no possible way that you can accomplish that goal, then Christ's power is useless.
I think this describes the Christian life, brother.
The problem is drmark claims sinlessness is possible in the flesh.
No amount of Holy Spirit filling will make us sinless. That is glorification.
THAT is when we reach perfection. Not in this life.
But you're right, we should be growing in christlikeness in the meantime.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 8:14:06 AM
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drmark
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SureHope, thank you for your time and patience in responding to me in #15689 above. I perceive we have much more in common with our doctrinal understandings of sin and holiness than either of us realize. I am sorry that I seem unable to better communicate my position in words. I have found an article closely related to the issue we are discussing, namely how one who has been perfected in a past crisis event of entire sanctification continues to grow in grace and more Christlike maturity. Perhaps those words will be more effective than my words have been in clarifying Christian perfection in the W/H tradition. God bless and have a great day in the Lord!
THE PUZZLE OF PERFECTION: GROWTH IN JOHN WESLEY’S DOCTRINE OF PERFECTION
P.S. - The article begins on page 124 of 287
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 8:19:26 AM
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Reba
Posts: 665
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quote:
I don't think you quite understand me, Reba. If it is IMPOSSIBLE (let that word sink in for a moment) for you to stop sinning, then even the power of Christ is useless. Why? Because you just said that it was IMPOSSIBLE. Impossible simply means "not at all possible"--meaning even with Christ's power it is not possible, hence your declaration of it being impossible. Therefore, Christ's power would be weaker than the power of sin in your life, Reba. Your claims of sinlessness are with out merit . Show me one passage of a Biblical person who was sinless. Your whole quest is hypothetical. Do I wish to be sinless yup, am I ? nope. I am not perfect.
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Obviously, though, this is not true if you are a Christian. Tis by His power His Blood, His sacrifice, Not true if you’re a Christian? He came to save who, the perfect or the sinner? Perfect man would make Him of no need.
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And this is the only point drmark (and I for that matter) is trying to make. He's not trying to brag about his perfection, flaunt his perfection, or even elevate himself to a higher level than you.
You, here, in your defence of mark claim ‘his perfection” twice you did not claim Christ’s perfection in mark. A higher level then me?? This is not about me. That is a snark that is so far off track it has no meaning. I am but a sinner saved by grace. Each time I read you I see more of your man centered ideology.
quote:
He's simply trying to show you the truth of Christ's power in one's life to help that person live completely without sin. Show me one person who is with sin? Are you? is mark? Is my friend Ms. Monkey?
quote:
And if it is impossible to live without sin, then it is also impossible for Christ to help you stop sinning. They are both, in and of themselves, equally codependent statements.
Again you are showing you desire to control Christ with man’s will. Like most of us you wish your statements to be true. That does not make them so.
quote:
And placing drmark on block will solve nothing but make things much more confusing for everyone (and disallowing you from seeing his posts, causing misunderstandings in the future).
You and mark are perfect how ever could I cause you to be confused. quote:
If putting him on block will apparently help you "not distract the thread", then I think it speaks more of a self-control issue on your part than an arrogant and prideful agenda on his part.
Mark cannot be arrogant or prideful he has proclaimed himself perfect. Yup sometimes I could use some self control and sometimes one should speak up even if others don’t like to hear it.
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We are all commanded to come together in love and unity, and although we all are very passionate of certain doctrines opposing to each others, placing one on block will solve nothing. you have your opinion I have mine.
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God bless you, Reba, in your search for truth.
In Christ,
ZG
I too hope you can find truth.
_____________________________
Chapter and verse are posted so all may look up the context.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 8:22:27 AM
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drmark
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quote:
The problem is drmark claims sinlessness is possible in the flesh. How do you understand 1 John 3:4-10, rwe? What does Galatians 5:24 mean to you? How about 1 Peter 4:1? And if you don't believe three Apostles, then will you take Jesus at His word - John 8:36?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 8:37:11 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2696
Joined: 2/26/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
The problem is drmark claims sinlessness is possible in the flesh. How do you understand 1 John 3:4-10, rwe? What does Galatians 5:24 mean to you? How about 1 Peter 4:1? And if you don't believe three Apostles, then will you take Jesus at His word - John 8:36?
How do you understand 1 John 1:9?!?
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God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 9:16:09 AM
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drmark
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TC, you claim my scriptural interpretation makes you sick. As a physician, I have no desire to contribute to the ill health of anyone. Please find someone else to show you the correct understanding of 1 John 1:9 as it relates in context to the entire passage of 1:5 - 2:2. Thanks.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 9:51:24 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2696
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
TC, you claim my scriptural interpretation makes you sick. As a physician, I have no desire to contribute to the ill health of anyone. Please find someone else to show you the correct understanding of 1 John 1:9 as it relates in context to the entire passage of 1:5 - 2:2. Thanks.
In light of you being "perfect," I think you best explain how you can be "perfect" in light of what John is saying about sin in our lives.
In fact your interpretation of perfection is so lacking as it is, because the word "perfect" as you interpret it from Hebrews actually means complete, not perfect as in the state of sinlessness as you so assume.
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God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 3:38:31 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1770
Joined: 2/4/2008
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quote:
Your claims of sinlessness are with out merit . Show me one passage of a Biblical person who was sinless. Your whole quest is hypothetical. Do I wish to be sinless yup, am I ? nope. I am not perfect.
It is far from hypothetical because 1 Cor 10:13 and Gal 5:16 shows us that there is always a way to escape every sin. You don't believe this?
quote:
Tis by His power His Blood, His sacrifice, Not true if you’re a Christian? He came to save who, the perfect or the sinner? Perfect man would make Him of no need.
Who ever said that a man is, or can be, perfect before salvation? Who ever said that Christ saves perfect people? Please provide the post of anyone who literally said this, sister.
quote:
You, here, in your defence of mark claim ‘his perfection” twice you did not claim Christ’s perfection in mark.
Reba, how many times must we tell you "ONLY by the grace and power of Christ" for you to realize that not a single ounce of our perfection is merited to us? Most every time he or I bold that crucial statement...must I now size it up?
NEVER has he, or I, claimed perfection without Christ. Not a single time, sister.
quote:
That is a snark that is so far off track it has no meaning. I am but a sinner saved by grace. Each time I read you I see more of your man centered ideology.
First, there was not a single word of snark in my entire post. Reba, I know how offensive snarkiness is to you because we've spoken on separate occasions in the past, so I have made sure that my posts to you in this conversation were completely void of any snark. You have my word.
Second, I must tell you, with all due respect, that you read man centered theology in my posts because you can not see past the bias that you've developed against me. There is not a single word of man centered theology in the doctrine of sinless perfection AT ALL, sister. Not once have I ever claimed to be able to choose right without the power of Christ and the leading of the Holy Spirit. Not a single time have I ever erased the necessity of Christ's power in ever choice I make.
You need to see past your bias and read what I'm really saying. Once more, here it is.
Only by the grace of God, power of Christ, and leading of the Holy Spirit is it possible for me to stop sinning.
quote:
Show me one person who is with sin? Are you? is mark? Is my friend Ms. Monkey?
If there is only one thing that I hope you reply to, it is the following.
Is Christ's power sufficient enough to help a Christian stop sinning?
quote:
Again you are showing you desire to control Christ with man’s will. Like most of us you wish your statements to be true. That does not make them so.
You do not grasp the codependency of your POV. Consult your brother (I think that's who he said he was) quixote. This has nothing to do with man's will, Reba. If it is impossible, then that means even with Christ's power it is impossible. Sounds to me like you do not want to admit to that which is necessary if your POV is true.
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< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 9:41:36 PM
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Reba
Posts: 665
Joined: 8/18/2008
Status: offline
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We see things differently both believing we are correct.
We could interchange much of our posts. like this one Sounds to me like you do not want to admit to that which is necessary if your POV is true.
As for the snark I will except your word you did not intend a snark i just read it that way.
I do not read your posts with bias against you. You are not your theology. You are a sinner saved by grace that makes you a brother.
I did read mark with bias.
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Chapter and verse are posted so all may look up the context.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 9:44:20 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
You are a sinner saved by grace that makes you a brother. And e1ng is a saint sanctified by grace which makes him my brother. 
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 9:44:44 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2807
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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E1NG,
1. I think we agree sanctification is a definite, real process that is
guaranteed in the true believer.
As a result of what we have received, we don't accept it the sin we do.
It bothers us. We struggle but we also have victories over sin.
This is the Christian life: a struggle between flesh and Spirit.
Phil 3:12-14 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect,
but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by
Christ Jesus.
13Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Here's the thing: Being perfected is one thing.
Already having been perfected is something else: a false view.
2. The Problem of definitions. We know different theologies define the same
words as meaning different things. Sometimes our theology is founded on one definition. Sometimes the definition is founded on the theology.
So we say context rules, but we can't even agree on the context most of the time.
Example: All does not always mean all.
Until we can agree on the biblical definitions of the words "perfect"
and "sin", I think we are just throwing up posts at each other trying
to justify a position the other side dismisses as fundamentally flawed.
3. The Issue Addressed
No matter what you say, you cannot separate perfection from living a sinless life.
Saying we do not have to sin is a true, but hypothetical statement.
Saying we do not have sin is a blatantly false statement addressed in Scripture.
We know we will sin. Whether we want to or not is another issue.
But this is a fact, as long as we possess on atom of Adam in us, we will sin,
even if on rare occasion as we progress toward christlikeness.
You see, we possess a treasure in jars of clay.
4. Evidence and Assurance
If we progress along a road that brings us to eternal life,
then our progress along that road depends on how fast we are walking,
and whether how frequently stray from that path.
You said, quote, " If it is IMPOSSIBLE (let that word sink in for a moment) for you
to stop sinning, then even the power of Christ is useless."
You seem to think that if we deny it is possible to achieve a sinless state
we are somehow denying the power of Christ in our lives, which is not true.
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The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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