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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/24/2009 3:45:11 PM
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copybingo
Posts: 23
Joined: 10/15/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
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ORIGINAL: copybingo
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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
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ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Interesting way to put that...
Is it God's fault that you weren't born in Lithuania?
Is it God's fault that you weren't born a monkey or a pig or a housefly?
Is it God's fault that you are even alive and not just your composition: water and minerals?
God's fault? In a way. God's will? Yes.
But these are physical things. I thought being elect or not was a spiritual thing over which only God has control?
Is it God's will that some are elect and some are not? And if so, is God willing for the non-elect to perish in their non-elect state?
I believe the answer to your question is yes. The Calvinist position(I think) is that the Lord chooses some for election and as that occurs, the rest are passed over. However, it is not the state of "non-election" that causes one to perish. It's their sinful condition...the same condition that the elect find themselves in prior to election. It is only through the grace of God and only through His grace that saves the elect from the same fate as those passed over. Of course if you don't believe in the total sovereignty of God, then none of this makes much sense.
Except it is God's fault that they can never escape their sinful condition.
And since we do not have free-will, it is God's fault that they sinned in the first place.
14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are(Y) folly to him, and(Z) he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 1Cor 2:14
How can we choose God when our natural personhood does not accept the things of the Spirit of God? It can't be His fault...forgive even the thought. Sovereignty!!... I never mentioned free will. Sorry.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/24/2009 3:47:00 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
But you did not choose to be born or to be born a human or to be born in the USA. Had you not been born or born a human, then God would have exempted you from redemption. I cannot prove what happens to animals, but if you were never born at all, just remained "dust" then God would have been willing you to spend eternity without life, spiritual or otherwise.
True, if I had never been born then I wouldn't have to worry about whether I'm elect or not, or who else might be elect or not. But in fact, I was born a human in the USA, so that kinda makes your point moot, as far as I can tell.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/24/2009 3:53:18 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6377
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From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reba
God centered thinking says Thank you Lord for pulling me from the pit.
I do thank God for pulling me from the pit. But what I don't understand is why he didn't pull everyone from the pit. Surely you're not saying I should just be thankful that God pulled me from the pit and off to he** with everyone else?
Seem pretty self-centered to me, not God-centered.
I rescued a Labrador mix from the animal shelter. Even I cannot tell you why she won my heart and why I chose only her.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/24/2009 3:58:30 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6377
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
But you did not choose to be born or to be born a human or to be born in the USA. Had you not been born or born a human, then God would have exempted you from redemption. I cannot prove what happens to animals, but if you were never born at all, just remained "dust" then God would have been willing you to spend eternity without life, spiritual or otherwise.
True, if I had never been born then I wouldn't have to worry about whether I'm elect or not, or who else might be elect or not. But in fact, I was born a human in the USA, so that kinda makes your point moot, as far as I can tell.
As it does yours, as far as I can tell.
God's grace determines if you are born at all and if you are born human. That's God's grace and that's His sovereignty.
The strangest description I've come across of the elect is that God looked ahead in time and saw us choose Him and so He chose us. That makes us sovereign over God's choices...
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/24/2009 7:23:44 PM
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Reba
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Joined: 8/18/2008
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Exo 12:23 For Jehovah will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side-posts, Jehovah will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.
Gen 7:23 And every living thing was destroyed that was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and creeping things, and birds of the heavens; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only was left, and they that were with him in the ark.
Jos 6:21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, both young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.
No where have i avacated the*** to anyone else. I also do not question God. We do not understand because we are not God. Tis His grace that saves anyone..
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Chapter and verse are posted so all may look up the context.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/24/2009 11:52:39 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
As it does yours, as far as I can tell. Yeah, I though so too, after I had already posted it.
quote:
God's grace determines if you are born at all and if you are born human. That's God's grace and that's His sovereignty. I'm not convinced that it's God's grace that determines if I'm born at all. God's will, maybe, but I'm not sure it's grace.
quote:
The strangest description I've come across of the elect is that God looked ahead in time and saw us choose Him and so He chose us. That makes us sovereign over God's choices... I agree, that is a strange description.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/25/2009 1:44:32 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5094
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
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ORIGINAL: kelman
Oh, I appreciate the difference between the two. However, the fact remains there cannot be one without the other. If you are elect of God, it is guaranteed He will save you. If you are not elect of God, it is as equally guaranteed He will not save you.
So, is there any way to tell who's elect and who's not? When you firmly believe that you have become saved, then you would know you were elect. Aside from that, no one knows who is elect. God tells us how the tares and the wheat look so much alike they cannot be distinguished.
The main problem as I see it is salvation, many believe themselves to be saved because they've "done" something...they had faith, they accepted, been water baptized or do other good works.
quote:
And speaking of people who are not elect, is it ever possible for one of them to desire to be saved, but not be able to because they are not elect? Salvation is so completely of God that man's desire or even his faith does not play a role in election.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/25/2009 2:24:24 AM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1778
Joined: 2/4/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Reba
Exo 12:23 For Jehovah will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side-posts, Jehovah will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.
Gen 7:23 And every living thing was destroyed that was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and creeping things, and birds of the heavens; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only was left, and they that were with him in the ark.
Jos 6:21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, both young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.
No where have i avacated the*** to anyone else. I also do not question God. We do not understand because we are not God. Tis His grace that saves anyone..
You seem to assume questioning Calvinism = questioning God. A faulty premise will always produce a faulty conclusion(s), as shown in your post.
Perhaps you ought to question your theology also, Reba. It's quite easy to do with a few Scriptural passages and simple, unadulterated logic.
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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