RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (Full Version)

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JimboFletch -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 10:18:40 AM)

All I know on the issue is what Jesus said, "For of such is the Kingdom of Heaven." It would seem odd to me that Jesus would use excluded ones as the prime examples of the Kingdom citizens.



drmark -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 11:09:40 AM)

quote:

All I know on the issue is what Jesus said, "For of such is the Kingdom of Heaven." It would seem odd to me that Jesus would use excluded ones as the prime examples of the Kingdom citizens.
However, many commentators point out that Matt 19:14 uses the prepositional phrase "of such" (Greek twn toioutwn) to suggest it is the nature or character of a child (childlike humility as seen in Matt 18:4) that will be reflected in Heaven, not just the fact that such a one is prepubertal. Could the age of accountability then be the age at which a child loses their humble character?



GroupW -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 12:11:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ps103
We should leave them to the mercy of a loving God.


I used to wonder about all the theology involved in this question. I woke up one morning feeling exhausted by this and a host of other questions. I sat down, took a deep breath, and came to the following realization. God is just, but God is also good. He is love, and he is trustworthy.

If that much is true, then I really don't need to worry about it. God will provide for them in a way that is good and trustworthy.

I don't know the answer to the question, but I know God. And he is good.



GroupW -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 12:12:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

All I know on the issue is what Jesus said, "For of such is the Kingdom of Heaven." It would seem odd to me that Jesus would use excluded ones as the prime examples of the Kingdom citizens.


Interesting point.



Qtman -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 12:29:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ps103
We should leave them to the mercy of a loving God.


I used to wonder about all the theology involved in this question. I woke up one morning feeling exhausted by this and a host of other questions. I sat down, took a deep breath, and came to the following realization. God is just, but God is also good. He is love, and he is trustworthy.

If that much is true, then I really don't need to worry about it. God will provide for them in a way that is good and trustworthy.

I don't know the answer to the question, but I know God. And he is good.


Another good and honest answer. Thanks BT



GroupW -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 12:44:22 PM)

Honest, yes. Good? I don't know. I suspect that if I had a baby that passed away, that I might not find the answer 100% comforting. It's just the best answer that I have.

Thank God I've never have been tested on it!



Qtman -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 2:24:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW

Honest, yes. Good? I don't know. I suspect that if I had a baby that passed away, that I might not find the answer 100% comforting. It's just the best answer that I have.

Thank God I've never have been tested on it!


Honesty still prevails in your posts. I said earlier in this thread that I would find comfort in believing my child was in heaven. I don't know if it will be an issue when I get there but it makes me feel better while I am still here.



WhiteRoseBlessings -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 3:15:25 PM)

I have often thought and have even occasionally said that so many of the questions that we have here on earth will be very moot points in Heaven.

If someone finds comfort in believing something to which no Scriptural answer can definitively be found, then where's the harm?

Especially in regards to what happens to babies after they die.




I think stars are in order for Kate, Sam's and BT's posts.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 3:46:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qtman

This thread has really bothered me. There are those that say Yes babies go to heaven and there are those that say no babies don't go to heaven. There has been at least one that said babies go to hell.


Who has said no babies go to heaven?

Actually what you have is one group says babies as a group up to some never mentioned age are granted automatic salvation...

The other group believes babies like anyone can be saved according to the will and purpose of God... That would have some babies going to heaven, not all of them as a group apart from mankind...



SovereignIsHe -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 3:47:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

What age is that?
God knows every child's heart, SIH. Your theology above all others must acknowledge that fact!


How does your get past that fact that one must be born again?



SovereignIsHe -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 3:52:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

All I know on the issue is what Jesus said, "For of such is the Kingdom of Heaven." It would seem odd to me that Jesus would use excluded ones as the prime examples of the Kingdom citizens.


No group is excluded... No more than a group is saved apart from those God has raised from the dead. Christ used children as the example because they need everything and have little or nothing to offer in return... What do we have to offer God that He didn't have to first give us?



SovereignIsHe -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 3:56:19 PM)

quote:


ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings

I have often thought and have even occasionally said that so many of the questions that we have here on earth will be very moot points in Heaven.

If someone finds comfort in believing something to which no Scriptural answer can definitively be found, then where's the harm?

Especially in regards to what happens to babies after they die.


There is no harm in believing all babies go to heaven, though I believe if it's taught as biblical fact that is another story...



drmark -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 4:18:12 PM)

quote:

How does your get past that fact that one must be born again?
I'm more than certain that the God who raised Jesus from the tomb is more than capable of regenerating an infant. Did you not read my post #9? The operational term is "graciously efficacious"!



frankman -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 5:03:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

Only if you can remove little infants from mankind, which is said to be sinful and fall short of the glory of God... As well... Christ was adamant that one must be born again to see the Kingdom...



True, little infants are born sinful like all of us. In a way that makes them as lost as all of us, in which case they too would deserve hell. However we have to remember we have a God who is full of mercy and grace. So if infants are in heaven it is not because they`re perfect, innocent or sinless, but because of God`s amazing grace.

Until children are capable of understanding the fact that they need a Savior, how can they reject His grace by committing the sin of unbelief?

I believe the age of accountiblity may very with each child, depending on their level of their learning ability. If aborted babies will all be in heaven I`m not sure. I like to think so because God`s plan for our life begins at conception according to Jer.1:5. "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart". God`s will for all men is for them to be saved according to 1 Tim.2:4. "who wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth".

[sm=angel.gif] Praise God we have a merciful and gracious God.



CoeurdeLeon_ -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 5:54:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW

I used to wonder about all the theology involved in this question. I woke up one morning feeling exhausted by this and a host of other questions. I sat down, took a deep breath, and came to the following realization. God is just, but God is also good. He is love, and he is trustworthy.

If that much is true, then I really don't need to worry about it. God will provide for them in a way that is good and trustworthy.

I don't know the answer to the question, but I know God. And he is good.



Another good and honest answer. Thanks BT


quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW

Honest, yes. Good? I don't know. I suspect that if I had a baby that passed away, that I might not find the answer 100% comforting. It's just the best answer that I have.

Thank God I've never have been tested on it!

BT, as someone whose 3 1/2 month old son died 25 yrs ago, that is the only answer I've ever had either. It IS honest and it IS good.[:)]



GroupW -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 7:03:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
BT, as someone whose 3 1/2 month old son died 25 yrs ago, that is the only answer I've ever had either. It IS honest and it IS good.[:)]


Wow. I never knew. I'm not sure I'd survive that.

It explains something to me though. Everywhere I go, I run into people that just seem to "get it." Those are the people I respect & enjoy the most.

Invariably, those same people have undergone something traumatic that makes them what they are. I should have suspected you were one of "those people". [;)]

I'm truly sorry for what you went through 25 years ago, but I'm glad you emerged on the other side with the perspectives that you have. I wish you hadn't gone through all that, but selfishly I have to say that I sincerely enjoy the person that's resulted from all of it.

BT



SovereignIsHe -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 7:18:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

How does your get past that fact that one must be born again?
I'm more than certain that the God who raised Jesus from the tomb is more than capable of regenerating an infant. Did you not read my post #9? The operational term is "graciously efficacious"!


Him being capable is never the argument... He can and does but to say babies as a group are saved isn't founded in the bible...



WhiteRoseBlessings -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 7:25:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW

It explains something to me though. Everywhere I go, I run into people that just seem to "get it." Those are the people I respect & enjoy the most.

Invariably, those same people have undergone something traumatic that makes them what they are. I should have suspected you were one of "those people". [;)]

I'm truly sorry for what you went through 25 years ago, but I'm glad you emerged on the other side with the perspectives that you have. I wish you hadn't gone through all that, but selfishly I have to say that I sincerely enjoy the person that's resulted from all of it.

BT
I very much agree with this.

{{{Lioness}}}, my respect for you continues to grow.



GroupW -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 7:25:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

How does your get past that fact that one must be born again?
I'm more than certain that the God who raised Jesus from the tomb is more than capable of regenerating an infant. Did you not read my post #9? The operational term is "graciously efficacious"!


Him being capable is never the argument... He can and does but to say babies as a group are saved isn't founded in the bible...


Of course, finding a reference to say that he doesn't provide for them is an equal exercise in futility. In the end, you are left with God's love, goodness and grace. It's enough for me.



WhiteRoseBlessings -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 7:26:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

How does your get past that fact that one must be born again?
I'm more than certain that the God who raised Jesus from the tomb is more than capable of regenerating an infant. Did you not read my post #9? The operational term is "graciously efficacious"!


Him being capable is never the argument... He can and does but to say babies as a group are saved isn't founded in the bible...


Of course, finding a reference to say that he doesn't provide for them is an equal exercise in futility. In the end, you are left with God's love, goodness and grace. It's enough for me.
BT, my respect for you continues to grow, as well.

Excellent post.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 7:28:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: frankman

True, little infants are born sinful like all of us. In a way that makes them as lost as all of us, in which case they too would deserve hell. However we have to remember we have a God who is full of mercy and grace. So if infants are in heaven it is not because they`re perfect, innocent or sinless, but because of God`s amazing grace.



Ok... Why are you applying God's amazing grace to them in such a manner that they are granted salvation apart from the rest of mankind? Because you as you stated...

In your first post you said,

Our God is a loving and just God and will not sent anybody to hell unless they deserve to go there. Little infants are innocent angels in God`s eyes.

quote:

Until children are capable of understanding the fact that they need a Savior, how can they reject His grace by committing the sin of unbelief?


Wouldn't it be better to either hope they die and or keep the truth from them as long as possible so they stand a greater chance of being automatically saved?

quote:

I believe the age of accountiblity may very with each child, depending on their level of their learning ability.


Now we have salvation hinging on intellect not God's amazing grace... If the above is true it would be better for my children to have died at birth and not risk going to hell than to live... That is why I don't believe children are automatically saved...



JamesL5 -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 8:10:50 PM)

If this statement is true "all babies go to heaven," then I guess my 2 kids are better of dead than alive. If this sounds absurd, maybe because it is...........[sm=rollingeyes.gif]



SovereignIsHe -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 8:49:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW
Of course, finding a reference to say that he doesn't provide for them is an equal exercise in futility. In the end, you are left with God's love, goodness and grace. It's enough for me.



Given what we know about salvation does one have to find a reference to say that He doesn't provide for them?

It's no small thing to claim babies and or infants up to some never established age are saved. Normally when one makes such a claim the onus is on them to support their claim pretty thoroughly. All of what is known about salvation is tossed aside in order to grant them salvation which casts a good amount of doubt over the claim from the start...



CoeurdeLeon_ -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 8:52:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW

quote:

ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
BT, as someone whose 3 1/2 month old son died 25 yrs ago, that is the only answer I've ever had either. It IS honest and it IS good.[:)]


Wow. I never knew. I'm not sure I'd survive that.

It explains something to me though. Everywhere I go, I run into people that just seem to "get it." Those are the people I respect & enjoy the most.

Invariably, those same people have undergone something traumatic that makes them what they are. I should have suspected you were one of "those people". [;)]

I'm truly sorry for what you went through 25 years ago, but I'm glad you emerged on the other side with the perspectives that you have. I wish you hadn't gone through all that, but selfishly I have to say that I sincerely enjoy the person that's resulted from all of it.

BT

BT, that's maybe the highest compliment I've ever been paid. Thank you.


Sharon-Marie, thank you as well.

[sm=heart.gif]



bluestone -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 8:55:30 PM)

The very idea of infants, unable to speak or voice a trust in Jesus..who in fact have no knowledge of Him are writhing in horrible pain in the pits of hell is just ludicrous.

That would give God the characteristics of Satan. Evil and unforgiving.



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