RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (Full Version)

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MrFribbles -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 9:20:44 PM)

quote:

The very idea of infants, unable to speak or voice a trust in Jesus..who in fact have no knowledge of Him are writhing in horrible pain in the pits of hell is just ludicrous.

That would give God the characteristics of Satan. Evil and unforgiving.


What about the elderly Aztec who died half a year after Christ ascended into heaven? They would have no knowledge of Christ, and would have been equally unable to speak or voice a trust in Him.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 9:21:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

The very idea of infants, unable to speak or voice a trust in Jesus..who in fact have no knowledge of Him are writhing in horrible pain in the pits of hell is just ludicrous.

That would give God the characteristics of Satan. Evil and unforgiving.


Given your statement how do you reconcile the flood(where not doubt babies and infants drowned) and God's commanded to Joshua to put men, women and children(babies) to the sword? Given the statements in regards to babies and infants on this thread by some it would seem that there should have been provision made for them in the flood and at Jericho...

Are we sure Jesus cannot minister to those that we can't? Are we attributing our lack of ability to God in regards to those we say cannot voice their trust is Jesus? Isn't salvation a spiritual awaking, not some intellectual experience where man finally gets it?



bluestone -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 9:25:27 PM)

Does it ever say that those babies put to the sword went to hell? Perhaps God knew that for them to die quickly was better than to be left to the jackals or starvation after Joshua's army moved on?



SovereignIsHe -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 9:31:07 PM)

I wish to make on thing clear...

I believe that salvation is in the hand of God and no matter how old one is they are no less in need of God's grace... Salvation isn't about intellect, or making the right choice, it's about unmerited favor... From the womb to our last breath we are all the same, sinners who are at the mercy of God... God doesn't see little angels, He sees mankind, sinners, short of His glory and subject to vanity by His decree... Whomever He chooses to save is according to His will and purpose, regardless of age, stature and or anything else... There is no criteria that we must meet, since there is nothing we can do in order make ourselves better than the next guy, cause in the eternal side of things it will not suffice, and that is evident by that fact that God had to send His only begotten to pay the price. Temporally we make choices, and work out our salvation, but only because God granted whomever mercy according to eternal decree... In the end a person who is 93 on their deathbed is no less in need of God's mercy than a newborn infant...



FolkSingerBlues -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 9:32:54 PM)

The only biblical answer for this is that God is compassionate, loving and just.
Anything beyond that is speculation, speculation that is based on our belief on who God is and how he exercises his compassion, love and justness.

In those opinions...liberty.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 9:38:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

Does it ever say that those babies put to the sword went to hell?


They were treated like everyone else in the city... Same with the Flood...


quote:

Perhaps God knew that for them to die quickly was better than to be left to the jackals or starvation after Joshua's army moved on?


If mercy killing is of God it would seem a lot of Christians owe Jack Kevorkian and Terri Schiavo's husband an apology...

If the children of Jericho were innocent enough to be granted salvation what just cause did Joshua have to put them to the sword? For that matter why weren't they just put on the ark, God could have just snapped His finger replaced the animals...



SovereignIsHe -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 9:40:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues

The only biblical answer for this is that God is compassionate, loving and just.
Anything beyond that is speculation, speculation that is based on our belief on who God is and how he exercises his compassion, love and justness.

In those opinions...liberty.


That is the only biblical answer for anyone's salvation, correct?



FolkSingerBlues -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 10:07:02 PM)

Well John, in some ways yes, in other ways no.
There is quite a bit more information concerning those who more developed than infants and children.



bluestone -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 10:25:23 PM)

John, Do you believe that all infants that have died through the ages are now roasting in eternal torment in hell?
Do you really believe that ? That God burns babies?
tha Coerdeleon's baby is in hell? That the dead children of other believers in these threads are in hell right now?

Yes or no



MrFribbles -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 10:36:33 PM)

bluestone,
If you have time, I would appreciate your thoughts on my question. I will repeat it here:
What about the elderly Aztec who died half a year after Christ ascended into heaven? They would have no knowledge of Christ, and would have been equally unable to speak or voice a trust in Him.



bluestone -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 10:43:17 PM)

I believe Christ makes Himself known to all people capable of understanding. Those who undertand can choose to accept or reject.

And has grace and mercy to cover those who can't.



drmark -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 10:43:42 PM)

quote:

They would have no knowledge of Christ, and would have been equally unable to speak or voice a trust in Him.
Romans 1:18-32 seems to indicate otherwise, MrF! I am unable to read "unaccountable infants" into any of these verses. Are you?



MindySue69 -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 10:47:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

quote:

The very idea of infants, unable to speak or voice a trust in Jesus..who in fact have no knowledge of Him are writhing in horrible pain in the pits of hell is just ludicrous.

That would give God the characteristics of Satan. Evil and unforgiving.


What about the elderly Aztec who died half a year after Christ ascended into heaven? They would have no knowledge of Christ, and would have been equally unable to speak or voice a trust in Him.


What about Ruth, Boaz, Rahab, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses - all people who died looooong before Christ. Are they in hell?

Personally I believe that people who had a heart that sought the true Creator found Him. I don't believe a just God would condemn babies that didn't know any better to Hell.

On another note:

{{{{Couer De Leon}}}}}



GroupW -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 10:47:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

They would have no knowledge of Christ, and would have been equally unable to speak or voice a trust in Him.
Romans 1:18-32 seems to indicate otherwise, MrF! I am unable to read "unaccountable infants" into any of these verses. Are you?


I've always found that section to be particularly intriguing as did, I think, C.S. Lewis.

Paraphrasing Lewis - "Some people are a lot further from Christ than they know, and some are much closer than they think."

BT



MrFribbles -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 10:53:12 PM)

bluestone,
quote:

I believe Christ makes Himself known to all people capable of understanding. Those who undertand can choose to accept or reject.

And has grace and mercy to cover those who can't.


Then why are we, as Christians, striving so hard to reach those people groups in the world who have never heard the gospel?

drmark,
quote:

Romans 1:18-32 seems to indicate otherwise, MrF!


It says they have a knowledge of God, and good and evil, not of the gospel of Christ.

quote:

I am unable to read "unaccountable infants" into any of these verses. Are you?


I am not. "All" is used, not "those who are of a certain age and can be held accountable."

I'm curious as to what happened to the clear commands in Scripture which teach that faith in Christ is the only way to heaven in the post-Pentecost (arguably, post-incarnation) world.


MindySue,
quote:

What about Ruth, Boaz, Rahab, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses - all people who died looooong before Christ. Are they in hell?


They are not, but as for exactly why, you'll get different answers from different people. Personally, I like Genesis' answer - they believed, and it was credited to them as righteousness.


*edited to clarify whom I was replying to, and to add additional content*



FolkSingerBlues -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 10:57:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

John, Do you believe that all infants that have died through the ages are now roasting in eternal torment in hell?
Do you really believe that ? That God burns babies?
tha Coerdeleon's baby is in hell? That the dead children of other believers in these threads are in hell right now?

Yes or no

John doesn't need me to defend him so I won't. However I would encourage you to seek understanding on his POV before you jump to a conclusion about what he is saying. I don't agree with him POV, but it is nonetheless somewhat correct. (not that I am 100% correct...lol)



bluestone -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 11:05:06 PM)

I have read the entire thread. I do see the POV. Salvation through Christ alone. Baby has not been able to respond to Christ, off to hell the baby goes.

forget mercy. forget grace. forget the God of compassion. He tosses the babies to Satan.

I would like to know if any church or denomination endorses the concept that infants go to hell. Any?



MindySue69 -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/26/2008 11:05:12 PM)

How do you know, then, MrFribbles, that the old Aztec man didn't "believe" much like Rahab "believed" ?

I'd like to know how a just and MERCIFUL God can send people to hell unless they at least had a chance to reject - how could they reject something they never heard? Paul said that nature itself speaks of God so nobody is without excuse; that would tell me that even by observing nature, someone can find and believe God - and seek Him, and know Him...otherwise Paul's statement makes no sense.

Why do we have to tell people about Jesus? Because Jesus told us to.



bob97 -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 12:25:33 AM)

Psalms 51:1 - 10 (KJV) 1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. 2 Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. 4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. 6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. 7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.


I never did get a responsible to Psalms 51 other than that of TrustingChrist and the verses quoted by him really did not apply to the context of what David is saying. Is this a part of the word of God that people would just as soon ignore?

Bob



MindySue69 -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 12:31:13 AM)

Nobody is denying that babies are born with a sin nature. I'm not sure what your point is ?



greatdivide46 -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 6:35:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

Psalms 51:1 - 10 (KJV) 1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. 2 Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. 4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. 6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. 7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.


I never did get a responsible to Psalms 51 other than that of TrustingChrist and the verses quoted by him really did not apply to the context of what David is saying. Is this a part of the word of God that people would just as soon ignore?

Bob

How do we know that the "iniquity" and "sin" in verse 5 is referring to the baby and not to the mother? Just curious. [:)]



JamesL5 -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 7:10:46 AM)

greatdivide46,

The word "I" is a personal pronoun referring to oneself. So it should be obvious that the writer is referring to himself and not his mother. [;)]


Bob97,

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalms 51:5). This is a excellent verse you brought up to prove that we are all born sinners through Adam. [;)]



MindySue69 -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 7:41:01 AM)

It could be "I was created in an environment of iniquity" and "in sin did my mother conceive me" could be that both his parents were sinful creatures - meaning that he is the offspring of sinful creatures - not necessarily that he him self was sinful in the womb.

Or maybe David was expressing himself in such a way with hyperbole as to say "I'm so sinful, I was sinful before I was even born" in order to stress that yes, he is a SINFUL SINFUL man...

And before anyone says that the Bible doesn't use hyperbole or other poetic tricks, let's read Song of Solomon, or tell me if Job truly cared for orphans and widows from the womb and from his youth? (Job 31:16-18 - in vs. 18 he claims to have cared for widows from the womb.)

Just a thought....



drmark -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 8:02:17 AM)

quote:

It says they have a knowledge of God, and good and evil, not of the gospel of Christ.
And so you're suggesting that the Gospel has nothing to do with knowing God and the difference between good and evil?

quote:

I am not. "All" is used, not "those who are of a certain age and can be held accountable."
Romans 1:32 clearly states that "all" know the decree of righteousness, "all" understand that disobedience deserves death, "all" continue to sin, and "all" approve of others' disobedience. And so you're suggesting that infants and unnacountable children do all these things?

The case for accountability is clearly evident to those who read the text at face value!



bluestone -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 8:21:12 AM)

I think DrMark nailed it on the head.



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