RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (Full Version)

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MrFribbles -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 8:51:13 AM)

MindySue,
quote:

Why do we have to tell people about Jesus? Because Jesus told us to.


That's a pretty sorry reason. God gives us commands for a reason, and it is never "because I said so."
I ask you, how can you believe that someone can have a saving faith in light of passages such as Romans 10:14-15 (and 17, if you'd like), John 14:6 and Acts 4:2?

drmark,
quote:

And so you're suggesting that the Gospel has nothing to do with knowing God and the difference between good and evil?


Of course it does, but that's not all it is. If the deity, death, burial, resurrection, etc., (in other words, the saving work of Christ) is not presented, how can it really be considered the gospel?



drmark -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 9:15:07 AM)

quote:

quote:

Why do we have to tell people about Jesus? Because Jesus told us to.

That's a pretty sorry reason. God gives us commands for a reason, and it is never "because I said so."
MrF, I think you're misunderstanding MindySue's point. God will save believers by grace, not because we have told anyone about Jesus! That He chooses to use our feeble efforts in the process is both a wonderful privelege and an humbling responsibility.

quote:

Of course it does, but that's not all it is. If the deity, death, burial, resurrection, etc., (in other words, the saving work of Christ) is not presented, how can it really be considered the gospel?
Same answer as above! We are saved by grace, not some magical recitation of essential Christologic doctrine. (Can you believe this staunch Arminian is saying such things [;)])



JimboFletch -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 9:50:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

All I know on the issue is what Jesus said, "For of such is the Kingdom of Heaven." It would seem odd to me that Jesus would use excluded ones as the prime examples of the Kingdom citizens.


No group is excluded... No more than a group is saved apart from those God has raised from the dead. Christ used children as the example because they need everything and have little or nothing to offer in return... What do we have to offer God that He didn't have to first give us?

Sure the group is excluded if being born again is, as you state, must be applied to those unable to understand the Gospel. Unless you have an alternative method for a 3 month old baby to be saved, then you must exclude them all. Do you have an alternative method that might save a few but not all? Or is your position that God only allows unelect babies and small children to die?



bluestone -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 9:53:09 AM)

I will ask again: Does anyone belong to a church or denomination, or know of one that teaches that dead babies go to hell?



MrFribbles -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 9:57:59 AM)

bluestone,
quote:

Does anyone belong to a church or denomination, or know of one that teaches that dead babies go to hell?


I do. Or did, since I moved recently. It was a non-denominational.

drmark,
quote:

God will save believers by grace, not because we have told anyone about Jesus!


If I understand you correctly - of course we aren't saved through evangelizing, but Scripture seems clear in teaching that we must preach the gospel if others are going to receive salvation.
Look at Genesis 12:1-3. God does not say that He will be blessing the people's of the earth independently. Rather, He makes it clear that it is through human agents that His blessings are brought forth for us.

quote:

We are saved by grace, not some magical recitation of essential Christologic doctrine


By grace, yes, but grace through faith. If God simply saved people with grace, then there would be no need of hell.



GroupW -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 9:58:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
We are saved by grace, not some magical recitation of essential Christologic doctrine. (Can you believe this staunch Arminian is saying such things [;)])


I think that makes you a Calminian or Arvinist. I don't know which one.



MrFribbles -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 10:26:41 AM)

quote:

I think that makes you a Calminian or Arvinist. I don't know which one.


Whichever one God pre-ordained him to choose. ; )



Him4all -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 10:42:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

Psalms 51:... 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.


I never did get a responsible to Psalms 51 other than that of TrustingChrist and the verses quoted by him really did not apply to the context of what David is saying. Is this a part of the word of God that people would just as soon ignore?

Bob


What's your definition of an iniquity?

bluestone,

quote:

I will ask again: Does anyone belong to a church or denomination, or know of one that teaches that dead babies go to hell?


I was born, raised as a Catholic, and if memory serves me correct unbaptized babies go to hell, and if not hell, then purgatory which is like a temporary hell where "those who 'die in grace' expiate their sins by suffering."

DR



JamesL5 -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 10:49:43 AM)

JimboFletch,

Based on the sermon that my pastor once gave on (Matthew 19:14), I have to agree with SovereignisHe on the meaning of this verse.

"Jesus, however, said, "Let the little children come to me, and stop keeping them away, because the kingdom of heaven belongs to people like these." If my memory serves me correct, my pastor said Jesus was not speaking literally when he said "little children," but rather like an example or metaphor. Meaning the kingdom of heaven belongs to people who have hearts like little children, a heart of humbleness and humility. Thanks.



GroupW -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 10:55:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JamesL5

Jimbo,

Based on the sermon that my pastor once gave on (Matthew 19:14), I have to agree with SovereignisHe.

"Jesus, however, said, "Let the little children come to me, and stop keeping them away, because the kingdom of heaven belongs to people like these." If my memory serves me correct, my pastor said Jesus was not speaking literally when he said "little children," but rather like a metaphor or hyperbole. Meaning the kingdom of heaven belongs to people who have hearts like little children, a heart of humbleness and humility. I hope this makes sense. Thanks.


13Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
14Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." 15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.


To me, it seems clear that his comment was specifically directed at the disciples and was specifically regarding children. I think it's fair to extrapolate Jesus' comments to encompass adults with a childlike faith, but the primary reference seems to be the kids that were brought before him.



MindySue69 -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 11:03:57 AM)

Hyperbole is an exaggeration. Just for the record.



MindySue69 -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 11:05:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JamesL5

GroupW,

I see where you are coming from but I feel much safer relying on my pastor's interpretation of (Matthew 19:14). Thanks. [:)]


Why not search the Holy Spirit for HIS interpretation?



bluestone -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 11:11:44 AM)

Catholics do teach a brief stop in purgatory for children ifmy memory serves correctly, but I am referrring to protestant denominations.



Kat_D -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 11:25:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone,

Does anyone belong to a church or denomination, or know of one that teaches that dead babies go to hell?


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
I do. Or did, since I moved recently. It was a non-denominational.


Praise God you got out![:'(]



Qtman -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 12:19:27 PM)

I chose to leave this senseless debate. None of us no a definitive answer to the OP. There are several people on these forums who have suffered the loss of a baby and some of these post are very insensitive and uncalled for. After much consideration and prayer I have blogged about this topic and explained how and why I came to my conclusions. If anyone is interested click on the link in by siggy. I you are not interested don't click the link.



drmark -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 12:20:43 PM)

quote:

By grace, yes, but grace through faith. If God simply saved people with grace, then there would be no need of hell.
There is "no need of hell", MrF, since all may be saved if they choose to believe! Babies and the unaccountable cannot choose, by definition. Thus, God does indeed simply save people with and by His grace, through faith - Eph 2:8. When does a child develop the capacity for faith, MrF?

quote:

To me, it seems clear that his comment was specifically directed at the disciples and was specifically regarding children. I think it's fair to extrapolate Jesus' comments to encompass adults with a childlike faith, but the primary reference seems to be the kids that were brought before him.
Actually, I responded to this passage back in post #27:
quote:

However, many commentators point out that Matt 19:14 uses the prepositional phrase "of such" (Greek twn toioutwn) to suggest it is the nature or character of a child (childlike humility as seen in Matt 18:4) that will be reflected in Heaven, not just the fact that such a one is prepubertal. Could the age of accountability then be the age at which a child loses their humble character?
I have seen no response to my concept that Jesus was primarily referring to the humble nature of the kids, not their ages. Any takers?



JimboFletch -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 12:31:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JamesL5

JimboFletch,

Based on the sermon that my pastor once gave on (Matthew 19:14), I have to agree with SovereignisHe on the meaning of this verse.

"Jesus, however, said, "Let the little children come to me, and stop keeping them away, because the kingdom of heaven belongs to people like these." If my memory serves me correct, my pastor said Jesus was not speaking literally when he said "little children," but rather like an example or metaphor. Meaning the kingdom of heaven belongs to people who have hearts like little children, a heart of humbleness and humility. Thanks.

Oh, I know what He was saying. I only observed that it seems odd to me that Jesus would use excluded ones as the prime examples of the kinds of citizens that will comprise the Kingdom. I mean, His choice of example exhibits the traits He was commending, right?

Or was Jesus' choice of example simply faulty and His theology sadly flawed?



MrFribbles -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 1:05:14 PM)

quote:

Thus, God does indeed simply save people with and by His grace, through faith - Eph 2:8. When does a child develop the capacity for faith, MrF?


You say God saves people by grace, through faith. And if an infant does not have faith, how can you then say they receive grace? Where, in Scripture, does it say that those who cannot choose receive salvation by default?



Him4all -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 1:31:32 PM)

drmark,

quote:

I have seen no response to my concept that Jesus was primarily referring to the humble nature of the kids, not their ages. Any takers?


JamesL5's post 85 seems to agree with humbleness. And I also think your concept is the point being made by Jesus. He certainly isn't talking about their naivety which could be mistaken as 'faith'. Nor do I think He is referring to their immaturity. The OT even notes the curse of having a child as a ruler. But maybe He is also referring to their innocent and still sensitive spirits being drawn to Him and His spirit.

DR



MindySue69 -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 1:37:44 PM)

quote:

The OT even notes the curse of having a child as a ruler.


Except of course, Josiah, probably one of the most just kings ever....



Him4all -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 1:45:18 PM)

MrFribbles,

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

quote:

Thus, God does indeed simply save people with and by His grace, through faith - Eph 2:8. When does a child develop the capacity for faith, MrF?


Where, in Scripture, does it say that those who cannot choose receive salvation by default?


1TI 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

The addition of that one word "especially" might make this verse qualify.

DR



Ps103 -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 1:46:13 PM)

Mr. Fribbles, I am responding to your question about the Aztec.

Again, such a person is left to the mercy of a loving God, Who created said Aztec in His image. He knows the heart of the Aztec and will deal with him accordingly.

It is none of our business how God chooses to deal with people who have never heard of Him, it is His business, and He is more than capable of attending to His business.

The one thing that is clear is that it does not apply to *us*. We *have* heard, and we will be held accountable for our knowledge and what we do with it.

Speculation about such things is just that, and hardly profitable[;)] (Not knocking this thread or anyone's response.)



SovereignIsHe -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 1:56:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues

Well John, in some ways yes, in other ways no.
There is quite a bit more information concerning those who more developed than infants and children.


How many forms of salvation is there?



SovereignIsHe -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 2:05:55 PM)

quote:


RIGINAL: bluestone

John, Do you believe that all infants that have died through the ages are now roasting in eternal torment in hell?


Nope and I made it clear that I don't believe ALL infants are not hell... I am not of any group that believe infants are treated as a group either way...


As I stated prior...

I believe that salvation is in the hand of God and no matter how old one is they are no less in need of God's grace..



Whomever He chooses to save is according to His will and purpose, regardless of age, stature and or anything else..

In the end a person who is 93 on their deathbed is no less in need of God's mercy than a newborn infant...


That's pretty clear that I don't believe ALL infants are in hell... Given your question I can only conclude you are purposely ignoring what I have posted...

quote:

Do you really believe that ? That God burns babies?


God being not a respecter of persons burns folks of all ages...


quote:

tha Coerdeleon's baby is in hell? That the dead children of other believers in these threads are in hell right now?


Yes or no


I have never said a child of a believer is in hell, nor implied that... I believe the children of those who believe are saved... Which is why I mention the flood and Jericho..



SovereignIsHe -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 2:13:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

I have read the entire thread. I do see the POV. Salvation through Christ alone. Baby has not been able to respond to Christ, off to hell the baby goes.

Strange... Since I posted this in a response to you...


Are we sure Jesus cannot minister to those that we can't? Are we attributing our lack of ability to God in regards to those we say cannot voice their trust is Jesus? Isn't salvation a spiritual awaking, not some intellectual experience where man finally gets it?


Just because you don't believe Jesus can minister to children, or the mentally handicapped of whomever doesn't mean the I or others don't... I don't subscribe to the salvation via intellect theory and firmly believe that Christ can and does minister to whomever He chooses and age, and or lack of ability isn't an issue for Him...


quote:


forget mercy. forget grace. forget the God of compassion. He tosses the babies to Satan.


More... From Post 54... Forget mercy? Is all about mercy... Nobody is saved without, regardless of age...

I believe that salvation is in the hand of God and no matter how old one is they are no less in need of God's grace... Salvation isn't about intellect, or making the right choice, it's about unmerited favor... From the womb to our last breath we are all the same, sinners who are at the mercy of God... God doesn't see little angels, He sees mankind, sinners, short of His glory and subject to vanity by His decree... Whomever He chooses to save is according to His will and purpose, regardless of age, stature and or anything else... There is no criteria that we must meet, since there is nothing we can do in order make ourselves better than the next guy, cause in the eternal side of things it will not suffice, and that is evident by that fact that God had to send His only begotten to pay the price. Temporally we make choices, and work out our salvation, but only because God granted whomever mercy according to eternal decree... In the end a person who is 93 on their deathbed is no less in need of God's mercy than a newborn infant...

It's all about mercy... The difference is I don't set aside children as a group, I believe that whomever is saved is pretty much saved as you believe children are saved...



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