RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me

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SovereignIsHe -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 2:25:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch All I know on the issue is what Jesus said, "For of such is the Kingdom of Heaven." It would seem odd to me that Jesus would use excluded ones as the prime examples of the Kingdom citizens. No group is excluded... No more than a group is saved apart from those God has raised from the dead. Christ used children as the example because they need everything and have little or nothing to offer in return... What do we have to offer God that He didn't have to first give us? Sure the group is excluded if being born again is, as you state, must be applied to those unable to understand the Gospel. Unless you have an alternative method for a 3 month old baby to be saved, then you must exclude them all. Do you have an alternative method that might save a few but not all? Or is your position that God only allows unelect babies and small children to die? As I have stated here and before in these threads I believe Christ can minister to those WE can't... Salvation is a spiritual matter and even the actions of those able to understand the Gospel happen because of God's handy work not because the people understand... The understanding stems from God not man... I believe the above is more inline with the word of God than simply saying God is love therefore all babies are saved or that because they are innocent He saves them. Really this comes down to what you believe regarding salvation... I believe God saves whomever He so chooses. While others believe that man makes a choice of God or not... Which of the above views of salvation can accept those who some consider unable to respond to the spiritual calling of God?

SovereignIsHe -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 2:35:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Qtman I chose to leave this senseless debate. None of us no a definitive answer to the OP. There are several people on these forums who have suffered the loss of a baby and some of these post are very insensitive and uncalled for. After much consideration and prayer I have blogged about this topic and explained how and why I came to my conclusions. If anyone is interested click on the link in by siggy. I you are not interested don't click the link. There is nothing insensitive about expressing a point of view... Anyone who has lost a child and cannot deal with such discussion should be weary of participating these threads... For awhile here I didn't even scan over threads of rape regarding children because I knew I'd come unglued given what was sometimes posted. The thread topic is going to bring various views so I unless someone is posting they take joy in children dieing and or being sent to hell I don't where this is an issue.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 2:38:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GroupW quote: ORIGINAL: JamesL5 Jimbo, Based on the sermon that my pastor once gave on (Matthew 19:14), I have to agree with SovereignisHe. "Jesus, however, said, "Let the little children come to me, and stop keeping them away, because the kingdom of heaven belongs to people like these." If my memory serves me correct, my pastor said Jesus was not speaking literally when he said "little children," but rather like a metaphor or hyperbole. Meaning the kingdom of heaven belongs to people who have hearts like little children, a heart of humbleness and humility. I hope this makes sense. Thanks. 13Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." 15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there. To me, it seems clear that his comment was specifically directed at the disciples and was specifically regarding children. I think it's fair to extrapolate Jesus' comments to encompass adults with a childlike faith, but the primary reference seems to be the kids that were brought before him. If you are going to get specific, wouldn't that simply the children He was speaking of, that being the ones there?

drmark -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 3:20:53 PM)
quote: The thread topic is going to bring various views so I unless someone is posting they take joy in children dieing and or being sent to hell I don't where this is an issue. Thank you for that sensitive response, SIH. [8\|]

MrFribbles -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 4:38:48 PM)
Ps103, quote: Again, such a person is left to the mercy of a loving God, Who created said Aztec in His image. He knows the heart of the Aztec and will deal with him accordingly. It is none of our business how God chooses to deal with people who have never heard of Him, it is His business, and He is more than capable of attending to His business. I quite agree. And if God chooses to let some, or all, people into heaven who never heard the gospel, then I will be delighted. The more people in heaven, the better! I'm just trying to present what I believe is a biblical view of things - something I believe everyone else on this thread is trying to do, as well. I just happen to fall on the unpleasant side of the fence. But again, I agree that really, none of us will know for sure until we get to ask God in person. MindySue, quote: The addition of that one word "especially" might make this verse qualify. It might, but if that were the case, then this verse would teach, or at least support, universal salvation - something I am entirely uncomfortable with.

GroupW -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 4:53:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: GroupW quote: ORIGINAL: JamesL5 Jimbo, Based on the sermon that my pastor once gave on (Matthew 19:14), I have to agree with SovereignisHe. "Jesus, however, said, "Let the little children come to me, and stop keeping them away, because the kingdom of heaven belongs to people like these." If my memory serves me correct, my pastor said Jesus was not speaking literally when he said "little children," but rather like a metaphor or hyperbole. Meaning the kingdom of heaven belongs to people who have hearts like little children, a heart of humbleness and humility. I hope this makes sense. Thanks. 13Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." 15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there. To me, it seems clear that his comment was specifically directed at the disciples and was specifically regarding children. I think it's fair to extrapolate Jesus' comments to encompass adults with a childlike faith, but the primary reference seems to be the kids that were brought before him. If you are going to get specific, wouldn't that simply the children He was speaking of, that being the ones there? Not at all. You'd have a case there if it weren't for the phrase that follows - "for of such is the kingdom of heaven." Yes, it starts with the children in front of him, but to me is explicitly expanded by that phrase to the children not in front of him and from there can be extrapolated to others of any age with a child like faith. It's an interesting use of language - simultaneously specific and general. Artfully done, actually.

GroupW -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 5:00:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe There is nothing insensitive about expressing a point of view... Anyone who has lost a child and cannot deal with such discussion should be weary of participating these threads... Yes, I think such a person would indeed be very weary. 1) There is a time and a place for raw logic, debate and intellectual give-and-take. 2) To know if this is the time and place, it's necessary to understand who is asking the question and why, and who else might be reading the thread. 3) I don't think we've completely answered #2. 4) So given 1) through 3), I think a certain level of circumspection is desirable. I think I've stated my case - and thanks to QT & the rest of you here for some good counsel as well. I'm going to follow QT's wise example and leave the rest to others. Enjoy the day, folks. It's always too short. BT

SovereignIsHe -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 5:42:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drmark quote: The thread topic is going to bring various views so I unless someone is posting they take joy in children dieing and or being sent to hell I don't where this is an issue. Thank you for that sensitive response, SIH. [8\|] You really think anyone here takes joy in the above?

SovereignIsHe -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 5:43:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GroupW quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: GroupW quote: ORIGINAL: JamesL5 Jimbo, Based on the sermon that my pastor once gave on (Matthew 19:14), I have to agree with SovereignisHe. "Jesus, however, said, "Let the little children come to me, and stop keeping them away, because the kingdom of heaven belongs to people like these." If my memory serves me correct, my pastor said Jesus was not speaking literally when he said "little children," but rather like a metaphor or hyperbole. Meaning the kingdom of heaven belongs to people who have hearts like little children, a heart of humbleness and humility. I hope this makes sense. Thanks. 13Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." 15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there. To me, it seems clear that his comment was specifically directed at the disciples and was specifically regarding children. I think it's fair to extrapolate Jesus' comments to encompass adults with a childlike faith, but the primary reference seems to be the kids that were brought before him. If you are going to get specific, wouldn't that simply the children He was speaking of, that being the ones there? Not at all. You'd have a case there if it weren't for the phrase that follows - "for of such is the kingdom of heaven." Yes, it starts with the children in front of him, but to me is explicitly expanded by that phrase to the children not in front of him and from there can be extrapolated to others of any age with a child like faith. It's an interesting use of language - simultaneously specific and general. Artfully done, actually. Actually it more like child like needs...

SovereignIsHe -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 5:56:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GroupW quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe There is nothing insensitive about expressing a point of view... Anyone who has lost a child and cannot deal with such discussion should be weary of participating these threads... Yes, I think such a person would indeed be very weary. 1) There is a time and a place for raw logic, debate and intellectual give-and-take. 2) To know if this is the time and place, it's necessary to understand who is asking the question and why, and who else might be reading the thread. 3) I don't think we've completely answered #2. 4) So given 1) through 3), I think a certain level of circumspection is desirable. I think I've stated my case - and thanks to QT & the rest of you here for some good counsel as well. I'm going to follow QT's wise example and leave the rest to others. Enjoy the day, folks. It's always too short. BT I have been on this forum about eight years and it never fails that someone gets bent over this topic... If this thread isn't the time and a place for raw logic, debate and intellectual give-and-take I believe anyone who took part in it and now objects is the pot calling the kettle black. If we can never answer #2 I suggest those who struggle with this topic petition the forum leadership to have the subject banned if that is truly the case.

LBolt -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 6:14:18 PM)
You know, after reading Exodus 20, where it talks about visiting the iniquities of the fathers upon the children to the 4th generation...I wonder does this effect a child's or infant's eternal abode? I hope that are saved and in heaven. Romans 5 tells us that God is soveriegn and has mercy on who He wills and who are we to question an absolutely soveriegn God? Mr. Fribs, you may have a point...This is something that only Yah can decide and because He's the shot caller and Master...

GroupW -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 6:19:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe I have been on this forum about eight years and it never fails that someone gets bent over this topic... If this thread isn't the time and a place for raw logic, debate and intellectual give-and-take I believe anyone who took part in it and now objects is the pot calling the kettle black. If we can never answer #2 I suggest those who struggle with this topic petition the forum leadership to have the subject banned if that is truly the case. Yeah, weird isn't it. Just makes ya' wonder.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/27/2008 10:36:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GroupW quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe I have been on this forum about eight years and it never fails that someone gets bent over this topic... If this thread isn't the time and a place for raw logic, debate and intellectual give-and-take I believe anyone who took part in it and now objects is the pot calling the kettle black. If we can never answer #2 I suggest those who struggle with this topic petition the forum leadership to have the subject banned if that is truly the case. Yeah, weird isn't it. Just makes ya' wonder. What I wonder if some people just come into these threads to get mad and post rants...

drmark -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/28/2008 8:50:00 AM)
quote: It might, but if that were the case, then this verse would teach, or at least support, universal salvation - something I am entirely uncomfortable with. I don't get it. How does God's grace allowing for young children and the mentally unaccountable to be saved have anything to do with universal salvation? The Parable of the Workers in Matt 20:1-16 clearly indicates that the duration of our saving faith is irrelevant to the reward of eternal life. Some of you are beginning to sound like the early workers who grumbled about full pay for the latecomers. Is your salvation "better" because you had the choice to reject it? Did the owner of the vineyard have his foreman pay all who did not agree to work? That would have been universal salvation!

Him4all -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/28/2008 10:06:47 AM)
LBolt, quote: ORIGINAL: LBolt You know, after reading Exodus 20, where it talks about visiting the iniquities of the fathers upon the children to the 4th generation...I wonder does this effect a child's or infant's eternal abode? Personally I don't think iniquities have a thing to do with one's eternal abode. More likely they have to do with one's temporal abode. The most poignant examples I can give would be the body maladies of a 'crackhead' baby, or a baby with fetal alcohol syndrome. Less clear would be the 'genetic predisposition' to have some physical/body or mental/soul condition. And even less obvious would be the spiritual temptations to commit heinious crimes ect. because that particular demon/spirit has a legal right to 3/4 generations of the bloodline unless someone 'breaks' that iniquity...before having their own children. drmark, quote: I don't get it. How does God's grace allowing for young children and the mentally unaccountable to be saved have anything to do with universal salvation? I get it! And, as I've read Mrfribbles questions throughout this thread I'm surprised at his 'discomfort'. Actually, I thought he might have already had 'uni' leanings, and that was why he asked the questions he asked. Apparently I was wrong. As for Matt 20:1-16? I don't think that parable has anything to do with 'going' to heaven. I think it has everything to do with the rewards one gets after they 'get' to heaven. Verse 16 doesn't say "the last get in and the first don't." 16 So the last will be first, and the first last." It's just telling them which row they'll be in, when standing before the throne of God. BTW I think the throne room fills up from the last row first. [:D] No scripture for that, just an opinon. [;)] DR

drmark -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/28/2008 10:39:38 AM)
quote: As for Matt 20:1-16? I don't think that parable has anything to do with 'going' to heaven. I think it has everything to do with the rewards one gets after they 'get' to heaven. Verse 16 doesn't say "the last get in and the first don't." Well, I respectfully disagree, Him4all. If all the workers received the identically same wage of one denarius, how could that represent variable rewards in heaven? No, the teaching is clear to me - whether we receive grace early in infancy or on our deathbed, the end result is a fair day's wage. Whether the Atonement is "graciously efficacious for the salvation of the irresponsible and for the children in innocency but is efficacious for the salvation of those who reach the age of responsibility only when they repent and believe", the end result is Heaven!

MrFribbles -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/28/2008 10:59:07 AM)
quote: I don't get it. How does God's grace allowing for young children and the mentally unaccountable to be saved have anything to do with universal salvation? MindySue brought up a specific verse in 1 Timothy. I was responding to that verse, not the concept of salvation of the unaccountable as a whole.

Him4all -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/28/2008 2:52:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drmark Well, I respectfully disagree, Him4all. If all the workers received the identically same wage of one denarius, how could that represent variable rewards in heaven? No, the teaching is clear to me - whether we receive grace early in infancy or on our deathbed, the end result is a fair day's wage. Whether the Atonement is "graciously efficacious for the salvation of the irresponsible and for the children in innocency but is efficacious for the salvation of those who reach the age of responsibility only when they repent and believe", the end result is Heaven! I love "respectful" disagreement. [:)] I understand your position and quite honestly hold that POV as regards 'one level' of biblical understanding but not at another level. I believe scripture can be read literally, symbolically, and spiritually. As pertaining to your above points I see validity in your POV, as it pertains to one who accepts at an early age versus one who accepts on his deathbed. Grace to enter into "heaven" is equal for both. That's an acceptable POV to me concerning the parable, but it still has some difficulties IMO. You didn't address the difficulty I pointed out concerning verse 16. How does that fit your interpretation. For me it gives your POV an inconsistency based upon what I said earlier: quote: "Verse 16 doesn't say "the last get in and the first don't." It says they all get in IMO. Just some with greater 'honor' for 'longer' work done. Also, in the Matt parable the "householder" wasn't inviting people into his house. He was leaving his house/heaven and going to hire people to work in his vineyard/world. I look at that as us becoming servants of God and working here. And it just seems 'like God' to reward those who worked 'longer' with their reward later, when we are invited into His house/heaven. Just some thoughts. What do you think? DR I had to go back and edit out the unintentional 'quote' of the whole post.

LBolt -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/28/2008 3:38:59 PM)
Him4all, here's another scenario, what about in the scriptures in the TaNaKH where Yah gave Israel the command to kill everyone, animal, child,... example I think is Samuel and Saul? I like you I hope that all infant who die experience salvation, in fact I personally belief they do, I'm just can not say so definitively like I used to.

frankman -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/28/2008 4:01:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: frankman True, little infants are born sinful like all of us. In a way that makes them as lost as all of us, in which case they too would deserve hell. However we have to remember we have a God who is full of mercy and grace. So if infants are in heaven it is not because they`re perfect, innocent or sinless, but because of God`s amazing grace. Ok... Why are you applying God's amazing grace to them in such a manner that they are granted salvation apart from the rest of mankind? Because you as you stated... In your first post you said, Our God is a loving and just God and will not sent anybody to hell unless they deserve to go there. Little infants are innocent angels in God`s eyes. I should explain this just a little bit clearer as to why I believe infants are saved not because they`re perfect, innocent or sinless, but because of God`s amazing grace. First of all no baby is born perfect, innocent or sinless because according to Rom.5:12 we are all born under the condemnation of Adam`s sin. "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-". [sm=growlwarning.gif] That`s why babies die. That`s why we will all die someday too. So the reason why infants are saved if they die before they reach the age of accountability is only because God credits their sin to Christ; and because they are too young to believe, the requirement of personal faith is waived. [sm=icon_smile_question.gif] How do we know this to be true? Because this is such a sensitive issue and I don`t want to mislead anyone, I cheated a little and got this answer and this Bible verse from a teacher at Moody Bible. The Bible verse I got was Matt.18:10. "See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of My Father in heaven". In this verse Jesus saw children as being in close priximity to God and the kingdom of heaven. That`s how close children are to the heart of God. That is why it would be against God`s nature to condamn them to hell. That`s amazing grace! So to those of you who lost infants, rejoice. Even though your heart aches for them now, some day soon you will have the opportunity of holding that little one in your arms again. The late great Bible teacher James Vernon McGee even went as far as to say that these babies will then grow up in heaven in the care of their parents. [:)] May death be swallowed up in victory. (1 Cor.15:54-57)

Him4all -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/28/2008 5:10:15 PM)
LBolt, quote: I like you I hope that all infant who die experience salvation, in fact I personally belief they do, I'm just can not say so definitively like I used to. I like the above 'bold' part of your quote. I have learned over the years to hold 'most' of what I believe in an open hand. A hand that still has enough control to not be "double minded" but not so much control that the Spirit of truth can't intervene and take me someplace others can't...or won't go. frankman, I 'respectfully disagree' [:)] with your understanding of Rom 5:12. It doesn't say we're born with sin. It says we die because we sin. I don't think a baby is born with sin...only the nature 'to sin'. And sin they will, it's just a question of time IMO. I think your quote of Matt 18 is similar to what I said about children being spiritually more sensitive to the 'God' than one is, after becoming more and more of a sinner. But I don't believe that sensitivity in any way qualifies them 'more' to a place in heaven, than it would to a converted adult sinner who did "become like a child"...therfore allowing 'their angel' to once again behold the face of the Father. I know I'm speculating a bit with that thought, but Jesus did tell us to become like children so I'm assuming it's possible. DR

JamesL5 -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/28/2008 9:02:10 PM)
In my opinion, I rather hear the truth. I don't want someone telling me what I want to hear, rather what I need to hear. I want people to be honest and straightforward with me. And if you honestly can't answer the question, just say "I don't know," that is perfectly fine.

DreadPirateRandy -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/28/2008 9:17:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ps103 Babies never have the chance to reject Christ. Precisely. I will never believe that such a gracious and merciful God would send a newborn to hell. Despite it being born into sin, after the very few minutes of life, what true sins has it committed compared to someone who is willfully ignorant to reject Christ?

PeterD -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/28/2008 9:58:07 PM)
Good evening, 1 Corinthians 7:12-16 12To the rest I say (I, not the Lord) that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. 13If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. 14For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. 15But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace. 16For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife? 16For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife? or A baby or infant died ,does He will save or not ?... What does this mean in verse 14... 14For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. What is Paul saying about the children, "but as it is, they are holy" What does this mean in full? and does it relate to Leviticus 20:26 Leviticus 20:26 26 You shall be holy to me, for I the LORD am holy and have separated you from the peoples, that you should be mine. PeterD

MrFribbles -> RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me (8/28/2008 10:21:09 PM)
quote: I will never believe that such a gracious and merciful God would send a newborn to hell. Despite it being born into sin, after the very few minutes of life, what true sins has it committed compared to someone who is willfully ignorant to reject Christ? Is it the degree of one's sin that condemns a person? If so, where do we draw the line?

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