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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/4/2008 11:08:35 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
...we reduce or truncate salvation into nothing more than a ticket out of hell and into heaven. Emerging, you have just put in a nutshell a major problem with american evangelism.
If one is to adequately discuss this subject one must take into account the various biblical covenants, (and God always relates to man on the basis of a covenant) and how each was entered into.
Romans 11 has much to say about the nature of the New Covenant, and how we as gentile believers relate to it.
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[Deleted] - 9/4/2008 11:18:00 AM
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[Deleted] - 9/4/2008 11:19:42 AM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/4/2008 11:25:40 AM
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DaveW
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I am sorry but I do not see your "wide hope" as being scriptural.
We are transfered from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light at new birth, which is accomplished by salvic faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus. That is the jist of the salvic part of the New Covenant. Romans 11 describes it as being cut from a wild olive tree and grafted into the cultivated one. Where did the cut branch start out? on the wild olive tree, i.e. the kingdom of darkness, i.e. not saved. While salvation is available to all, only those who place faith in Messiah will be able to use it.
Remember, when the bible says "all," sometimes it means only a remnant.
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Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
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[Deleted] - 9/4/2008 11:36:00 AM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/4/2008 1:00:44 PM
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DaveW
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Romans 11 says point blank "all Israel shall be saved." Yet we see Jews who are rebelious to the Lord not making it.
He saved all Israel from Egypt but everyone over the age of 20 died in the wilderness with only 2 exceptions.
Paul says these are all examples to us.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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[Deleted] - 9/4/2008 1:04:34 PM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/4/2008 4:32:32 PM
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frankman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
If in Adam ALL have sinned what does it mean that in Christ ALL are saved?
peace.
I believe you are referring to Rom.5:18 so I`ll quote it. "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnnation for ALL men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification the brings life for ALL men." ALL have sinned is easy to explain because Ps.51:5 tells us we are all born in sin as infants. For "Him4all`s"sake I`ll quote this verse from the NLT this time instead of the NIV. "For I was born a sinner- yes, from the moment my mother conceived me." However the phrase "that in Christ ALL are saved" refers only to all those who have received God`s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness as clearly explained in the previous verse which I will now also quote. Rom.5:17 "For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God`s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ". The first "ALL" in Rom.5:18 is universal, the second "ALL" is provisional upon receiving Christ as our Savior and Lord.
Now we believe infants are saved if they die before they reach the age of accountibility as God credits their sin to Christ because they are to young to believe as I explained in Posts #8 + #120.  Now at what age that may be, please don`t ask me because I have no idea.
Now to your other point, does this also apply to those who die without ever having the opportunity to hear the Gospel or the name of Jesus? First of all, I can only post what the Bible teaches us. Acts 4:12 tells us this about the name of Jesus. "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved". It is only by faith in Jesus that we can be saved. Now will those who die without ever hearing the name of Jesus get a second chance?  Sorry; the Bible doesn`t teach the second chance theory anywhere. So if I were to teach it, I may be teaching something contrary to Scripture. However there are Scripture verses that seem to hint that children are already part of God`s kingdom as I posted in my previous posts.
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"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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[Deleted] - 9/4/2008 5:02:20 PM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/4/2008 5:20:38 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
I am new here and haven't read this entire thread. Are babies or infants embraced by God should they die prematurely? Yes.
What do you mean by prematurely?
quote:
In the same way we can speak with confidence that those who are mentally handicapped and unable to express the name of Christ in this temporal state.
Salvation is a spiritual awaking...
quote:
In Christ God did something decisive in history. As Paul says in Romans, if in one man (Adam) all have sinned how much more than is all mankind saved through the second adam, Christ? We are saved because of the finished work of Christ on the cross and his defeat of sin and death. Period. To say that babies or the mentally handicapped are not saved is to make one's salvation dependent upon us, not God. Thank God it is not up to us.
Are you speaking of universalism?
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John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/4/2008 5:23:17 PM
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Catholicandloveit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
This is a great mystery and one that should put us in great awe of the God whose love knows no bounds, who desires that none should perish and stops at nothing to find that one lost sheep.
peace.
I never understand why people try to limit Gods Mercy and Love. I have always been taught that to question/judge Gods Love for another puts ones own soul in serious trouble.
Pax
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Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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[Deleted] - 9/4/2008 5:30:39 PM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/4/2008 5:40:44 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
This is a great mystery and one that should put us in great awe of the God whose love knows no bounds, who desires that none should perish and stops at nothing to find that one lost sheep.
peace.
I never understand why people try to limit Gods Mercy and Love. I have always been taught that to question/judge Gods Love for another puts ones own soul in serious trouble.
Pax
Actually if you really think about this thread is all about the limits of God's mercy... Nobody is talking about automatic salvation for all, but for just babies and infants...
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John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/4/2008 5:46:43 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
Sov-
Prematurely from our perspective. Ever talk to a couple who lost an infant?
What does man's perspective have to do with it?
quote:
What do you mean by saying salvation is a spiritual awakening? Is that all it is?
That's the foundation and the temporal extends from the foundation... One acts because of salvation, not to gain it...
quote:
Am I talking about universalism? No...
Ok... You said WE are saved because of the finished work of Christ on the cross and his defeat of sin and death. Period.
I suspect we is the body of Christ?
To say that babies or the mentally handicapped are not saved is to make one's salvation dependent upon us, not God. Thank God it is not up to us.
If it's up to God why are all babies and the mentally handicapped saved, yet others are not? Why them and not everyone else?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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[Deleted] - 9/4/2008 5:55:23 PM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/4/2008 7:39:09 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
What foundation?
The foundation of salvation is a spiritual awaking... Not some intellectual coming to understanding about something...
quote:
As to your question about man's perspective I am not sure what point you are trying to make, if any. It would help, perhaps, if you didn't just lob one phrase here and there. A conversation, if this is one, deserves more than that.
The point I making is that man's perspective has no bearing on this... I haven't lob anything, I asked a question, a direct one...
You know, if you don't wish to discuss this just say so, but please don't start taking me to task about lobbing phrase here and there and defining terms.
quote:
I said this is not about universalism and what I meant to say or perhaps should have said is it is not in the way you are probably defining it. Perhaps it would help if you would define your terms. What does universalism mean?
The belief that all are saved... Given the context of subject what else could it be referring to?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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[Deleted] - 9/4/2008 8:06:34 PM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/4/2008 9:10:50 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6370
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
You seem to be nitpicking over my use of the word "premature" and I don't know why .
Nope... I asked direct questions and gave direct answers... I have NO idea where you get nitpicking from... Given what has been posted it's not I who has nitpicked anything...
quote:
I asked if you ever sat with a couple that has lost an infant. As a pastor, I have.
What bearing does it have on the subject?
quote:
From a human perspective, it is "premature" as naturally we all want our loved ones to live a long, full life. From God's perspective, however, it may or may not be "premature."
I don't see how can be one or the other from God's perspective...
quote:
Can we move on?
No problems on this side...
quote:
As to what else you can be referring to that is simple: when most people speak of "universalism" they generally mean all paths lead to God. That is not what I am saying.
I guess we don't hang with the same people since where I from universalism speaks to the belief that God saves everyone and in this thread that is context it used... A web search of term will bring many examples of what I spoke of...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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[Deleted] - 9/4/2008 9:25:06 PM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/4/2008 9:48:39 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6370
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
So as you can see, it is necessary to know from where one is coming from before you just answer "are you talking about universalism"? I would say that your simple definition of it does not say enough.
I say the context of the conversation lays it out just fine...
quote:
But to the topic, what do you say God's posture is towards infants who die or to the mentally handicapped?
The same to all of mankind.... You can scroll back and read what has already been posted...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/4/2008 9:54:44 PM
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MrFribbles
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emergin,
Given your varied definitions of universalism, perhaps it would be better to ask it this way - will all people, regardless of their faith in Christ on this earth, be allowed into heaven in the next life?
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"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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[Deleted] - 9/4/2008 10:02:13 PM
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[Deleted] - 9/4/2008 10:14:00 PM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/4/2008 10:17:19 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6370
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
The same to all of mankind.... You can scroll back and read what has already been posted...
Shall I take from this that you are not really interested in having a conversation?
I asked what I think is a simple question based on the OP. Why not just offer your take?
thanks.
I said I believe He sees as the same as all mankind... And I mentioned you can scroll back and read what has already been posted... I have about dozen post here explaining my view... I have offered my take... Why not sift through them and get an idea of where I am coming from... Or even respond to my answer to your question... You seem bent on having a confrontation with me for whatever reason...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/4/2008 10:18:35 PM
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ladioffaith
Posts: 3172
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FIRST THINGS FIRST ... I am sorry for your loss.
I have heard many learned preachers teach on an "age of accountability." That's not to say a child's salvation is not genuine if it is earlier ... just that I honestly do not believe God would condemn a child for something he is not old enough to understand.
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~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The LORD your God is with you, he is mighty to save.
He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with
his love, he will rejoice over you with singing." Zeph. 3:17
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