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RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man - 9/12/2008 2:10:29 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
But the point is that sin, carnality, the old nature, whatever you wish to call it is NOT biologically transmissable. It is a spiritual characteristic, not a physical trait. So you are saying that not having a biological father was NOT the reason Jesus did not have a sin nature?
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RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man - 9/12/2008 10:27:51 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6366
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TrustingChrist
I really do not know just how to answer that. I have no ideal what you mean by sin nature. I do not think that we are born in sin. I do not think that we inherit sin from others. I do know that Adam caused a fallen world. I do know that we will sin. I just can not say that God created us in a condition that we have no choice but to sin if that is what is meant by a sin condition. I know that we have and will sin but it was not because we were born to do so it is because we gave in to sin. I am still studying through this to get a better understanding of it.
Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man - 9/13/2008 9:39:22 AM
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drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
Also - to the point about Jesus - he certainly could have sinned. If he could not have sinned than he was not tempted. The glory of the drama played out in the Incarnation is that in Jesus Christ a perfect "yes" was resounded back to God, answering in obedience to God's perfect "yes" to creation. emerging, I would welcome your input on the Could Jesus Have Sinned? thread. Your and my position appears to be the minority view on Christ's temptability.
quote:
So you are saying that not having a biological father was NOT the reason Jesus did not have a sin nature? Wow, a triple negative! No Dave, I'm saying that having a sin nature has nothing to do with biology. Are you saying that Jesus was a clone of His mother because He had no paternal chromosomes? Come on, genetics has no relevance in this discussion!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man - 9/14/2008 9:22:09 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3800
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Wow, a triple negative! It don't make me no nevermind.quote:
I'm saying that having a sin nature has nothing to do with biology. Are you saying that Jesus was a clone of His mother because He had no paternal chromosomes? Come on, genetics has no relevance in this discussion! Actually, that was my point.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
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RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man - 9/14/2008 5:51:42 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
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Okay, I thought I had made it rather more clearly in post #50. Thanks for muddying the waters. 
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man - 9/21/2008 1:09:31 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1709
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Thessa
quote:
ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod
quote:
ORIGINAL: Thessa
I have a sort of related question - - -
This may seem odd to some of you, but until being online i had never heard of the trinity before until about a month ago.
Ive always believed that Jesus is the Son of God and God is a seperate being and that was that.
Is this not true? Is Jesus God? How does that work and if thats true then why does Jesus say what he says on the cross before he dies? Who is he talking to? Himself? It dosent make sense to me...im really trying to understand this.
Did you get your question answered? It looks as if you did not? Which saying are you referring to that Jesus said on the cross before He died?
I am just trying to clarify
No i didnt get my question answered. I was looking on here hoping i did. lol
Im talking about when he said this 'My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?'
The answer to your question is really quite simple. The Godhead comprises God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. God the Son took upon Himself sinless Manhood in order to become the Lamb of God who would offer Himself as a sacrifice for sin.
In order to experience the full penalty for sin in His own body, soul and spirit, He also experienced separation from the Father while on the Cross. Therefore He cried out -- My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken meÉ Here the Son addressed the Father as God, just as in Heb. 1:8, the Father addresses the Son as God.
Is this *understandable* by human beingsÉ Not too well. Is it necessary that we *understand* everything pertaining to God fullyÉ The answer is *No*. (Sorry but the question marks are being changed for some reason).
The Holy Trinity (the triune Godhead) and the Deity of Christ are divine mysteries which must be accepted in simple faith. Man simply cannot explain God.
As for the question, Could Jesus have sinnnedÉ The answer is emphatically *No*. Since He was -- and is -- fully God and fully *sinless Man*, He could never have sinned.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 9/21/2008 1:18:13 AM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man - 9/21/2008 1:16:13 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1709
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
Also - to the point about Jesus - he certainly could have sinned. If he could not have sinned than he was not tempted.
This is a fallacy that continues to be repeated over and over again, even after the correct reasons for it being a fallacy are provided. Christ was tempted -- unlike human beings -- "apart from sin". Which means that while the temptations were real, there was absolutely nothing in Christ -- who is "separate from sinners" -- to respond to those temptations.
This may be a concept difficult to grasp until one remembers that Jesus of Nazareth was at one and the same time fully God and fully sinless Man.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man - 9/21/2008 10:14:47 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 521
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
Also - to the point about Jesus - he certainly could have sinned. If he could not have sinned than he was not tempted.
This is a fallacy that continues to be repeated over and over again, even after the correct reasons for it being a fallacy are provided. Christ was tempted -- unlike human beings -- "apart from sin". Which means that while the temptations were real, there was absolutely nothing in Christ -- who is "separate from sinners" -- to respond to those temptations.
This may be a concept difficult to grasp until one remembers that Jesus of Nazareth was at one and the same time fully God and fully sinless Man.
...and there was nothing in Adam for sin to appeal to either.
When Jesus Christ walked this earth He never functioned in His own divinity. He functioned exactly as the first Adam, a true human being without the sin nature, and indwelt by the Spirit of God. It was not Jesus's divinity that made Him sinless until death, for He had stripped Himself of His divine privileges.
"Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained,
But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being. Philippians 2:6-7
Jesus Christ shows us man as God intended man to be. What enabled Jesus Christ to remain sinless was that He was completely man, and He was completely man because He was completely available to His Father. (John 8:29, among others)
Where the first Adam failed, Jesus succeeded, because He was never, at any moment, not dependent upon God the Father. It was God the Father who worked in and through Christ, just as now it is Christ who works in and through us, as we make ourselves available to Him.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man - 9/21/2008 11:01:32 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
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Great concept and verbalization of it, URF. With your permission, I'm going to reference some of this post over on the "Could Jesus Have Sinned?" thread. I'm struggling a bit to explain how peccability does not negate Christ's divinity.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man - 9/26/2008 8:43:59 AM
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drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
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I have no idea where your coming from, robertwilliams, since this is your very first post. BUT, I can say emphatically that "success in an individual" has nothing to do with "maximum efforts" by the individual once they have fully submitted their entire being to the Lordship of Christ! As URF posted in #60 above, it is Christ's Spirit that works in and through us to achieve whatever success God wills in our lives. This submission to Him is the antithesis of us taking "total and absolute RESPONSIBILITY for our station in life"!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man - 3/5/2009 9:31:44 PM
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vew
Posts: 27
Joined: 12/6/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Thessa
I have a sort of related question - - -
This may seem odd to some of you, but until being online i had never heard of the trinity before until about a month ago.
Ive always believed that Jesus is the Son of God and God is a seperate being and that was that.
Is this not true? Is Jesus God? How does that work and if thats true then why does Jesus say what he says on the cross before he dies? Who is he talking to? Himself? It dosent make sense to me...im really trying to understand this.
Thessa, what I have found is, if someone is reading the Bible for the first time....they will not come up with the idea of a Triune God. It is simply that people have been taught this and therefore will go to any length to try and justify the teaching.
Now the Catholic Church teaches the trinity doctrine as the central doctrine of their faith. Yet , note what the New Catholic Encyclopedia states: "The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, cettainly no t fully assimilated into Christain life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. but it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title THE TRINITARIAN DOGMA. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."---(1967), Bvol. XIV, P.299. Here the Catholic Church admits that this is not a Bible teaching. Was not taught by Jesus and his early followers.
The New Encyclopedia Britannica says: "Neither the word Trinity, not the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament; "Hear I Isreal: The Lord our God is one Lord" (Deut. 6:4.)....The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies....By the end of the 4th century....(some three hundred years after the death of Jesus and his apostles)....the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since."----(1976), Micropaedia, Vol. X, p.126.
Also, John L. McKenzie, S.J>, in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: "Thetrinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of 'person' and 'nature' which are GREEK philosophical terms; actually the terms fo not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as 'essence' and 'substance' were erroneously applied to God by some theologians." 9New York, 1965) p.899.
In short the Trinity Doctrine is not a Bible teaching....It was formulated long after the death of the Bible writers.
If you have any questions about what I have written here, please feel free to state them. I welcome others questions....they often make me think of things that I hadn't thought of before.
_____________________________
You Will Know The Truth and The Truth Will Set You Free.
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RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man - 3/5/2009 9:51:18 PM
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vew
Posts: 27
Joined: 12/6/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
Also - to the point about Jesus - he certainly could have sinned. If he could not have sinned than he was not tempted.
This is a fallacy that continues to be repeated over and over again, even after the correct reasons for it being a fallacy are provided. Christ was tempted -- unlike human beings -- "apart from sin". Which means that while the temptations were real, there was absolutely nothing in Christ -- who is "separate from sinners" -- to respond to those temptations.
This may be a concept difficult to grasp until one remembers that Jesus of Nazareth was at one and the same time fully God and fully sinless Man.
...and there was nothing in Adam for sin to appeal to either.
When Jesus Christ walked this earth He never functioned in His own divinity. He functioned exactly as the first Adam, a true human being without the sin nature, and indwelt by the Spirit of God. It was not Jesus's divinity that made Him sinless until death, for He had stripped Himself of His divine privileges.
"Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained,
But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being. Philippians 2:6-7
Jesus Christ shows us man as God intended man to be. What enabled Jesus Christ to remain sinless was that He was completely man, and He was completely man because He was completely available to His Father. (John 8:29, among others)
Where the first Adam failed, Jesus succeeded, because He was never, at any moment, not dependent upon God the Father. It was God the Father who worked in and through Christ, just as now it is Christ who works in and through us, as we make ourselves available to Him.
Peace
Good post. VEW
_____________________________
You Will Know The Truth and The Truth Will Set You Free.
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RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man - 3/5/2009 10:05:58 PM
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vew
Posts: 27
Joined: 12/6/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Thessa
I have a sort of related question - - -
This may seem odd to some of you, but until being online i had never heard of the trinity before until about a month ago.
Ive always believed that Jesus is the Son of God and God is a seperate being and that was that.
Is this not true? Is Jesus God? How does that work and if thats true then why does Jesus say what he says on the cross before he dies? Who is he talking to? Himself? It dosent make sense to me...im really trying to understand this.
Hi Thessa....I replied to your post earlier. Hope I was of some help. I find that the Trinity doctrine raises mutiple questions in the minds of thinking individuals. Such as:
If Jesus is God:
1-Why is Jesus called the "Firstborn of all creation? Col. 1:15; Rev. 3:14
2-Why did he say he did not comr of his "own initiative" but was "sent forth? John 8:42
3-Why did Jesus not know the "day and hour" of the Great Tribulation, but God did? Matt24:36
4-Who did Jesus speak to in prayer?
5-How did he "appear before the person of God for us?" Heb. 9:24
6-Why did Jesus say "the Father is greater than I am"? John 14:28
7-Who spoke to Jesus at the time of his baptism saying "this is my son"? Matt.3:17
8-How could he be exalted to a superior postion? Php.2:9,10
9-How can he be the "mediator between God and man"? 1Tim.2:5
10-Why did Paul say that "the head of the Christ is 'God"? 1Cor 11:3
11-Why did Jesus "hand over the Kingdom to his God" and subject himself to God" 1Cor 15:24,28
12-Who does he refer to as "my 'God and your God?" John 20:17
13-How does he sit at God's right hand"? Ps. 110:1; Heb. 10:12,13
14-Why does John say "no man has seen God at any time"? John 1:18
15-Why did people not die when they saw Jesus"? Ex. 30:20
Just some food for thought.
< Message edited by vew -- 3/6/2009 9:29:58 AM >
_____________________________
You Will Know The Truth and The Truth Will Set You Free.
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RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man - 3/6/2009 10:24:41 AM
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vew
Posts: 27
Joined: 12/6/2007
Status: offline
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Also - to the point about Jesus - he certainly could have sinned. If he could not have sinned than he was not tempted. [/quote]
This is a fallacy that continues to be repeated over and over again, even after the correct reasons for it being a fallacy are provided. Christ was tempted -- unlike human beings -- "apart from sin". Which means that while the temptations were real, there was absolutely nothing in Christ -- who is "separate from sinners" -- to respond to those temptations.
This may be a concept difficult to grasp until one remembers that Jesus of Nazareth was at one and the same time fully God and fully sinless Man.
[/quote]
...and there was nothing in Adam for sin to appeal to either.
When Jesus Christ walked this earth He never functioned in His own divinity. He functioned exactly as the first Adam, a true human being without the sin nature, and indwelt by the Spirit of God. It was not Jesus's divinity that made Him sinless until death, for He had stripped Himself of His divine privileges.
"Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained,
But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being. Philippians 2:6-7
Jesus Christ shows us man as God intended man to be. What enabled Jesus Christ to remain sinless was that He was completely man, and He was completely man because He was completely available to His Father. (John 8:29, among others)
Where the first Adam failed, Jesus succeeded, because He was never, at any moment, not dependent upon God the Father. It was God the Father who worked in and through Christ, just as now it is Christ who works in and through us, as we make ourselves available to Him.
Peace
[/quote]
My answer (VEW) I agree that Christ was indeed perfect, seperate from sinners. Just as Adam was perfect until he caved into temptation. This is in fact the reason that Jesus is called the "second Adam".
"For until the law (through Moses) sin was in the world,.....nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned after thelikeness of the transgression of Adam, who bears a resemblance to him that was to come." Here Paul alludes to the coming of one like Adam, a second Adam. Romans 5:13,14; 1Corinthians 15:45
Now let's consider this one occasion when Jesus was "tempted by the Devil", Jesus did not question Satan's role as the ruler of this world. The Bible explains what happened: "The Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdooms of the world and their glory, andhe said to him: "All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me." Then Jesus said to him: 'Go away, Satan!" Matthew 4:1,8-10.
Think about this. Satan tempted Jesus by offering him "all the kingdoms of the world." Yet, would Satan's offer have been a real temptation if Satan was not actually the ruler of these kingdoms? Or, would Satan's offer have been a real temptation if nothing in Jesus was capable of responding? No, it would not. And note, Jesus did not deny that all these worldy governments were Satan's, which he would have done if Satan did not have power over them. The Bible actually identifies Satan the Devil as the unseen ruler of this world! The Bible, in fact, calls him "the god of this system of things." 2Corinthians 4:4.
Now let me ask you this: If I offered you $1000,000,000 dollars to preform some act for me, and there simply is nothing in you that would allow you to respond to my offer....would that really be a temptation? And, if I do not actually have any where near the $1000,000,000 that I offered you and you knew that I couldn't pay up....would that be a temptation?
Absolutely not! Therefore, the only logical conclusion that we can come to is that Satan is real, he has the power over the governments of this world, and Jesus was really tempted and capable of resisting....Just as the first Adam was tempted and capable of resisting..though he did not....VEW
_____________________________
You Will Know The Truth and The Truth Will Set You Free.
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